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Lloyd Chambers S2 Review

robmac

Well-known member
Good points, but in Lloyd's case the vast majority of his work is with manual focus Leica, Zeiss glass on the D3X, D3S, IR converted 5DII (IIRC) and the M9. I agree that AF is only good for so much, BUT that said, if as someone said earlier, you pay into an AF camera system, especially one in this snack bracket, one would expect it to work well - within the context of it's intended use and capabilities (e.g. single center point AF system or 'True Focus' vs the 101 point/85 mode AF systems on some SLRs).

In his latest update he (Lloyd) quite obviously loves the IQ (vs the D3X) when manually focused. His issues with the S2 don't pertain to the obvious results expected when combining Nth percentile lenses with a CCD large sensor lacking an AA filter -- something you'd see in any MFDB system bolted to top glass.

They deal with the AF system accuracy and predictability of behavior, the switchology & interface decisions given the camera's positioning as a 'tweaner' or uberSLR on 'roids' for outside studio use and claims of perfection in the optics (e.g. "...wasting money on software (correction)") when, as good as they are, they are not free of issues.

Quack


In the S2 defense on AF and something to bear in mind on most of these reviews which a lot of them are not shooting MF on a regular basis. So on one hand it may smoke something to them than on the other a royal piece of crap. Be careful how you interpret what is being said. This goes with any review on any brand but many times 35mm shooters get a MF in there hand and expect miracles not realizing the DOF restrictions and how software plays more a role in MF. BTW I have not read the review but from the comments I read some things are apparent.
 
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I agree Peter. It is more awkward than my Canon as well because on the S2 you have to click a button to enter exposure compensation mode and then another button to make the change and accept it. However, I like the simple interface and I am not sure I would want another wheel (maybe, if done just right).

Leica did a good job in addressing beta tester's and early user's feedback in their first firmware update. For example, exposure compensation was not visible in the viewfinder when the S2 was initially released. Now it is. I expect future firmware releases will further enhance the camera's usability and performance. Users just need to keep giving feedback to Leica. I have been remiss in doing this lately. Probably because the last firmware addressed most of my issues and I have adapted to using the camera.

Mark
 

Mike M

New member
Mike,
I am not a 100% AF fan and do use my Hy6 manually and also Leica M.

I find your thread interesting but I dont understand why you can not choose your focal plane by choosing an AF point in the viewfinder.
You're totally correct that it's possible to choose focal planes in the viewfinder with AF. I apologize for not being more clear. What I'm referring to is a mindset and a culture that is often often associated with DSLRs in which the user doesn't "think" and "relate" to the subject and scene in terms of focal planes but rather relates to the scene in terms of focus points. These 2 different mindsets lead to completely different results when shooting because a person that is aware of focal planes looks at a scene and chooses focus differently than a person that thinks in terms of focus points. Many people around here probably take for granted that they are knowledgable enough in photography to understand and think in terms of focal planes. But I've found that the vast majority of DSLR shooters aren't even aware of them, have never heard of sheimpflug, and this often leads them to unreleastic expectations of what a camera's AF system can accomplish. Those types of people can only think in focus points because they aren't aware of planes, so they often wonder why a certain point isn't in focus rather then wondering why the plane isn't in focus.



One other thing I think we should not forget: Medium format with fast lenses has very shallow DOF, and the sensors with high resolution and no AA filter do show the slightest out of focus.

That's an excellent point. I think that it means that we have to be really careful when reading criticism of the S2 because the camera system itself is more prone to showing operator error than other systems.

I could use Alpa as an example: When a person gets an Alpa then there is the expectation that the camera system / software is not going to cover up any mistakes on the part of the operator. So most people that use an Alpa or critique an Alpa already have a solid understanding of technique in the first place and can often discern the differences between faults with the camera system and faults on the part of the operator. Unfortunately, there is an entirely different culture associated with DSLR cameras than with tech cameras. The danger of the S2 is that it's a DSLR so a lot of people immediately associate it with a DSLR culture and judge it according to those pre-ordained standards. But the S2 really requires a similar approach as an Alpa or tech camera in the sense that to really understand and get the most out of such an unforgiving system the operator has to have a real grip on technique in the first place. A lot of people that aren't really qualified to have a learned opinion about a system like the S2 are going to be tempted to believe they do simply because it's a DSLR. It's hard to explain and I hope that I'm making sense, but I'm talking about culture and perception...the way a person percieves something rather than the way it actually is... The biggest issues I see surrounding the S2 have little to do with the camera itself but rather the cultural expectations and perceptions on the part of the users.
 

Mike M

New member
Oh goody ... something related to discuss other than nit-picking the S2 to death. That poor camera is being nibbled to death by ducks :ROTFL:

Mike, I agree that the word Professional isn't a grab-bag term that translates to superior craftsmanship ... this forum is packed with people that are superior photographic technicians who do not make their living with a camera.

Since I've use a Leica M for most of my photographic journey, manual focus is part of my work before and after becoming a "professional photographer" ... so the concepts of focal plane placement and hyperfocal plane focusing are an integrated part of the creative process. In fact, without hyperfocal, many decisive moment shots with a M would be less possible ... especially when shooting a fast paced wedding.

However, I don't necessarily agree that there is confusion when addressing AF systems as it relates to evaluating a camera ... at least on this forum. IMO, this is not to be confused with a general grousing about lack of proper focal plane placement that may, or may not, be evident in a lot of professional photography these days.

If an AF system is accurate, then it is up to the photographer to employ it properly, keeping in mind that to control the plane of focus requires placing the AF point correctly in relation to the f stop being used. In that regard, I see no difference between Manual and Auto Focus if you know what you are doing ... except perhaps speed and the state of the user's eye-sight. Whether enough shooters, professional or not, know what they are doing is an entirely different subject IMO.

Frankly, I am a "Photoasaur" because I lament the loss of an aperture ring with DOF scale on most modern lens barrels ... including the S2 optics. To even teach Hyperfocal distance to my assistants I have to use my M lenses. Plus, with many, if not all, modern 35mm lenses, manual focus is an afterthought at best ... my assistant's Canon 85/1.2-II is a perfect example since disengaging AF produces the sloppiest MF know to man. Personally, I think this type of design has contributed to the loss of understanding of, and confidence in, manual focus ... since even a practiced manual shooter would have difficulty using many popular current AF lenses.

Medium Format is somewhat different IMO. If I select a MF system that employs AF then three aspects of evaluation come into play ... accuracy, speed, and the ability to manually focus them. However, for much of my location and event work the former two are the priority. I think that this is a growing trend for some professionals as 1) the need to consolidate gear from a financial perspective while ramping up IQ, and 2) the MFD systems have made real progress with AF capability.

Manual focus tends to be employed when there is more time to use it properly. I've yet to use a MF system that couldn't be manually focused well. Most of the lenses are dampened well enough to employ manual focus ... and swapping out the focusing screen with one to aid in the manual focus task helps. The S2 lenses may excel at manual focus ... but they are AF lenses ... and that will be, and should be, a major criteria of evaluation.

I will continue to hold the opinion that Hasselblad has cracked the AF problems inherent with a single center focus point as it relates to freedom of composition when shooting on the fly ... while using any lens wide open or near wide open. Moving to a H4D has been a liberating experience. Placing the AF point anywhere I want, and controlling the plane of focus at will faster than possible with any AF system now employed by any camera, 35mm or MF, has all but eliminated missed decisive moment shots due to poor focus.

If the S2 had used an aperture ring, and had the AF solution like that of the H4D, it is the camera I would be shooting location and event work with right now ... no question. More studied studio work is an entirely different matter ... where versatility rules.

-Marc
Right on :thumbup:

I'm totally with ya on all of that :)
 

Mike M

New member
Complex tools take time to learn.
Dave, I heartily agree with your statement.

BTW - thanks for the personal story. In my opinion, you just summed up perfectly what I consider to be the truly professional approach towards photography. I like how you're pushing yourself and your system to the limits to get the best results and are looking at it like a symbiotic relationship.
 

dfarkas

Workshop Member
S2 users, how easy is it to set manual WB?
Very easy.

Go to WB (either in Image Menu, third option or set as a custom function), roll the scroll wheel up one (this puts you at the last option) and click in the wheel to activate Manual WB. The camera then prompts you to take a picture of a white/gray card. I defocus and pop the gray card part of a ColorChecker Passport in front of the lens. Take a shot and it shows on the LCD and tells you that a WB has been set. Every shot after has the manual WB applied.

David
 

fotografz

Well-known member
Very easy.

Go to WB (either in Image Menu, third option or set as a custom function), roll the scroll wheel up one (this puts you at the last option) and click in the wheel to activate Manual WB. The camera then prompts you to take a picture of a white/gray card. I defocus and pop the gray card part of a ColorChecker Passport in front of the lens. Take a shot and it shows on the LCD and tells you that a WB has been set. Every shot after has the manual WB applied.

David
David, does the S2 have anything like a "user button" that you can assign a frequently used function to?

For example, on my Sony A900 I assigned the CF button to flash comp, since that is a frequently used function for shooting weddings ... but manual WB is more complicated because it involves menus. In the case of the H4D, I assigned the stop down button to immediately take a WB shot with no steps required other than pointing the lens at my "Digital Grey Kard" ... which I do frequently because WB is critical with MFD especially available light at ISOs beyond 200.

My M9 is pretty quick to get manual WB, but still is a snail compared to the big camera.

If not possible now, do you think a short cut can be done with firmware?

-Marc
 

dfarkas

Workshop Member
David, does the S2 have anything like a "user button" that you can assign a frequently used function to?

For example, on my Sony A900 I assigned the CF button to flash comp, since that is a frequently used function for shooting weddings ... but manual WB is more complicated because it involves menus. In the case of the H4D, I assigned the stop down button to immediately take a WB shot with no steps required other than pointing the lens at my "Digital Grey Kard" ... which I do frequently because WB is critical with MFD especially available light at ISOs beyond 200.

My M9 is pretty quick to get manual WB, but still is a snail compared to the big camera.

If not possible now, do you think a short cut can be done with firmware?

-Marc
Marc,

You can assign any of the four custom buttons to WB control, but not directly to Manual WB. As I outlined, once in the WB menu, it takes just one roll and one click of the wheel (then a shutter press) to set a manual WB.

Perhaps in future firmware, direct access to specific functions can be assigned to custom function buttons. In the last firmware update, several new options were added as well as allowing the DOF preview button to a custom function, so I can't see why not. An advantage of integrated design with user-upgradeable firmware is that these changes are quite easy to implement and roll out to users. We have an ongoing list of features that my customers and I would like to see in the future (like an on-screen DOF scale and/or a hyperfocal function for example).

David
 

fotografz

Well-known member
Marc,

You can assign any of the four custom buttons to WB control, but not directly to Manual WB. As I outlined, once in the WB menu, it takes just one roll and one click of the wheel (then a shutter press) to set a manual WB.

Perhaps in future firmware, direct access to specific functions can be assigned to custom function buttons. In the last firmware update, several new options were added as well as allowing the DOF preview button to a custom function, so I can't see why not. An advantage of integrated design with user-upgradeable firmware is that these changes are quite easy to implement and roll out to users. We have an ongoing list of features that my customers and I would like to see in the future (like an on-screen DOF scale and/or a hyperfocal function for example).

David
Those would be great additions David. I'd kill for an optional hyperfocal overlay on the LCD.

Another one I'd like to see is a thin histogram graph like the Leica DMR featured. It was a great tool for quick work.

But a one button manual WB would be the most usable of them all. Once added to the H camera via firmware, I couldn't bear to be without it. Heck, sometimes I don't even have time to whip out the grey card, and I just do a quick OOF shot of the Bride's dress (if it's white : -). It has cut processing time way down.

I think it is these sorts of things that add real value to a system ... not just a never ending megapixel race.

Thanks,

-Marc
 

paulmoore

New member
I too like the quick look at a histogram..

With the very large price tag and the large red dot that resembles a target, Leica is going to get a lot of nit-picking, a lot of adoring fan worship and some legitimate criticism to help make it a better tool. There are so many styles of shooting and end uses of the photographic image these days with cameras at the top of the heap needing to be specialized not generalized..I have asserted from the beginning that the s2 is great for the few..and was it's intention. After reading all the above I still think it would be a great camera to make images with. I could only wish that this paragraph would be followed with "sponsored by LEICA". I can't not pull the trigger on it due to economics not aesthetics. If I had a couple more jobs a month it would be a no brainer.
 

fotografz

Well-known member
"I can't not pull the trigger on it due to economics not aesthetics. If I had a couple more jobs a month it would be a no brainer."

EXACTLY!

Two years ago, this would already be in my gear vault along with the Hasselblad Multi-Shot studio kit with T/S adapter ... and the 35mm DSLR would be down to a camera and two zooms, if even that.

-Marc
 

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
I almost did but too many missing links at the time and actually still feel that way. I have some fundamental issues with it that bug me. Besides certainly a bad climate to spend this kind of cash with no upgrade type paths like Hassy and Phase have installed. I live for those upgrades and there are some screamers going on.
 

paulmoore

New member
personally the upgrade path is not that worrisome to me.. there will more lenses and another body coming down the pike..and in a time frame that fits my "one system every 5 years preference". I have been using 4/3 camera for a portion of what I do, amazing what that little thing can produce, I no longer seek a 50+ image for the remainder.
 
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