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HD4-40 or S2

Scott Tansey

New member
I am ready to jump into the inferno and purchase a medium format camera system. I have looked at 3 major systems: Mamiya-Phase, Hasselblad and the Leica S2. I have narrowed it down to the S2 and the H4-40. In favor of the Leica is the form factor and the potential for the lenses. In favor of the H4-40 is that Hasselblad is in its fourth generation. I am curious how the lenses are. In both cases I have dealt with smaller format lenses of both companies: Leica M lenses and xPan lenses. I am going to use the camera for panoramic images and some portrait images.

Any comments for pros and cons of each system. Thanks for your help in advance, and I have really enjoyed and learned from this forum

Scott
 

xpixel

New member
I think nobody can really give you the right advice which one is the best for you. Finally only you can make the desicion. Apart from the technical data, there is a personal feeling if you like to make pictures with one or the other MF cam.
 

KETCH ROSSI

New member
What I can say is that initially I also went for the Leica S2 especially so for the way the body fils, more like what I am accustom to for many years with 35mm bodies, and also for the Lecia lenses, but at the end I ruled out the S2 and now choosing from the Phase-Mamyia, Leaf Mamyia and H4D system, but for me was a matter of resolution as I'm looking at the 60MP range.

The way the S2 vs any other format fills in your hands is day and night, so this is also very important factor to take consideration of.
 

Paul Spinnler

Well-known member
Hasselblad together with the Phocus software is phenomenal. Tethering works seamlessly and is very quick. The digital apo correction of Phocus corrects geometry, aberrations and vignetting to produce a result that equals or supercedes Leicas optics. Hasselblad is cheaper and produces fantastic high iso results with the h4d-40. The Leica has a very bad iso reputation, noise gets bad really fast above 160 base iso. Leica is a new system that might or might not survice. The MF market is a tough place with a lot of concentration dynamics in the last years. In the worst case the S2 might be discontinued if not many people jump onto the system and then you have spent a lot of money on a system with no development. Hasselblad uses a modular system which enables you to use a technical camera which in turn lets you use great wide angles lenses that are really superior and that let you stitch to produce huge panos rivalling finest large format prints. There's a healthy second-hand market for Hasselblad glass on ebay etc. whereas a Leica Lens alone costs a fortune. Professionals using the Leica complain about the long file transmission times and lack of workflow solution. If you want to upgrade it is not clear whether you can trade-in your syste - which I doubt, since it is the whole camera - whereas hasselblad and phase have extensive promotions and trade-up programs all the time to keep their customers in the system. So investment security is in the stars.

The Leica on the other hand has great optics with a heavy price and compact weather sealed body. The bokeh is nice. And it has a red dot.

If money isn't a constraint, and you don't care about a good tethering workflow or a technical camera, can live with the many uncertainties of the market or the future of the S line, and are more a casual enthusiast, the leica maybe a great choice.

If you want a proven system for a lot cheaper entry point with a good software that makes the results shine, than you should get the Hassy.

I have to say that I ordered a H4D-60 and own a M9. In my view the S2 was too expensive for what one gets and I wasn't sure about the future of the system. If I had enough money, I'd get both systems, as it can be nice to have such a form factor.

Regards

Paul
 

thomas

New member
The digital apo correction of Phocus corrects geometry, aberrations and vignetting to produce a result that equals or supercedes Leicas optics.
are there any side by side comparisions?

Hasselblad uses a modular system which enables you to use a technical camera which in turn lets you use great wide angles lenses that are really superior and that let you stitch to produce huge panos rivalling finest large format prints.
basically, yes. But this does not apply to the H4D40 as the sensor has micro lenses... so this back is not really appropriate for use on a tech camera... especially not with wide angles.
 

Paul Spinnler

Well-known member
are there any side by side comparisions?

basically, yes. But this does not apply to the H4D40 as the sensor has micro lenses... so this back is not really appropriate for use on a tech camera... especially not with wide angles.
Yes, here:

http://www.photoscala.de/Artikel/Hasselblad-H4D-Versuch-einer-Standortbestimmung

It's in German but you may be able to translate it with bablefish or something.

It concludes to say that the Hassy wins in combination with its Phocus software over the S2.

With regard to the technical camera: Yes you're right, you won't be able to get a one-shot FOV like you can get with a 60mp back. And it's not as good in terms of color cast than a microlenses-free sensor.

But Captureintegrations clearly showed that the Dalsa Sensor of the P40+ - which I gather is almost the same in the H4D-40 - is still quite useable with a technical camera, albeit the presence of the microlenses:

http://www.captureintegration.com/tests/phase-one/

You just have to create your whiteshot and then use Phocus to remove the color casts. In addition to that, if you stitch the sensor size in itself isn't that of a problem anymore ...

But that's not the point. Leica has good lenses, I love the Summilux 50 1.4 for example, it is a wonderful lens and possibly the best 35mm lens out there. But in the medium format world, I'm not so sure if it matters that much when you pit this against advanced software corrections ... you pay a lot for the brand ...

Regards
Paul
 

Paul Spinnler

Well-known member
You can see direct comparisons between the S2 lens and the Phocus corrected lens at about 1/3rd in to the article. You can clearly see that the Hassy has a slight edge even. A bit more below you can see the aberrations corrections etc.
 

David K

Workshop Member
From my own hands on testing experience your two finalists are very different systems. They may both be MF but there's more about them that's different than similar. If you shoot and handle both I think you'll find a clear preference for one over the other. Not sure that would be the case if you had narrowed it down to, say, the P40+ and the H4D40.
 

KETCH ROSSI

New member
I wanted to love the Leica S2, but I just simply didn't, cause I prefer to have a Canon 1D IV and a 60MP MF body,and for this I dumped the Leica S2, it just seats in the middle, and now just need to make up my mind with Hassy H4D or Phase ONe DF body w/ P1 + or Leaf DB.

But I'm sure will still provide for a great system for many, just not for me.

Mind you I really Love the Leica Glass, and we have a pre-order of the new Leica Cine Lenses set, to use with Red Epic-X cameras, but the Leica S2 just didn't do it for me, yet I really love the S2 series Glass, simply stunning and pricy too ;)
 

ptomsu

Workshop Member
Well, we had similar discussions and comparisons already very often.

What I can say as a H user, that the H lenses are not at all second to Leica. You have to consider the IQ as a combination of SW and glass and in the case of H with Phocus (as also in the case of Phase lenses with C1 Pro) both brands rock!

In the case of the S system the lenses rock for sure (I just belief this as I am a Leica M shooter but do not know the S lenses myself too deep) but the SW - LR3 - obviously does not rock and could be significantly improved for the S2 and their lenses.

So end of the day you pay a premium today for the S system without getting the premium. If this is worth the money to spend for a better form factor in body etc is an individual decision. I would say that in 1 or 2 years from now, if Leica continues to do their homework and bring the complete S system lens lineup together with an S2 and with really Leica optimized SW, then the S System might be the choice. Not today!
 

tjv

Active member
The only way to know what you'd be most comfortable shooting is to actually hire / test both products. As soon as I picked up the S2, I liked it. I'd feel much more comfortable shooting it all day for the type of work I do compared to an H body. Sure it's expensive, but form factor is very important. How important, and what it's worth, is up to the individual.
 

Quentin_Bargate

Well-known member
Hasselblad is the clear winner if vesatility matters. The S2 is a niche product. Th H4D series is a fourth generation camera system designed to be a flexible professional tool with exceptional image quality. In my view it really is that simple.

Quentin
 

thomas

New member
Yes, here:

http://www.photoscala.de/Artikel/Hasselblad-H4D-Versuch-einer-Standortbestimmung

It's in German but you may be able to translate it with bablefish or something.

It concludes to say that the Hassy wins in combination with its Phocus software over the S2.
true ... I remember that test (no translation required... I am German :) ). I am finding it a bit misleading as the S2 shots were taken some weeks before the H shots and obviously the light is a bit different.
However I don't want to state the results wouldn't be the same in a direct side by side comparision... who knows.
 

tjv

Active member
Hasselblad is the clear winner if vesatility matters. The S2 is a niche product. Th H4D series is a fourth generation camera system designed to be a flexible professional tool with exceptional image quality. In my view it really is that simple.

Quentin
Depends on what tasks you want to put the camera to, does it not? I'm not arguing the H4D isn't better suited to studio and tech cam work (obviously,) or that it isn't a mature and exceptional camera system, but if you want to shoot hand held, or in the field in varied weather conditions, the S2 has some advantages. I'm not a Leica apologist by any means, just think the OP should spend time with each system, working as he normally would, to get an idea of how each feels and performs in areas important to him.

What I can say for certain is the H4D-40 seems like great value on paper compared to the S2. And the system is complete, now.
 

Quentin_Bargate

Well-known member
Depends on what tasks you want to put the camera to, does it not? I'm not arguing the H4D isn't better suited to studio and tech cam work (obviously,) or that it isn't a mature and exceptional camera system, but if you want to shoot hand held, or in the field in varied weather conditions, the S2 has some advantages. I'm not a Leica apologist by any means, just think the OP should spend time with each system, working as he normally would, to get an idea of how each feels and performs in areas important to him.

What I can say for certain is the H4D-40 seems like great value on paper compared to the S2. And the system is complete, now.
Exactly, which is why I said its a niche product. It's niche is as a weather sealed medium format camera that handles like a 35mm camera so it is at an advantge used hand held or in bad weather conditions. The H4D is not a niche product, but a general purpose product that is good at everything, but is not specialised in just one or two areas.
 

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
Folks I can shoot a Phase DF handheld all day long so those comments about the s2 are really overstated on handheld. Depends on what style you like and are more comfortable
 
It really boils down to ones own needs, shooting style, and personal preference. I tried the Phase One, Hassy, and Leica offerings at the time and ended up deciding the S2 was right for ME. Others that have done the same thing come to different conclusions. However, those conclusions are also often driven by price. With the great trade-up offers both Phase and Hassy have had in recent months it is very difficult to get the math to work out so one can afford to change brands and go for the Leica S2. If you are new to digital MF (not eligble for trade-up offers) then the math is different. When I bought the S2 it was about a $2,400 more than similar competitive products (price difference may be different now). I was willing to pay the premium to get the S2 ergonomics. For some, like Guy, it isn't worth it, but for me it was.

I am very happy with my choice. I expect others that choose something different than the S2 will be just as happy - provided they do their homework and know what they are getting suits them.

This is no magic camera that is and does everything. There are compromises in each of the available digital MF systems. The only correct choice is picking the camera that best suits you.
 

Scott Tansey

New member
I want to thank all of you who have responded to my inquiry. Thank you for taking the time. You have given me some issues that I need to resolve in my head. The most important is how am I going to use the camera. When I finish that soul searching question, I can make my decision.

Scott
 

Professional

Active member
I want to thank all of you who have responded to my inquiry. Thank you for taking the time. You have given me some issues that I need to resolve in my head. The most important is how am I going to use the camera. When I finish that soul searching question, I can make my decision.

Scott
I was in same your situation about 2 years ago, then about 1 year ago i saw all those 3 options [Hasselblad, Phase One, Leica S2], for no reason i dumped that S2 and just kept Hassy and P1, in fact i liked that p1 and Hassy have more mp een it is not a big story these days sometimes, but my head and eyes were on either Hasselblad or Phase One long time before they lunched that S2, but our local dealer gave me an offer on H3DII-39 that i will never dream about it and i went with it in no time, i am so happy with it and that handholding issue was never a problem for me, because i got used to shoot with Canon 1-series with 70-200/300f2.8IS which are heavy so far, and i tested that Hasselblad in the store and i saw it not that heavy and not a problem for me, even when i tested S2 and Phase One DF in NY last year during that Photo Plus, i never had a problem of handholding any camera, so weight for me is not a big deal and i don't make it a big issue to make my decision, i have Mamiya RZ and Hasselblad 501CM, that RZ is so heavy that i hate it, but i really love to use this camera no matter how the weight is, even i use it on my old Manfrotto 190XPROB, later i will buy plates from the film hassy and mamiya to use on my Gitzo tripods, now if i was given the three options now i will go definitely with either Hasselblad or Phase with respect for Leica, i may choose that Leica S2 over Hasselblad 500 series or Mamiya RZ, even i will choose it over the ZD or Mamiya 33 [DM33] or LEAF 28mp.
 
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