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*** PHOTOKINA 2010 and MF... what is coming... ***

narikin

New member
ok - well if you are going to stitch together multiple files, then you could just use a FF DSLR, why even bother with MF? get a good pano head, set the camera vertically and away you go. DX3, 1Ds2, or even just a 5D2. Photoshop will even automate it for you and life is good!

If, despite what you say, you really DO want another system, then sure, use MF to accomplish the exact same thing. With distant landscape panos, Tech cameras with LLS (Lens Locked Stitch) ability are not required, I'd agree.

As for the print: I have never seen a 2 part print that I couldn't easily spot the joint on, and believe me I've seen a lot. The best were Richard Misrachs, where the clever mounter had hidden the seam in a particular detail, like a fence or building line. Most others - like Gursky or Struths were glaringly obvious. Personally I'd stick with 60" wide paper till someone comes up with a pigment ink machine at 72/80" and paper to match.
 

thomas

New member
ok - well if you are going to stitch together multiple files, then you could just use a FF DSLR, why even bother with MF?
my reading was that the 120x80 prints will come from single shots...? just the larger ones from stitching...

As for the print: I have never seen a 2 part print that I couldn't easily spot the joint on, and believe me I've seen a lot. The best were Richard Misrachs, where the clever mounter had hidden the seam in a particular detail, like a fence or building line. Most others - like Gursky or Struths were glaringly obvious.
but it's only us photographer iditos that look that close at the print. because we are interessted to see how it was made. if you go 3 steps back you won't see the seam. another story are Gursky's two-folded formula 1 prints... in which even the Diasec was stitched. That was infact a bit disappointing as it distracts from the image... you simply can't "walk into" the scene... there is a certain inevitable distance.
 

darr

Well-known member
I'm more interested in knowing where you can get a exhibition quality 80x120" print made without a joint seam or two down the middle. All the XL inkjet machines capable of doing that size in one piece are solvent printers onto vinyl or canvas, (quality paper tops out at 64" wide) so very high resolution will be rendered somewhat pointless by their greatly reduced resolution. Makes it all somewhat moot, don't you think?
Not the OP, but you are so right!
 

dougpeterson

Workshop Member
ok - well if you are going to stitch together multiple files, then you could just use a FF DSLR, why even bother with MF? get a good pano head, set the camera vertically and away you go. DX3, 1Ds2, or even just a 5D2. Photoshop will even automate it for you and life is good!

If, despite what you say, you really DO want another system, then sure, use MF to accomplish the exact same thing. With distant landscape panos, Tech cameras with LLS (Lens Locked Stitch) ability are not required, I'd agree.
1) Quality is more than resolution
Meaningful resolution (actual resolved subject detail) is only one aspect of image quality. Measurable differences like DR, color fidelity (especially in shadows), file flexibility, micro contrast, and less measurable differences like lens draw, "look" "3Dness" "tactileness" etc are very different between a FF dSLR and a MF system.

2) Workflow
"Photoshop will even automate it for you" is a gross exaggeration. Any workflow involving stitching is a significantly tedious one compared to single-frame workflows especially as the frame count rises. If you don't mind sitting in front of a computer (I'm not making fun here - it varies from one person to the next - I spend a lot of time in front of computers and don't mind as much as a lot of more traditional shooters) then stitching is pretty strait forward and has gotten a LOT easier (and better) in the last several years with newer generations of software. But it is still nowhere near as easy as single frame shooting or "stitching"/blending on a tech camera.

3) Don't underestimate to resolution of high-end backs
Although dSLRs are coming up in resolution they are still pretty low compared to higher end digital backs and with the AA filter and often glass which is not as sharp per pixel as a good MF lens, dSLRs resolve less detail per pixel than digital backs. Also the overlap you need for stitching is 15-20% of the frame width and height. Finally any stitching by rotation requires you crop into the final composite frame (for long lens stitching it's a small crop, for wide angles it can be a very large crop). Accordingly a 22mp dSLR will need to shoot can take anywhere between 4 and 8 frames to match the final subject detail of a single frame from a P65+, and many many frames to match a simple 2-frame P65+ stitch. Even then you're looking at a higher-resolution version of the dSLR file quality.

4) Annoyances of stitching
In addition shooting several or many frames poses it's own problems of changing light, subject motion (e.g. blowing branches on a group of willow trees, herds of animals, clouds etc). These problems are not insurmountable, but can often be very annoying, especially for stitching more than 2 or 3 frames.

----

You can twist all these numbers a little either direction (I can only base my numbers off my own testing and use) but it's easy to underestimate the post-processing work of a workflow centered around multi-frame dSLR stitching if your goal is very high quality large prints. It's also a less tactile and direct way of interacting with your camera when shooting - this may not bother some people, but I want my actual experience shooting in the field to be fun and enjoyable, not just "productive"; single-frame and LLS-stitching feel to me (very subjective) more fun and multi-frame dSLR stitching feels like work to me.

Almost all of my shooting at the getDPI workshops I've attended have been on tech cameras with 2, 3, or 4 frame lens-locked stitching. There just isn't anything else like it. Amazing quality - tactile and enjoyable shooting experience (AFTER the first several hours getting familiar with the camera and shooting process - the first several hours are a real PITA).
http://www.captureintegration.com/2010/02/09/oregon-panoramics/
http://www.captureintegration.com/2009/06/24/getdpi-arizona-workshop-vertical-stitches/

Just my two (biased but as honest as I know how) cents.

We very often have the feedback from new MF shooters that "this beats the @^*# out of stitching".

Doug Peterson (e-mail Me)
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T.Karma

New member
My current feeling is that none of the Medium Format companies is strong enough to give us a real surprise with either cameras or digital backs.
It is all a slow, slow and expensive, expensive way up.
That is why I hope Sony or any other company that is good and powerful enough for a break up will do something crazy, like picking up the Contax cameras, supply it with an image stabilised digital back, let Zeiss design some great PC lenses.
All that what we have already in 135. Is it really that difficult and costly?
 

KeithL

Well-known member
This system is to shoot for Art Gallery material were prints will go as big as 120x80 and 240x120 for the panoramic, but this could be stitched.
Jesus wept, these aren't fine art prints, they're wallpaper. What is this obsession in the USA with BIG? Big country, big autos, big wimmen, big prints.

Never mind the quality, feel the width.
 

KETCH ROSSI

New member
ok - well if you are going to stitch together multiple files, then you could just use a FF DSLR, why even bother with MF? get a good pano head, set the camera vertically and away you go. DX3, 1Ds2, or even just a 5D2. Photoshop will even automate it for you and life is good!

If, despite what you say, you really DO want another system, then sure, use MF to accomplish the exact same thing. With distant landscape panos, Tech cameras with LLS (Lens Locked Stitch) ability are not required, I'd agree.

As for the print: I have never seen a 2 part print that I couldn't easily spot the joint on, and believe me I've seen a lot. The best were Richard Misrachs, where the clever mounter had hidden the seam in a particular detail, like a fence or building line. Most others - like Gursky or Struths were glaringly obvious. Personally I'd stick with 60" wide paper till someone comes up with a pigment ink machine at 72/80" and paper to match.
Well I think Doug nail it, but yes, after shooting for over twenty years with 35mm, I know now that my 1D IV will be sued only for certain needs, but rarely for Print work of any size above 13x19.

Detail coming form MF files, is just so far away form anything I ever got out of 35mm is not even worth comparing.

As far as stitching, I know is very tedious work, and the larger the files the less stitching I'll have to do.

Actually placing together multiple Prints, will result with a very thin, I'll say super thin line, which in turn can be hand painted, retouched to further eliminate its visibility, but one you are several feet away., as you have to be when looking at such large prints, That is if you want to see it all, you will not see the seems, unless you leave a NOse print on the glass :ROTFL:
 

KETCH ROSSI

New member
Jesus wept, these aren't fine art prints, they're wallpaper. What is this obsession in the USA with BIG? Big country, big autos, big wimmen, big prints.

Never mind the quality, feel the width.
Ha ha, actually this will be in Italy, the reason for this sizes is to present something never done before, as far as bringing to life some of the Breath taking sceneries of my Country with the outmost Detail and dramatic color representation.

Will it be a success, I don't know, but I'm counting on :cool:
 

T.Karma

New member
Jesus wept, these aren't fine art prints, they're wallpaper. What is this obsession in the USA with BIG? Big country, big autos, big wimmen, big prints.

Never mind the quality, feel the width.
It is because freedom in this country (the US) translates to greatness, which is lately often confused with great size.
Just my guess.
Shakespeare would have said it better, no doubt! :)
 

dougpeterson

Workshop Member
That is why I hope Sony or any other company that is good and powerful enough for a break up will do something crazy, like picking up the Contax cameras, supply it with an image stabilised digital back, let Zeiss design some great PC lenses.
All that what we have already in 135. Is it really that difficult and costly?
Yes.
 

KETCH ROSSI

New member
LOL, you guys crack me up, love it!

Agian size for me, here is a necessety, as no one has done what I'm about to embark in, with this type of representations, and the Gallery wil be my own, so no problem here, also this is the first of many Charity project, were 50% of all goes to it.

Just hope to be able to leave up to my own expectations in what I see and what I like to bring to life here, but the pressure is not indifferent, especially since most of the Photos will be done in forbidden locations, and I have very special permissions, so this is were some of the pressure also coms in choosing the perfect MF system for the job!
 

narikin

New member
well good luck.

we've all met photographers who talk a good talk - describing an amazing project they are about to do... unique idea... radical concept... and then you see the rather disappointing results.

imho its best to keep quiet, do the work, and let others discuss how great it is, or not.
 

KETCH ROSSI

New member
well good luck.

we've all met photographers who talk a good talk - describing an amazing project they are about to do... unique idea... radical concept... and then you see the rather disappointing results.

imho its best to keep quiet, do the work, and let others discuss how great it is, or not.
If you take time and read you see that I'm not by any means trying to show off, but simply stating what I need the gear for, and how it is important that I choose the best available, and what is right for the Job at hand.

Further more I wrote my self in more then one post that I my self have to see how this comes out, never done before not by me nor any one else, so it is all to be seen how it will come, out, however if done professionally and with care, while using the best gear, I don't see why good results shouldn't come out form.

This is not an advertisement as I'm not selling anything here, so really don't get your attitude.
 

Mike M

New member
This is not an advertisement as I'm not selling anything here, so really don't get your attitude.
It comes from pride....and pride leads to cynicism

Cynicism is the reason I quit working in advertising :banghead:

Hey, I finally found a reason to use the little brick gif...
 

narikin

New member
Ketch, no offence was meant, and sorry some was taken, I appreciate that English may not be your first language, but when you make quotes like these below, it all sounds extremely 'ambitious' and 'promising', but I want to see delivery, not promises.

never done before not by me nor any one else,
Some of the Panoramic shots as well as some of the CityScapes shots and the Cathedrals will be Stunningly Huge and full of detail.
.. the reason for this sizes is to present something never done before, as far as bringing to life some of the Breath taking sceneries of my Country with the outmost Detail and dramatic color representation.
so my point is this sounds great on paper, but, I just meant to have a healthy dose of reality into the debate - and stress: "walk the walk, don't talk the talk.

and lastly:

It comes from pride....and pride leads to cynicism
its not pride or cynicism - it's a dose of reality and long experience in the medium, especially the art/creative side. I have lost count of the number of great 'never been done before' projects I have heard about, only to find the reality a let-down.

At the risk of repeating myself: keep your head down, your mouth closed, and let the work speak for you. That is what really matters.

The very best of luck to you Ketch in realizing your proposals.
 

KETCH ROSSI

New member
Understood your comment Narikin,

I'm know to speck my mind in anything I do and or about to do, that is how I am, and I always set my self to the highest standards, and even if I was to achieve half of what I always set out to do, will always make me happy, as it is still by any standards great result.

Thanks , I know I will, just will have to wait and se how all comes together and the results achieved ;~)
 

fotografz

Well-known member
Wish I had something to be cynical about ... after I also retired from advertising it left a cynical void.

Maybe I need to goose up my pride some so it'll lead to a good dose of cynicism. :ROTFL:

-Marc
 

David K

Workshop Member
Hey Marc, no need to goose your pride to get cynical. Just look at the great job our politicians in Washington are doing for the economy.
 
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