S
Shelby Lewis
Guest
It'll still work though... you just have to "check level"as opposed to it being attached all the time.
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Could you perhaps define "very accurate" in this context?
My Starrett 199Z levels are accurate to ten arc seconds (1/360th of a degree = 0.0005" per foot) per division.
The level head looks nice, but insanely expensive. It's just a dual sine plate, a design that's been around for well over 100 years.
Has anyone come up with an actual number defining the required accuracy? I didn't see that value listed in the specs for any of the referenced products.
Thanks.
- Leigh
Re: Leveling Bases and tripod
If you're shooting panos, leveling the camera is not sufficient. You must also level the tripod such that the axis of rotation of the camera is absolutely vertical.
I've never used the Arca Cube, but looking at the design its operation would appear to be a two-step process. I expect the same to be true for similar products.
First you must set both axes to zero degrees. Then you level the tripod using the levels on the cube.
After that you can set whatever angles you wish, or rotate the camera.
- Leigh
If you're shooting panos, leveling the camera is not sufficient. You must also level the tripod such that the axis of rotation of the camera is absolutely vertical.
I've never used the Arca Cube, but looking at the design its operation would appear to be a two-step process. I expect the same to be true for similar products.
First you must set both axes to zero degrees. Then you level the tripod using the levels on the cube.
After that you can set whatever angles you wish, or rotate the camera.
- Leigh
originally I was referring to geared leveling vs. non geared leveling. Geard leveling allows very small adjustments of movements... consequently allows accurate leveling (basically).
I'd consider a "very accurate" result when I don't have to straighten the image in post (or otherwise have to correct perspective) ... assumed that I did not screw up the shot.
Re: Leveling Bases and tripod
On the Cube, the top platform pans independently (as does the base.) So, regardless of how level your tripod is, you first lock the base pan, dial pitch to level, then dial roll to level, and the top platform is now level; you can now pan your stitches on that plane with confidence. This, combined with the micro-adjustability of the geared axis are IMO the big advantages to the Cube.
Moreover, IF you want to do a multi-row spherical stitch, the Cube's pitch and roll axis are located well above the top plate, almost at lens axis. Hence it is close enough to "nodal" that current software can accommodate for say a three-row spherical capture.
Nope!
On the Cube, the top platform pans independently (as does the base.) So, regardless of how level your tripod is, you first lock the base pan, dial pitch to level, then dial roll to level, and the top platform is now level; you can now pan your stitches on that plane with confidence. This, combined with the micro-adjustability of the geared axis are IMO the big advantages to the Cube.
Moreover, IF you want to do a multi-row spherical stitch, the Cube's pitch and roll axis are located well above the top plate, almost at lens axis. Hence it is close enough to "nodal" that current software can accommodate for say a three-row spherical capture.
Don Libby
Well-known member
I feel there's two parts to a capturing good panos starting with proper level and ending with the lens nodal point.
I never bothered with leveling the tripod but made dead certain the camera was as level as I could get it before worrying about the nodal point. One of the easiest ways I found in checking the camera level was a simple level cube on top and moving the camera left to right making certain the bubble remained centered; if it moved at all it meant the camera wasn't leveled. The nodal point was always a PIA and I never could get it perfect no matter how I tried. This was when I was shooing my landscapes with 35mm and then with the Mamiya AFD/P30+ using a combination of ballheads, leveling bases, and RRS "Ultimate-Pro Omni-Pivot Package" which I found to get very good. All that changed when I got the Cube.
The Cube allows one to achieve a level camera while providing a stable panning head with the ability to take precise multiple row, multiple column images much the same way the RRS UPOPP does. I know as that was one of the first things I tried shortly after getting the Cube. So you have a choice, use a good ballhead, leveling device and RRS gear or use one head that offers all the above.
Just a side note here (speaking from experience) - but no matter how you do it; how much you attempt to setup the perfect combination of level and nodal point for a multi-row spherical stitch, you'll never achieve the same final output as that found in flat stitching found in a technical camera. It'll be close yet the act of the camera and lens moving versus just the camera will always give a certain amount of distortion to the image.
As always just my 2¢
Don
I never bothered with leveling the tripod but made dead certain the camera was as level as I could get it before worrying about the nodal point. One of the easiest ways I found in checking the camera level was a simple level cube on top and moving the camera left to right making certain the bubble remained centered; if it moved at all it meant the camera wasn't leveled. The nodal point was always a PIA and I never could get it perfect no matter how I tried. This was when I was shooing my landscapes with 35mm and then with the Mamiya AFD/P30+ using a combination of ballheads, leveling bases, and RRS "Ultimate-Pro Omni-Pivot Package" which I found to get very good. All that changed when I got the Cube.
The Cube allows one to achieve a level camera while providing a stable panning head with the ability to take precise multiple row, multiple column images much the same way the RRS UPOPP does. I know as that was one of the first things I tried shortly after getting the Cube. So you have a choice, use a good ballhead, leveling device and RRS gear or use one head that offers all the above.
Just a side note here (speaking from experience) - but no matter how you do it; how much you attempt to setup the perfect combination of level and nodal point for a multi-row spherical stitch, you'll never achieve the same final output as that found in flat stitching found in a technical camera. It'll be close yet the act of the camera and lens moving versus just the camera will always give a certain amount of distortion to the image.
As always just my 2¢
Don
Re: Leveling Bases and tripod
OK. I thought that might be the case.
That's why I said "the axis of rotation of the camera must be absolutely vertical".
The statement is correct even if you introduce additional axes of rotation in the system.
I had not considered rotation about a horizontal axis, but I can see where that might be useful.
If you really want to be precise, all rotational axes must pass through the rear nodal point of the lens.
Thanks for the clarification.
- Leigh
Hi Jack,
OK. I thought that might be the case.
That's why I said "the axis of rotation of the camera must be absolutely vertical".
The statement is correct even if you introduce additional axes of rotation in the system.
I had not considered rotation about a horizontal axis, but I can see where that might be useful.
If you really want to be precise, all rotational axes must pass through the rear nodal point of the lens.
Thanks for the clarification.
- Leigh
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B
Ben Norton
Guest
I went for the Fanotec EZ Leveller II in the end. Decided that i really didn't need all the bells and whistles of a clam/cube right now. For the price, i have to say it's a very nice little piece of kit. It's lightened up my tripod by over a kilo!
If anyone is interested, the cheapest i could find in the UK was at 360 Tactical VR in East Kilbride. Awesome dudes. Shipped my head direct from Italy to me as they were out of stock and saved me a few days of waiting which was very good of them.
If anyone is interested, the cheapest i could find in the UK was at 360 Tactical VR in East Kilbride. Awesome dudes. Shipped my head direct from Italy to me as they were out of stock and saved me a few days of waiting which was very good of them.
schuster
Active member
"Virtual Horizon" calibration on IQ back?
The "Virtual Horizon" on my IQ160 is a very cool tool, especially in "numeric Roll and Pitch Values" mode where you can almost breathe on it to affect the numbers. Just one problem... it's way off! The bubble levels on my Cube and camera are synced, and correlate with a separate laser level, but the "Virtual Horizon" isn't even close. Is there a way to calibrate it?
The "Virtual Horizon" on my IQ160 is a very cool tool, especially in "numeric Roll and Pitch Values" mode where you can almost breathe on it to affect the numbers. Just one problem... it's way off! The bubble levels on my Cube and camera are synced, and correlate with a separate laser level, but the "Virtual Horizon" isn't even close. Is there a way to calibrate it?
GrahamWelland
Subscriber & Workshop Member
There's no documented way of calibrating the IQ level. Maybe Phase One or their dealers perhaps have a hidden option to set this kind of stuff. I'd also like to be able to do this too because all of the levels on my gear all seem to be different - that's on the tripod, the Cube, my Alpa STC and the IQ160.
I've come around to the conclusion that it's ok to be 'close enough' and always also leave a little bit of breathing room in images anyway because being 100% technically level isn't always aesthetically the most pleasing presentation due to the way your mind interpretes an image. (For example a level image with a large mass on one side or the other may appear to be leaning one way or the other even though it truly is "level"). It also helps if you ever do any keystoning corrections too.
I've come around to the conclusion that it's ok to be 'close enough' and always also leave a little bit of breathing room in images anyway because being 100% technically level isn't always aesthetically the most pleasing presentation due to the way your mind interpretes an image. (For example a level image with a large mass on one side or the other may appear to be leaning one way or the other even though it truly is "level"). It also helps if you ever do any keystoning corrections too.
danlindberg
Well-known member
I have been told that Phase might consider it for a future firmware update.
The first back I had was way off; I got a replacement back - way off as well. It was sent back to Denmark and now it's pretty good but still not perfect. It seems to me that it's not obvious to the Phase engineers that, in certain situations, being off by half a degree does make a notable difference. So I think it's a good idea if more than one user asks for software calibration of the levels.
Chris
Ben Rubinstein
Active member
You don't need a level setup for pano's. You just need enough overlap to compensate for the curve caused by the lack of level, it's a lot faster to do than going crazy about getting perfectly level, you need the overlap anyway for the stitching. The bubble level of my Nodal Ninja 5 showed this setup to be level, it's very innaccurate and by the time I was pointed 30 degrees up the camera was anything but perfectly level during the rotation even by just eyeballing it. Shoot another frame on either side and a half row above, which I needed anyway to allow for perspective adjustments and to provide enough overlap for the stitch therefore who cares about having the camera expensively and incredibly accurately level for pano work?
lance_schad
Workshop Member
GrahamWelland
Subscriber & Workshop Member
I find that the level indicator with the IQ, especially the digital display, is very easy to use and accurate when attached to something like a Cube head (or any other geared head I suppose). Unfortunately it isn't as convenient as a bubble level on the camera hot shoe, body or tripod head. These can be seen regardless of whether the camera & back are powered up.
Now what would REALLY help, me at least, would be a short cut button to get to the level display! Having to go into playback mode or navigating the menus gets tedious quickly. Phase One missed a very useful workflow feature by not adding a customizable button for user defined short cuts. This is a great feature on the Aptus that I use all the time.
Now what would REALLY help, me at least, would be a short cut button to get to the level display! Having to go into playback mode or navigating the menus gets tedious quickly. Phase One missed a very useful workflow feature by not adding a customizable button for user defined short cuts. This is a great feature on the Aptus that I use all the time.
Bill Caulfeild-Browne
Well-known member
Graham, I'm missing something here!
I access the level display by simply tapping on the thumbnail. Perhaps this is easy for me because I generally shoot with the tools (histo, overexposure, sharpness and level) showing on the right side of the screen.
My level seems to be absolutely accurate and while I don't do a lot of handheld shooting, the fact that C1 will correct automatically is very useful.
Bill
I access the level display by simply tapping on the thumbnail. Perhaps this is easy for me because I generally shoot with the tools (histo, overexposure, sharpness and level) showing on the right side of the screen.
My level seems to be absolutely accurate and while I don't do a lot of handheld shooting, the fact that C1 will correct automatically is very useful.
Bill
GrahamWelland
Subscriber & Workshop Member
Bill,
I agree that it's easy enough to navigate there with a few taps on screen depending upon which mode you are in - and that's the thing, depending on where you are. It might be a single press of the 'play' button into the split preview/scrolling level/hilight/focus/info/level or it might involve more navigation from a full screen mode including display or 'live view' when I'm reviewing & perhaps changing the camera position for composition.
There are two tasks that I do a lot when I'm shooting with my Alpa in particular - display the numeric level indicator when I'm setting up or have adjusted composition, and review a full screen histogram. I'm spoilt because of the processing power of the IQ and I'd like to be able to set up mine so that I can get to these two views in a single button press or gesture from anywhere, or perhaps as my default display combo that I can override to get to menus or the normal display modes. I'm often using gloves and/or shooting in low light so finger tip navigation isn't always as easy as it might seem at times.
Heck, with my reading eyesight these days I'd even like the numeric level be displayed in large letters alongside the 'horizon view' full screen. And while I'm at it, again for tech camera use, how about a release time display that always shows in 1/2 seconds how long I've triggered the shutter for (not just when the display is on already), perhaps even a beep per second? I'm often shooting for multiple seconds in low light which means bulb/T with the cable release and at the same time looking at my watch. I have a hugely powerful $$$k imaging computer in front of me that surely could manage to act as a nice big & clear digital timer display.
Now I know that these needs don't apply to everybody but why not allow me to set up my IQ for just my configuration. I'm sure that many people would hate their back configured like mine so why not just let it be more customizable than just which order the 'thumbnails' are displayed in the split image view.
I agree that it's easy enough to navigate there with a few taps on screen depending upon which mode you are in - and that's the thing, depending on where you are. It might be a single press of the 'play' button into the split preview/scrolling level/hilight/focus/info/level or it might involve more navigation from a full screen mode including display or 'live view' when I'm reviewing & perhaps changing the camera position for composition.
There are two tasks that I do a lot when I'm shooting with my Alpa in particular - display the numeric level indicator when I'm setting up or have adjusted composition, and review a full screen histogram. I'm spoilt because of the processing power of the IQ and I'd like to be able to set up mine so that I can get to these two views in a single button press or gesture from anywhere, or perhaps as my default display combo that I can override to get to menus or the normal display modes. I'm often using gloves and/or shooting in low light so finger tip navigation isn't always as easy as it might seem at times.
Heck, with my reading eyesight these days I'd even like the numeric level be displayed in large letters alongside the 'horizon view' full screen. And while I'm at it, again for tech camera use, how about a release time display that always shows in 1/2 seconds how long I've triggered the shutter for (not just when the display is on already), perhaps even a beep per second? I'm often shooting for multiple seconds in low light which means bulb/T with the cable release and at the same time looking at my watch. I have a hugely powerful $$$k imaging computer in front of me that surely could manage to act as a nice big & clear digital timer display.
Now I know that these needs don't apply to everybody but why not allow me to set up my IQ for just my configuration. I'm sure that many people would hate their back configured like mine so why not just let it be more customizable than just which order the 'thumbnails' are displayed in the split image view.