Sinar Hy6 first impressions

[thsinar]

Guy,

Our exclusive distributor for US is SinarBron Imaging, in Edison, NJ (see details below). They are working with a network of dealers, but I do not have the details of them, since the US is not my country.

ADDENDUM: I have just found the dealers list on SBI's webpage. Please go to:

http://www.sinarbron.com/dealers.php

in LA:

CALUMET PHOTOGRAHIC
1135 N. HIGHLAND AVE.
LOS ANGELES, CA 90038
(323) 466-1238
(323) 466-1906 (FAX) www.calumetphoto.com

or:

SAMY'S CAMERA
431 S. FAIRFAX AVE.
LOS ANGELES, CA 90036
(323) 938-2420
(323) 937-2919 (FAX) www.samys.com

& in NY:

FOTO CARE
136 W. 21ST ST.
NEW YORK, NY 10011
(212) 741-2990
(212) 741-3217 (FAX)
[email protected]
www.fotocare.com

or:

CALUMET PHOTOGRAPHIC
16 W. 19TH ST.
NEW YORK, NY 10011
(212) 989-8500
(212) 627-9088 (FAX) www.calumetphoto.com

Yes, I think SBI and Sinar will be at the PMA.

Best regards,
Thierry

Sinar Bron Imaging
17 Progress Street
Edison, N.J. 08820

Phone: (+1) 908 754 58 00
Fax: (+1) 908 754 58 07
E-mail: [email protected]
Website: www.sinarbron.com

Thierry who is a major retailer in the US of Sinar . I am in the southwest part of the country but i travel a lot to NY and will be in LA for 2 weeks in January. I would just like to at least look at the systems. i will also be stopping in at PMA also before Jack and I travel to Moab Utah to do our workshop there, will Sinar be at PMA also.

 

[PeterA]

Just to add a bit of joviality in the discussion...

I really enjoy using my CF adaptor on the blad...( it makes a really loud clunking noise when you cock it and when it fires) with V lenses on board. if I close my eyes and listen as I release the shutter - it is almost as if I am shooting with a 500 series camera.

The Hy6/AFi ( who are they trying to kid with different labels on the same box anyway? ) makes the same clunky sound when it fires - and goes one further with grinding slow auto focus to complete the retro package.

I think Hasselblad should do a deal with Nikon and ask them if they can record a motor driven Nikon F3. Perhaps the next generation of H cameras could include a tiny high powered speaker with user dial preferences for the camera sound that suits the occasion... that would be a blast I reckon ...

A final thought on the 'rotating back' - will be a real bummer if the chip makers ever go to square format chip wont it ? LOL

 

[rainer-v]

.... and i would like to see the rotation back with a motor drive and an auto detector which decides if the motif is horizontal or vertical.
there could be a menue ( deep inside as canons mirror-up function ) which overrides the auto positioning,- but only for the next shot.

 

[thsinar]

Dear Peter,

I don't know what this "poor" Hy6 has done to you, must be awful!

However, everywhere it has been used by photographers the feedback is very positive and all are excited, and I don't say that as a "marketing hype". But I wish to answer because I don't like any bad bashing of a product, being it Sinar or any other brand.

The AF, which you mention, has been tested in many occasions side by side (by photographers using the H series) with the H2/H3 and is in fact a bit faster. Further, it does not grind more than the Hasselblad one. And, in low light conditions there is a "redlight grid" projected to help the focus (not available on the H). I would suggest to read some reports made by others who have used it in real shots.

The different brand packages: we do try to "kid" nobody!

The Hy6 is a common project including companies like Jenoptik (the designer and project owner/payer), Franke & Heidecke (the manufacturer), Leaf & Sinar selling this camera (with digital backs) and F&H selling it as well as an analog camera (no digital backs sold through F&H).

The Sinarbacks can be fit as well on a Leaf AFi, as much as the corresponding Leaf backs can be mounted on a Sinar Hy6.

Revolving adapter: I don't see your point. This is an ADAPTER, which is first OPTIONAL (for those who need it), and which can be TAKEN AWAY from the digital back, like for ANY adapter for Sinarbacks.

FYI: Sinarbacks can be used on any common MF and LF camera with the right adapter, no need to get a new back when changing the camera brand/platform.

I hope this gives some information which seem to be lacking.

Thanks and best regards,
Thierry

Just to add a bit of joviality in the discussion...

I really enjoy using my CF adaptor on the blad...( it makes a really loud clunking noise when you cock it and when it fires) with V lenses on board. if I close my eyes and listen as I release the shutter - it is almost as if I am shooting with a 500 series camera.

The Hy6/AFi ( who are they trying to kid with different labels on the same box anyway? ) makes the same clunky sound when it fires - and goes one further with grinding slow auto focus to complete the retro package.

I think Hasselblad should do a deal with Nikon and ask them if they can record a motor driven Nikon F3. Perhaps the next generation of H cameras could include a tiny high powered speaker with user dial preferences for the camera sound that suits the occasion... that would be a blast I reckon ...

A final thought on the 'rotating back' - will be a real bummer if the chip makers ever go to square format chip wont it ? LOL

 

[kipling]

Dear Peter,

I don't know what this "poor" Hy6 has done to you, must be awful!

However, everywhere it has been used by photographers the feedback is very positive and all are excited, and I don't say that as a "marketing hype". But I wish to answer because I don't like any bad bashing of a product, being it Sinar or any other brand.

The AF, which you mention, has been tested in many occasions side by side (by photographers using the H series) with the H2/H3 and is in fact a bit faster. Further, it does not grind more than the Hasselblad one. And, in low light conditions there is a "redlight grid" projected to help the focus (not available on the H). I would suggest to read some reports made by others who have used it in real shots.

The different brand packages: we do try to "kid" nobody!

The Hy6 is a common project including companies like Jenoptik (the designer and project owner/payer), Franke & Heidecke (the manufacturer), Leaf & Sinar selling this camera (with digital backs) and F&H selling it as well as an analog camera (no digital backs sold through F&H).

The Sinarbacks can be fit as well on a Leaf AFi, as much as the corresponding Leaf backs can be mounted on a Sinar Hy6.

Revolving adapter: I don't see your point. This is an ADAPTER, which is first OPTIONAL (for those who need it), and which can be TAKEN AWAY from the digital back, like for ANY adapter for Sinarbacks.

FYI: Sinarbacks can be used on any common MF and LF camera with the right adapter, no need to get a new back when changing the camera brand/platform.

I hope this gives some information which seem to be lacking.

Thanks and best regards,
Thierry

Thierry, is it possible that Marc and Pete both had bum Hy6's for testing? Or is this AF speed and sound different with each Schneider lens?

It's also a little disturbing that the zoom lens is practicly twice the cost of the Hasselblad zoom but certainly not better. Or have you the opinion that the Schneider lenses out perform the Hasselblad lenses?

Thanks for any information you might have.

 

[thsinar]

hi Kipling,

I don't know what happened in Melbourne, but our distributor told me that all went well. I am still trying to get more info on the AF experience made by Peter: I can't understand this, since everywhere the Hy6 is compared it outperforms the H. It might be that the Hy6 did not have the latest firmware, but has to be checked.

I won't make any comment on lens, since I don't know how the tests have been done to compare. But I have had the Schneider 80mm AFD myself for a couple of days and I was impressed with the results.

Here also the official catalog prices published by our distributor SBI in the US (I could not get the AFD prices from them yet), concerning the Sinar Hy6:

Sinar Hy6 Digital Combo/75LV $32,500.00
Sinar Hy6 Digital Combo/54LV $27,500.00
Sinar Hy6 Body $4,381.00
Prism Finder 90 Degree Hy6 $1,366.00
Waist Level Finder Hy6 $456.00
Film Magazine Adapter 4560 Hy6 $537.00

Schneider AF S-Ang 50mm F2.8 HFT PQS $4,549.00
Schneider AF Xenotar 80mm F2.8 PQS $2,161.00
Sch AF Tele-Xenar 150mm F4 HFT PQS $3,865.00
Schneider Tele-Xenar 180mm F2.8 PQ $4,536.00
Schneider AF Variogon 60-140 F4.6 PQS $5,636.00
Sch Super-Angulon 40mm F3.5 HFT PQ $4,768.00
Sch Apo-Tele-Xenar 300mm F4 HFT PQ $5,900.00
Schneider Variogon 140-280 F5.6 HFT PQ $6,855.00
Schneider Xenotar 80mm F2.8 HFT PQS $2,058.00
Sch Apo-Symmar 90mm F4 HFT PQS $3,697.00
Zeiss Distagon 50mm F4 EL HFT PQS $2,098.00
Zeiss Planar 110mm F2 HFT PQ $4,871.00
Zeiss Makro Planar 120mm F4 HFT PQS $3,952.00
Zeiss Sonnar 150mm F4 HFT PQS $3,031.00
Zeiss Sonnar 250mm F5.6 HFT PQS $3,543.00

Best regards,
Thierry

Thierry, is it possible that Marc and Pete both had bum Hy6's for testing? Or is this AF speed and sound different with each Schneider lens?

It's also a little disturbing that the zoom lens is practicly twice the cost of the Hasselblad zoom but certainly not better. Or have you the opinion that the Schneider lenses out perform the Hasselblad lenses?

Thanks for any information you might have.

 

[fotografz]

I guess the Leaf AFi I tried did not have the latest firmware either because it DID NOT outperform either of my Hasselblad H3Ds AF ... which do have the latest firmware, and do have improved AF over previous versions.

So I hope people are comparing apples-to-apples in the case of either the Hy6 OR the H camera. I just assumed the Hy6 being demo'ed was up to date and the lens a good example of what you get.

BTW, those prices are not what was quoted to me by the Leaf AFi rep.

AFi-7, Camera and AFi-7 back (no lens): $36,000.

Schneider AF lenses (not concerned with the non-digital, non-AF lenses which can be had on the used market):

50/2.8: $5,142.
80/2.8: $3,100
150/4 : (didn't have price yet)
180/2.8: $5,864.
60-140/4.6: $6,916

When you add up all the differences it's a big chunk of change.

How much is the rotating back adapter?

Still wish this could replace my Mamiya RZ and Aptus 75s, but I can't even get a whisper of what a upgrade path would be from a 1 month old Aptus 75s.

 

[PeterA]

Thierry - the least of Sinar/Leaf's concerns are whether the auto focus is slower or faster on the Hy6. it actually doesn't matter even if your 'Schneider' auto focus lenses make a touch more or less noise than H1. It actually doesn't even matter that the pricing of the lenses ( thanks for your posted prices - they bare little resemblance to what was quoted to me) is slightly higher or lower.It doesn't matter whether you have a rotating back or not. It doesn't matter if your LCD screen is tiny and useless in the field. None of these things matter very much.

What matters is that the whole system works.

Most commentary on cameras I read in forums like this is irrelevant to me. Wether the commentary comes from an employee of a company, or whether it comes from people wanting to score points because of personality disorders or self proclaimed professionals - all these things are irrelevant.

What matters is that the whole system and workflow works for me.

At the end of the day, all I want to be able to do is have the practicality of a 35mm system with better resolution/colour than what 35mm format delivers.
I want my MFDB system to give me (at least) the quality of work flow and ease of use that Canon/Nikon/Leica deliver already.

For the money paid - MFDB should be an orders of magnitude better experience than 35mm - it isn't. This fact is why your industry is in serious decline.

btw the meeting with the people who have Sinar and Leaf distribution down here did go very well - I placed my order for a HD3 soon after.

 

[thsinar]

hi fotografz,

I am pretty sure that the AFi did not have the latest FW, but was a pre-production demo unit.

The prices I have posted are exclusively Sinar SBI prices. Leaf is free to have their own prices.

The revolving adapter is around $ 1'500 here in Switzerland (I don't know the price in the US).

Upgrades: I can't speak for Leaf and what is their policy here.

Best regards,
Thierry

I guess the Leaf AFi I tried did not have the latest firmware either because it DID NOT outperform either of my Hasselblad H3Ds AF ... which do have the latest firmware, and do have improved AF over previous versions.

So I hope people are comparing apples-to-apples in the case of either the Hy6 OR the H camera. I just assumed the Hy6 being demo'ed was up to date and the lens a good example of what you get.

BTW, those prices are not what was quoted to me by the Leaf AFi rep.

AFi-7, Camera and AFi-7 back (no lens): $36,000.

Schneider AF lenses (not concerned with the non-digital, non-AF lenses which can be had on the used market):

50/2.8: $5,142.
80/2.8: $3,100
150/4 : (didn't have price yet)
180/2.8: $5,864.
60-140/4.6: $6,916

When you add up all the differences it's a big chunk of change.

How much is the rotating back adapter?

Still wish this could replace my Mamiya RZ and Aptus 75s, but I can't even get a whisper of what a upgrade path would be from a 1 month old Aptus 75s.

 

[thsinar]

hi Peter,

yes, I totally agree with this: at the end it has to work for you, nothing more.

Prices: those published by me are US prices. "Down" there in AU they are certainly different, like they might be different elsewhere. It was just an indication since this site is based in the US.

Your comment about the meeting with the Sinar/Leaf distributor is strange for me. Andrew did mention excatly the opposite to me, so I'll have to check this out.

Looking forward to meet you in Melboure during one of my next visit there.

Best regards,
Thierry

Thierry - the least of Sinar/Leaf's concerns are whether the auto focus is slower or faster on the Hy6. it actually doesn't matter even if your 'Schneider' auto focus lenses make a touch more or less noise than H1. It actually doesn't even matter that the pricing of the lenses ( thanks for your posted prices - they bare little resemblance to what was quoted to me) is slightly higher or lower.It doesn't matter whether you have a rotating back or not. It doesn't matter if your LCD screen is tiny and useless in the field. None of these things matter very much.

What matters is that the whole system works.

Most commentary on cameras I read in forums like this is irrelevant to me. Wether the commentary comes from an employee of a company, or whether it comes from people wanting to score points because of personality disorders or self proclaimed professionals - all these things are irrelevant.

What matters is that the whole system and workflow works for me.

At the end of the day, all I want to be able to do is have the practicality of a 35mm system with better resolution/colour than what 35mm format delivers.
I want my MFDB system to give me (at least) the quality of work flow and ease of use that Canon/Nikon/Leica deliver already.

For the money paid - MFDB should be an orders of magnitude better experience than 35mm - it isn't. This fact is why your industry is in serious decline.

btw the meeting with the people who have Sinar and Leaf distribution down here did go very well - I placed my order for a HD3 soon after.

 

[PeterA]

Thierry - Andrew and his associate actually took the time and trouble to meet me at my farm on a Friday afternoon - which is a pleasant 100km drive out of the CBD. I would enjoy meeting you in melbourne any time. Yes of course the meeting went well - they are very nice and very helpful people and many things were clarified for me at that meeting and in subsequent presentation by Hasselblad in my offices the following week.

The major issue for me (in teh end) had little to do with the hardware - (as you can see by my joke above) in the end it was about software and work flow integration. I am planning two much needed holidays in the near future and I wanted to be ready for Paris in late December/January - hence perhaps my decision before the first quarter next year when I am sure everything will be just right from Sinar and Leaf.

I think I am not a 'typical' customer. I am not a working photographic professional, I have had my arm twisted a few times to do some editorial style work but I really have no interest, I don't really care how much something costs - I am just very very very 'time poor' therefore I place a premium on whether something fits into my eccentric way of thinking or not.

I look forward to Synar and Leaf having much success with their systems as well as Phase One - like many I am not 'married' to any system - I just have ( perhaps unreasonably) high expectations of ease of use.

It is with regret that I say that right now - both Sinar and Leaf do not offer me the ease of use that I require. As I have said - I am sure that things will improve over time. The best response to Hasselblad's 'closed' system is for other consortiums to offer blad users functionality and integration on their camera systems - that would be very smart. I will look at the open system Rollie with great interest for exactly this reason.

All the best
PeterA

 

[fotografz]

I think there are important marketing points being discussed/debated here. And perhaps those that market these products could analyze the dynamics at play to help better market their products. Sorry for the longish post, but I think there is some important "Consumer Insights" being overlooked by marketers of this product.

PLUS, there is still a HOT sales opportunity for some Sinar rep toward the end of my post.

I do not know what other Hy6 demonstrations have yielded, or who said what, about what. I know what I experienced, have read what Peter experienced, and trust my good friend Irakly's impressions perhaps most of all since he owns an extensive Rollei system ... 3 hot prospects for this revolutionary camera/system ... all 3 with experience in MF digital photography ... all 3 no longer HOT prospects as far as I can tell (one lost for sure since Peter has ordered a H3D).

Like Peter, I can pretty much get whatever I deem necessary to fulfill my photographic tasks. In a similar manner, I am somewhat immune to hype concerning incremental nuances deemed as improvements that are quite frankly debatable. When it is my direct experiences, in my studio, using my lighting verses faceless "professional" endorsers ... I win every time ... it's my money not theirs.

Let me go on record as saying that the Hy6 in any Brand form is a VERY nice camera system. It would occupy a high place on the shopping list IF I were starting from scratch. But I wonder how many prospects for this camera are starting from scratch? Not me. Not Peter. Not Irakly. Not anyone I know that is looking at this camera.

I own and use two H3Ds (39 & 31), a Mamiya mount Aptus 75s, and a Hasselblad CFV for use on a 203FE system ... plus a Rollei Xact with a Kapture Group sliding back for the H/39 back.

I was looking at the Hy6 to replace an aging Mamiya RZ system. So comparisons to the H system were/are not revenant, and attacking the H in comparison simply serves to irritate since it is a proven, stable, fast, and highly productive product for me ... where the Hy6 is unproven.

Naturally, my interest first turned to the Leaf AFi version of the Hy6 because I own the latest, greatest Leaf Aptus 75s. Early photo's of the AFi showed an Aptus back just like mine. Imagine my surprise when I was told my one month old, $28,000 Leaf back will not work on the Leaf AFi, that the AFi is a totally different animal !!!! When the Leaf rep came to my studio to demonstrate the AFi, the back was indeed totally different. No one knows what upgrade path will be available, or when (the unknown). No retailer has shown an interest in an upgrade path, or working with me.

Now that leaves Sinar.

Being an open platform, it appears I could use my existing Aptus 75s back on a Sinar Hy6, Is this right or not? If so will it interface without having to resort to sync cords?

As a replacement for the Mamiya RZ this is an improvement I can grasp. As a replacement for the H3Ds, it would NEVER happen.

If I could use my Aptus back with a nominal charge to replace the mount or pay for an adapter, I'd do it in a heart beat. Camera and even a few of the overpriced AF lenses ... probably three AF lenses to start with.

The other question is USA service. I have a highly responsive Hasselblad dealer, where I've no idea who I'd turn to for service issues with Sinar (more unknowns).

SO, where is someone to take my order if this could happen?

Think about it. While not immediately buying a Sinar digital back, I would be in the system and a natural for the next Sinar digital development ... and an ongoing prospect for years to come ... just exactly like I have been for Hasselblad.

 

[thsinar]

Dear Marc,

I am honestly not here to make any marketing: I have said this clearly in my introduction post.
When I compare to the H series, it is because that was the only comparisons which I have seen with my own eyes, and thus able to speak about. I never make any claim without having seen it, experienced it myself, simply based on things I heard.

This being said: again, Leaf is one thing, and I am speaking in the name of Sinar. I won't ever allow myself to speak for them or others.

To your specific questions about the Hy6:

- Any Leaf back which can be mounted to the Leaf AFi and which Leaf SUPPORTS for this Leaf AFi DOES FIT and can be mounted on a Sinar Hy6 as well. This means in clear: if Leaf does not make an AFi adapter for one or the other of their existing model, then it can obvioulsy not be mounted on an Hy6.

- Those backs which can be mounted on a Sinar Hy6 have full integration, without cable

- Support issues with Sinar: I have provided the name and contacts from our official and exclusive distributor for the USA (SBI), as well a list of all the dealers accross the country. Please refer to my other post N° 41 below. My knowledge is that they are all very supportive and responsive people and companies.

Now, it is not my intention (and prerogative) to sell you something here, and I doubt there are many "dealers" or "re-sellers" here on this forum. If you which, I can forward your request, but only with your permission, to SBI directly.

Thanks and best regards,
Thierry

I was looking at the Hy6 to replace an aging Mamiya RZ system. So comparisons to the H system were/are not revenant, and attacking the H in comparison simply serves to irritate since it is a proven, stable, fast, and highly productive product for me ... where the Hy6 is unproven.

Now that leaves Sinar.

Being an open platform, it appears I could use my existing Aptus 75s back on a Sinar Hy6, Is this right or not? If so will it interface without having to resort to sync cords?

As a replacement for the Mamiya RZ this is an improvement I can grasp. As a replacement for the H3Ds, it would NEVER happen.

If I could use my Aptus back with a nominal charge to replace the mount or pay for an adapter, I'd do it in a heart beat. Camera and even a few of the overpriced AF lenses ... probably three AF lenses to start with.

The other question is USA service. I have a highly responsive Hasselblad dealer, where I've no idea who I'd turn to for service issues with Sinar (more unknowns).

SO, where is someone to take my order if this could happen?

Think about it. While not immediately buying a Sinar digital back, I would be in the system and a natural for the next Sinar digital development ... and an ongoing prospect for years to come ... just exactly like I have been for Hasselblad.

 

[Graham Mitchell]

Imagine my surprise when I was told my one month old, $28,000 Leaf back will not work on the Leaf AFi, that the AFi is a totally different animal !!!!

Leaf and Phase One backs come in fixed mounts which will only work with one camera. These backs must be replaced when changing platforms. Why would you be surprised?

 

[fotografz]

You mean the mounts have to be replaced, not backs right? For example, I can have the Aptus 75s Mamiya mount replaced with a Hassselblad V mount for $2,000.

However, what's not clear is whether there is a provision for changing the mount on the Aptus 75s to work on the AFi, ... and when I asked that question I was told that "it isn't that easy because the AFi is a whole different animal" by the head of Leaf USA service. There in lies the "surprise" ... A leaf back that won't work on a Leaf camera.

Do you know something that the head of Leaf Service doesn't foto-z?

 

[David K]

Graham,
Actually, I believe it's the mount that requires changing as opposed to the back. I was a bit disappointed myself to learn that my recently upgraded Aptus 75S would not fit the AFi. This might change depending on the upgrade path offered but I've yet to hear what those terms might be, despite repeated requests on several forums by some fairly well known photographers using Leaf. It almost feels as if the marketing towards the upgrade buyer is less important to Leaf than the new buyer. I've got no idea what the relative size of these two groups is in the "buying pool" but I suspect, as Marc suggests, that there is a lot more potential with the upgraders.

 

[fotografz]

Perhaps what may not be particularly understood is that the Hy6 represents an investment in the future. The most costly aspect of all this is contained in one element of the system .... the back itself.

The Hy6 camera backs use the same chip. That chip is the same one I already have in the Aptus 75s ... in fact, the software would be the same if I selected the AFi.

So, it is what may come yet in sensor design (6X6?) that makes one think of the Hy6. But to survive long enough to let the larger chips make it to market, it seems that the Hy6 companies would be wise to pave the way for upgrade as quickly as possible. Once in, it's a captive market for the next wave of backs .... which I have to believe is where the money is.

 

[fotografz]

Thierry, I appreciate your efforts at clarity, as I am sure others in search for more lucid answers are. That aspect of "marketing" is most welcome IMO.

I would also greatly appreciate a referral for a re-seller in the USA that you know to be informed and responsive. I would like to pursue the notion of inspecting a Sinar Hy6 to replace my RZ system. I am a serious prospect with an extensive investment in MF digital already.

If you prefer private message I can be reached at:

[email protected]

Thank you, Marc Williams

 

[thsinar]

Dear Marc,

you are welcome.

I have sent you an email at your address below.

Best regards,
Thierry

Thierry, I appreciate your efforts at clarity, as I am sure others in search for more lucid answers are. That aspect of "marketing" is most welcome IMO.

I would also greatly appreciate a referral for a re-seller in the USA that you know to be informed and responsive. I would like to pursue the notion of inspecting a Sinar Hy6 to replace my RZ system. I am a serious prospect with an extensive investment in MF digital already.

If you prefer private message I can be reached at:

[email protected]

Thank you, Marc Williams

 

[Samuel Axelsson]

You mean the mounts have to be replaced, not backs right? For example, I can have the Aptus 75s Mamiya mount replaced with a Hassselblad V mount for $2,000.

However, what's not clear is whether there is a provision for changing the mount on the Aptus 75s to work on the AFi, ... and when I asked that question I was told that "it isn't that easy because the AFi is a whole different animal" by the head of Leaf USA service. There in lies the "surprise" ... A leaf back that won't work on a Leaf camera.

Do you know something that the head of Leaf Service doesn't foto-z?

The Aptus 75s will fit the hy6 with an adapter plate. No problem there...
The problem is that Leaf won't sell you a separate Hy6 body. You need to purchase the entire system. In your case, you need to upgrade your already purchased 75s. Amazing but true.