Help, I'm thinking of going with Sinar Hy6, 54 LV

[Guy Mancuso]

Now I should point out that the Sinar is a complex machine too so you really have to RTFM because it baffled all of us on site. To me this is a engineer's dream camera and it is gorgeous but the last time I looked i was a photographer not a engineer. Let's keep things in perspective. I was handed 3 Phase backs and was running in 1 minute not to say anything here but sometimes simplicity rules the roost. This depends on what you want and how you like certain things to function and where they are placed. This is all personal choice here and no system is the best for everyone. The Sinar is on top of the food chain in price when you start adding the system together that does not always translate into the best working machine. I find the system as a system clunky to some degree and needs some refinement in software and this 3rd party software. I don't know the whole system in's and out's but from my seat there was a little head scratching going on. i do think even though Thierry jumped in and others from Sinar they need to look at there US operation closely because no one from Florida showed up to help if you know my meaning. Luckily it was not me i would have thrown it under a bus at the time. The question is do you have time to lose images and get frustrated. i don't want to sweep this under the carpet but i do want everyone to be aware also. Does no one any good saying all is fine when the guy struggled his ass off on my workshop that he paid a lot of money to be there also. I was there folks and i was not happy for him. This is not a dig against Sinar but let's be honest time, it's new and it needs refinement. I came from the DMR and M8 and if anyone knows this it is me. not saying do not buy a Sinar far from it but know how the system works before you drop your load and make sure it fits you and your style. This goes for any system and there all good just which one is the most comfortable to sleep with every night.

 

[EH21]

If you ask me the back that's really confusing is the Leaf. First off you have to look at it to use it since its a touch screen and it has a bazillion features which are all probably wonderful to use, but not so easy to get familiar with it. I dislike the touch screen since you can't really operate it while doing something else like I can the phase. After using it a few times, I could glance up a the model or multiplex while formating cards or whatever with the phase. It's a tiny thing but makes a difference.

Surprised to hear anything but praise on the Hy6 camera because when I shot with it, everything fell to hand directly and seemed very intuitive to me, though admittedly I did not try any of the advanced features like focus trap.

I expect to eventually give up my 6008 and migrate to the Hy6 so good to hear the user feedback.

A good pair of shoes does not break in as fast but wears longer.

 

[Jack]

There was certainly something to be said for the simplicity of the Phase menus. took less than a minute (seriously) to set the back up exactly the way you wanted it, and as Guy said, that was without reading any manual.

The issue with the Hy6 was the fact it was easy to inadvertently move a button and change a setting because none of the buttons lock...

 

[thsinar]

Victor,

WAS? I hope it still is!



Best regards,
Thierry

That said-The ISO Sinar was impressive

Victor

 

[Guy Mancuso]

No question the Sinar is impressive but do know how to work it.

 

[fotografz]

If you ask me the back that's really confusing is the Leaf. First off you have to look at it to use it since its a touch screen and it has a bazillion features which are all probably wonderful to use, but not so easy to get familiar with it. I dislike the touch screen since you can't really operate it while doing something else like I can the phase. After using it a few times, I could glance up a the model or multiplex while formating cards or whatever with the phase. It's a tiny thing but makes a difference.

Surprised to hear anything but praise on the Hy6 camera because when I shot with it, everything fell to hand directly and seemed very intuitive to me, though admittedly I did not try any of the advanced features like focus trap.

I expect to eventually give up my 6008 and migrate to the Hy6 so good to hear the user feedback.

A good pair of shoes does not break in as fast but wears longer.

Funny, I thought it would take a monkey about 20 seconds to learn how to operate a Leaf Aptus back ... even though it took me 30 seconds ... LOL.

 

[David K]

Funny, I thought it would take a monkey about 20 seconds to learn how to operate a Leaf Aptus back ... even though it took me 30 seconds ... LOL.

It would have to be a rich monkey... probably smarter than the average monkey I find it interesting, especially based on my recent experience, how some people find certain things intuitive and others just don't see it as easily.

 

[KurtKamka]

What I'm finding not so intuitive is the ability to become one of those monkeys from the rich barrel so that I can afford an even more expensive back.

 

[PeterA]

Opinions about this or that are quite common gentlemen - wouldn't you agree?

I like a balanced perspective put out there - too much fan boy stuff sometimes.

 

[Stuart Richardson]

Now on size, WOW, that tells it all.

The Contax is clearly smaller (only Mamiya is similar, yet fatter in the middriff

Think of cube. If the Contax is only 10-20 % smaller in any dimasion that translates to 1.1 **3 to 1.2**3 or a factor of of 33 to 73% overall 'cube" increase.

It's funny what different eyes see...they all look pretty much identical in size to me. The Contax and Hasselblad seemed larger and clunkier in person to me than the Hy6, but again, everyone's eyes and hands are different. The Hy6 feels nicest to me, but I don't own any of them, so I suppose it doesn't really make a difference.

 

[thsinar]

Here some other comparison views, under the eye of a H3D user, "khun_k" on LL (http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=17771&st=0=)

Admitted, the Hy6 does not show the 90° prism as on the other cameras, but it gives however a good idea of sizes.

Best regards,
Thierry

 

[gogopix]

This is really a hoot!

I though it was only in statistics that you could prove anything you wanted
Nope---photography.

Now, when we show comparisons of the contax, can we take off the battery, pack, extra grip and the "L" bracket?

here again is what it really looks like..

BTW (watch, ad hominum argument coming) I have no financial, sales or resale interest in Contax. I don't need to justify a purchase to myself or anyone else. I have owned for over 4 years and it is written off.

Why do I argue for people to consider it? Because I think it is damn good, and deserves to be exposed to forum members who maybe can't afford the new high prices, or maybe appreciate the IQ that the system provides. Many others tout and show there stuff. Well, I'll show the Contax. I would hope others do as well. If you think something is is oversaturated, oversharpened or miss developed in raw, hell, I'll send you the raw and you can see for yourself.

Anyway, so far it is normal male arm wrestling, so I will continue to spar, though it is a bit lonely in this corner.

In the end, the real battle is between Hy6, H3D and Mamiya and Phase and Sinar and Leaf. But I still contend all the arguments are on features rather than basic quality, so for those that just want a solid basic system, the Contax (with Phase) is a great alternative.

 

[thsinar]

why take away the extra grip and the battery pack?

The Hy6 is shown as well with a grip and the battery is inside the grip.

But as said by others, different eyes different interpretations: no harm with this, all have their value.

Best regards,
Thierry

Now, when we show comparisons of the contax, can we take off the battery, pack, extra grip and the "L" bracket?

 

[EH21]

I guess the takeaway in all these MF comparision images is that the Leica R9/DMR is really bloated. Funny I didn't think so last time I shot it.

Marc,
I didn't mean I couldn't figure it out, just that I didn't want to figure all that out and didn't like the touch screen. It's slow. Anyone out there give up a blackberry with full keypad to get an iphone? I swear I could type at least 3 times as fast while doing something else on the blackberry. Touch screens are slow IMHO. I can't complain about the big screen the leaf has though.

 

[thsinar]

Guy,

with all due respect, the eMotion and the Hy6 aren't that complicated. There are a couple of things to get familiar with concerning the Hy6 body, agreed. I had to use the Hy6 body a few time as well to get used to it, and this is for most of the issues mentioned the "normal" learning curve.

As for the eMotion, it has a self-explaining and user friendly menu which cannot lead to any major mistake, IMO. I don't think that it is any more complicated than a Phase One back menu, which I have used as well on many occasions.

But as you said, this is all personal views and choices. It does not take away from the frustration for not being able to shoot during a workshop and I do frankly understand David's own frustration very well.

FYI: I have got additional information this morning (Asian time) from Michael Ulsacker, the Sinar dealer, from Dave McRitchie, the SBI sales representative for the East Coast and from Greg King, SBI's manager: I believe this shows the level of commitment, support and service a Sinar customer is getting, all this in less than 24 hours.

I feel myself sorry, that nobody from Sinar was attending this workshop as the Phase One dealer did, but I do not know the reason for this: may be they have not been informed or aware of this workshop and about the invitation to join?

Thanks for your care and kind regards,
Thierry

Now I should point out that the Sinar is a complex machine too so you really have to RTFM because it baffled all of us on site. To me this is a engineer's dream camera and it is gorgeous but the last time I looked i was a photographer not a engineer. Let's keep things in perspective. I was handed 3 Phase backs and was running in 1 minute not to say anything here but sometimes simplicity rules the roost. This depends on what you want and how you like certain things to function and where they are placed. This is all personal choice here and no system is the best for everyone. The Sinar is on top of the food chain in price when you start adding the system together that does not always translate into the best working machine. I find the system as a system clunky to some degree and needs some refinement in software and this 3rd party software. I don't know the whole system in's and out's but from my seat there was a little head scratching going on. i do think even though Thierry jumped in and others from Sinar they need to look at there US operation closely because no one from Florida showed up to help if you know my meaning. Luckily it was not me i would have thrown it under a bus at the time. The question is do you have time to lose images and get frustrated. i don't want to sweep this under the carpet but i do want everyone to be aware also. Does no one any good saying all is fine when the guy struggled his ass off on my workshop that he paid a lot of money to be there also. I was there folks and i was not happy for him. This is not a dig against Sinar but let's be honest time, it's new and it needs refinement. I came from the DMR and M8 and if anyone knows this it is me. not saying do not buy a Sinar far from it but know how the system works before you drop your load and make sure it fits you and your style. This goes for any system and there all good just which one is the most comfortable to sleep with every night.

 

[Guy Mancuso]

Well no way i am trying to hurt Sinar in any way shape or form. But I want folks to be aware of what the system is like and how the need to understand it and no question folks from Sinar jumped all over his situation. I don't like things overlooked either and folks need to know what there buying reason we talk about this stuff all day long. But to be honest Thierry i did not have to read a manual to shoot the Phase be it available or not. This is not about this vs that either which honestly i have no desire to even go down that route with any system. There all good IMHO but again I find my role sometimes to be outspoken and in no way do I want that to be construed as bad but just being upfront and I want people to do there homework and study things before they buy. After 35 years I still do it and i would be a fool not to understand everything I could when making a purchase. Water under the bridge at this point and the best news is Sinar came to the rescue and more than anything that is what I wanted to see happen.

Now as far as the workshops CI asked us to come and Steve at PPR did as well. Since we had a small group this time we did not want to overload the attendees with too much product around. Next workshop Steve is invited as well as CI and Jack and I would love to have Sinar on board as well. The only concern we have is having enough folks on the workshop so it is a good venue and a more MF shooting style. But we would love to have all the MF gear in one place for folks to evaluate each system and make decisions. We are in planning stages right now for at least 4 workshops and also a huge excursion to Iceland. We feel having all this in one place makes it worth some ones time to come to a workshop and learn all they can before making a decision and also learn on the workshop on how to work better and be a better shooter. Our workshops are a kick in the pants and folks love to come to them for the fun , learning and friendships that are built.


I also even thought about several other venues like a mini convention with seminars, product demo's and PS techniques and charge a reasonable fee for folks to attend for 2 days. A very mini PMA style .

 

[Stuart Richardson]

I have to agree with Guy here. I think the Sinar has a logic to it once you have figured out how to use it, but it is not as intuitive as most other camera makers...I am talking about the back here, not the body. The body is pretty straightforward (at least it was for me). To give you an example, when I went in to test the Hy6, the dealer did not know how to change the ISO and could not figure it out , even after several minutes (to his credit, he asked me several times if he could get the Sinar rep to come to the demo, but I only wanted to see it very briefly, so I did not want to have the person drive all the way to NYC to help a possible buyer for 20 minutes). He had just received the camera, so he did not know it yet. I eventually figured it out, but it was NOT a straightforward process. Now, I like to think of myself as a reasonably intelligent guy and I have used many camera systems -- the dealer deals in Leaf, Hasselblad and Mamiya digital backs as well, so between us there was a lot of experience, yet both of us had difficulty changing basic settings. To me that is a sign that the menu system could be improved.

And, please please please, do not take this as a dig at the system. I think it is a superb camera and back and if I could afford one I would buy it in a second, but there is definitely room for improvement in some aspects of the interface. This of course applies to all camera systems. To this day, I am driven to madness by the fact that the Mamiya 7II, such a brilliant camera, only lets you change the shutter and aperture in full stops! Unforgivable!

 

[David K]

I think Steve Hendrix already mentioned that he'd be in Orlando on June 13th (also with Dave McRitchie, regional manager for Sinar out of Edison, NJ). Steve asked me to look around for a host studio so maybe that lighting forum that you've been thinking about might be a possibility at the same time. Kind of short notice though to get things organized.

 

[David K]

Stuart,
I mentioned in another thread how interesting I find it that our respective intuitions differ. If you're an M8 user, having a separate Settings menu, is something that I've grown to like. Some folks don't like it at all IIRC from some of the M8 threads. Having internal storage does add a dimension (and menu settings) that other backs do not have. Whether that's a plus or minus depends on the user's preferences. On more than one occasion I've filled my 8GB CF card (not hard to do with these file sizes) and found that having the overflow to internal memory so that I could continue shooting without changing cards was a blessing.

 

[Guy Mancuso]

You got me thinking David, we also have David at Dale labs with full studio space to host something. Heck i just volunteered him. LOL But yes a perfect venue for something like this with a lighting seminar and some models to shoot with all the backs. Hmmm