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Special Report/Phase LS and Elinchrom Speed Transmitter

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
Morning everyone thought I would pass along some important data after buying a 80 LS lens and the NEW Elinchrom Speed Skyport transmitter. Located here
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/696329-REG/Elinchrom_EL_19350_Skyport_SPEED_Transmitter.html

As we all know the new Phase LS lenses go to 1/1600 in sync speed with the LS glass on the P40+,P65+ and I know some Leaf backs and Mamiya backs. Maybe Yair can give us those model numbers of Leaf for us. Now I have the P40+ back BUT my back can ONLY go as high as 1/800 right now and needs a hardware update because it is a older back/ New ones not the case and you can check this and go to very last page on about on the back and look for normal or extended . Extended is capable of 1/1600 normal is 1/800. But in this case it may not matter because i don't think the transmitter will go any higher than the speed I got from it with the LS glass. Now for the report I used my Elinchrom Quadra packs on half power just to make sure I had a very fast light output speed. Not sure of that number but I will check. Anyway with the sync CORD I can go straight to 1/800 with no issues and with the a P40+ with a extended back right to 1/1600. So not a issue and works as advertised in Phases case. Now with the Elinchrom Speed transmitter the best I can get before I started losing F stops was 1/400 even though it is rated at 1/250 for focal lenses. The Leaf lenses can squeeze it to 1/400 because of the different Leaf design.

For some reason and I may have to go back and try this the Elinchrom was set to normal and that was what worked but would not work in speed mode on my DF. Not sure it would get anymore out of it but 1/400 is what I got. Now given the regular focal plane shutter i could only get 1/125th sync speed this got me somewhat excited because a 100 dollar item got me to 1/400.

Now you know in the back of my mind I am thinking the new Vertical grip with the Profoto module for flash and can go right to 1/1600 with the extended backs which BTW almost all the new ones this is the case , my back was a very early version so may want to check yours for sure. So what does a Elinchrom user do here is the question. Can I get away with 1/400 or buy the Vertical grip and the Profoto module and go that route. Obviously I bring this up because I own Elinchrom so need to think about which route to take. I like the Vertical grip and may get that for sure but I may have to buy 3 modules for my three mono heads. Sure you can use the slave but with sometimes people around shooting off there P&S cams you are screwed.

Anyway i thought I would report this because even in other systems outside Profoto lighting we have to address this module thing. But for users of Elinchrom this is not so bad but obviously does not take us to 1/1600 wirlessly.

Now one reason I went Elinchrom was these skyports they are very small on top of your cam and you can control power and modeling lamps right from the transmitter. I hate giving that up
 

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
Let's keep our eye on Photokinia as some flash manufactures maybe addressing the NEW 1/1600 speed in there lighting packages and remotes more importantly
 

symbolphoto

New member
I'm confused, you are losing too much light above 1/400th you are saying?

I'm using the Speed at 1/800th on Hasselblad no problems. Both Ranger RX AS and Quadra RX.

Is there something different about the Mamiya that makes them not sync properly between 400 and 800?
 

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
I'm confused, you are losing too much light above 1/400th you are saying?

Yes the light starts to fade out with Leaf lenses . If it was focal plane it would just cut it off

I'm using the Speed at 1/800th on Hasselblad no problems. Both Ranger RX AS and Quadra RX.

Is this with Skyports or cords?
?

The cords work fine it is the skyports that are the issue

Is there something different about the Mamiya that makes them not sync properly between 400 and 800?

Using a cord now with my back I can go right to 1/800 no issues with the newer P40+ backs right to 1/1600 with cord

Our limitations is the Skyports and I just could not get it past 1/400
 

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
BTW I could squeeze 1/500 but I lose about 3/4 of a stop. Leaf lenses I believe when syncing go from outside diameter in. Need confirm on this though
 

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
Side note for Phase users check your back for extended in the menu go to configuration scroll all they way and it either says DB LS normal or DB LS extended.
 

symbolphoto

New member
That's interesting, for reference, i shot this with Hasselblad H3DII-31, HC35 lens, with Quadra;






Both at around 1/750th, with no perceivable falloff.... in harsh mid-day sun, so that's rather odd. And i'm not even using them in speed mode. Maybe I'm doing something wrong myself... or just not noticing the slight falloff. I'll have to re-meter next time and pay attention to any inconsistencies.
 
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Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
Yes what was interesting is as the higher the sync speed got past 1/400 it got darker and darker and you can compensate by opening up. All this is wireless as the cord not a issue and want to make that clear.

BTW nice captures

Are you using wireless here or cords.
 

symbolphoto

New member
All wireless. I may not be noticing lower than 1 stop loss. But anything higher and my meter would be WAY off. Interesting. We have a large shoot on the 26th, i'll have to keep a close eye out.
 

dougpeterson

Workshop Member
I'm confused, you are losing too much light above 1/400th you are saying?

I'm using the Speed at 1/800th on Hasselblad no problems. Both Ranger RX AS and Quadra RX.

Is there something different about the Mamiya that makes them not sync properly between 400 and 800?
You probably are experiencing what Guy is describing.

Grab your camera and flashes and go to a dark room (so ambient light does not confuse your interpretation of the results). Keep the flash power and aperture/ISO the same and just shoot 1/400th and 1/800th. The 1/800th will likely be darker even though it should be identical. Now if you aren't metering with a light meter (e.g. you're using the histogram and LCD to determine flash exposure) and you're comparing similar shots with different shutter speeds you won't notice the effect - and it's not that you can't shoot at 1/800th (as your wonderful images show you can) it's just you're not seeing the full flash power you should be.

Getting flash to sync at that speed through wireless transmitters is pretty challenging and most systems cannot do it (e.g. a PocketWizard Plus II falls off at 640 and is very underexposed at 800 relative to metering of the flash's output).

Now I've not used the specific setup you're using. So it's possible that your system is capable of no-light-loss. If that's the case the forum would be very grateful for a quick test to show it because so many wireless flash sync systems cannot do so.

For this reason I was very surprised the built in radio flash transmitter in the Phase One / Mamiya V-Grip Air is spec'd at 1/1600th wireless flash sync without any loss of light. In fact I'm still a bit skeptical and can't wait to get my hands on it and test it.

Doug Peterson (e-mail Me)
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Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
Yea if we where dealing with a focal shutter it would be very obvious as it cuts it off but the way a leaf shutter works it will just keep darkening until complete darkness shows. So we have to figure out the point you start loosing light. Pretty dang interesting how this works
 

aldo

New member
I did the other day a quick test (In a dark room) with a Ranger Quadra A (at full power) + H4D-40 + 100mm f/2.2 + skyports. No problem syncing at 1/800. But I found that from 1/125th to 1/500th you loose about a half of stop... from 1/125 to 1/800 you loose about a 2/3 of stop...
 

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
Is this with the older transmitters or the newer one.

BTW I did not do this tethered and went more by the LCD screen. Sounds like I should do it again tethered and record it better
 

symbolphoto

New member
Well i wonder if it's a function of the speed alone? Or are we are hitting the duration of the flash at a different point?

1. Is it the 'burn-in' of time that we are losing the power?
2. Or is it the point in which we are hitting the duration of the flash isn't at full power yet?
3. Both?
 

adamduckworth

New member
Hello fellas

My first post in the forum was a few months ago when I posted about this issue.

I have a latest P40+ and use Elinchrom Rangers and Quadras, with Skyport (not Speed, yet) and Pocket Wizard Plus IIs, plus the LS leaf shutter lenses.

Guy is right, the only way to get 1600th sync is with a cable. A standard Skyport or Plus II works to 400th sec. A PW Multimax set to "fast" works without any major loss to 640th sec, and a bit of a loss at 800th. Above that, it doesn't work.

It's because of the encoding in the wireless, claims the tech boffins at Elinchrom and the bloke who invented Pocket Wizard who I contacted.

Simply put, the transmitter has to encode the message, send it to the receiver which has to de-code it, then set the flash off. That coding-decoding bit causes the delay. Hence none will work properly.

From what I understand, the Profoto, set to 'fast' works differently. At normal speeds it works just like the PW and Skyport. BUT at high sync speeds (for the built-in thing with the grip), it's constantly sending a signal to the receiver... so that all the encoding/decoding thing is already done... they are already "linked up", like a paired bluetooth phone sort of thing.

So when the shutter is pressed, the signal to "go" is very quick, hence it can sync higher. The clue is that if the high-speed sync is enabled on the grip, then the battery life of the triggers is much reduced.

Of course, I probably have it not 100% correct or technically right... but I believe I'm not far off and that's why Skyport Speed or anything else (like PW) won't sync higher.

Go on techno types, shoot me down...
 

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
Actually sounds very reasonable thinking and be the last to argue on it. My back was shipped off today to mother ship for the hardware upgrade so when she returns i will see if it does anything but I know I will get 1/1600 now with at least the cord. I do agree the limitations on this are not the lens back or body but the remotes themselves.
 

symbolphoto

New member
Well i think what profoto has done with that grip is similar to what Elinchrom has attempted with the speed mode. I think that's why batteries drain faster and the Rx/Tx distance is reduced.

Now i don't know all the tech hub-bub, but i think that's similar to the Speed mode in Elinchrom. Now does that explain why Guy is only getting about 1/400th? No, i'm not sure why that is...
 

adamduckworth

New member
I'm inclinded to disagree and say it's not what Elinchrom have done with the Skyport Speed. That uses a faster decoding/ encoding thing... so it's not quite so "secure" and the distance it works at is reduced.

The Profoto, I believe, is very different. It's constantly in "contact" with the receiver, so the "encoding" is already done. That's why it's much faster and why it gives a reduced battery life.
 

symbolphoto

New member
I'm inclinded to disagree and say it's not what Elinchrom have done with the Skyport Speed.
I guess i'm wondering how you can come to that conclusion? We have no contact with their engineers, and very often Elinchrom and Profoto copy each other in terms of features, and both coming out so close together, i wouldn't be surprised to find that's the case.

I don't have any direct access with any of the engineers at Elinchrom, but i'll ask the USA rep if he can ask someone over there.

I'm very curious on this aspect, only because i wonder where we go from here. Now that we've reduced the signals to just the bits we need to actually trigger and bypass the encoding/decoding, what's left to make it faster?

I wonder if there is a higher frequency that we can go to for the next generation of products that will result in even faster sync times with no loss of light.

.02
 
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