i also dont really understand all the mess, and dont really care to understand.
i know the hy6 is the best camera, leaf back is as good as other two at least.
as for 80mp - too expensive anyway, although im sure the quality should be amazing, and maybe even significant progress over leaf-II-10 beyond extra resolution.
mess or not... HY6 now, and in the future (if it continuous to develop somehow) is The Best camera for such a back together with some technical cameras+lenses.
If there would be any interest in supporting AFi mount the easiest thing for Phase/Leaf would be a Leaf back with this mount. But obviously there is no interest. Therefore it's even less likely that Phase will make one.
I never quite understood what exactly happened with the Hy6/AFi mount.
I remember when I had a Leaf Aptus 75s in M mount and demo'ed the AFi ... only to find out that my 75s couldn't be used, or the mount adapted to the AFi. I was told that the 75s couldn't be adapted due to the complex proprietary integrated technology of the AFi ( which sounded odd to me).
Unfortunately, Leaf also wasn't interested in providing any upgrade path the way Phase and Hassey always have. This made going to the AFi way to expensive just to get the camera system since the AFi back was no better than the Aptus 75s I already had. That's when I said bye-bye to Leaf.
Perhaps it was a "mutual" shutting out on the part of Leaf and Phase due to the same complex interface issues that prevented Leaf's own backs from being used on the AFi? Lot's of effort would have been required on the part of Phase to fit how many cameras? And Leaf would be making AFis without a back for someone else's digital back ... camera's they probably weren't making much, if anything, on anyway.
As to R&D... you can't bulit in the Leaf firmware into a Phase One back... so for a Phase back some R&D would be neccessary in any case.
A Leaf back is not a Phase One back - so it makes a difference. Phase does not even have the interface (i.e. the actual physical mount) ...
no interest on the part of Leaf and PhaseNo interest? There are at least 3 people in this thread alone who are interested, me included
Again: Leaf does not even support Contax on the new Apt.12 (at least not initially - and they will only make a mount when demand is high enough) - and the Contax user base is defintely larger than the AFi user base (at least I think we can consider this to be certain even without knowing the real numbers).
The arguments that Leaf isn't Phase or Phase doesn't have what Leaf has are baffling to me. It seems to me that this LEAF back could be offered in Hy6 mount with a minimum of effort by Leaf Imaging (wholly owned by Phase One), if they so desired, given the existence of the AFi-II 10R.
(Granted, there could be significant work to do, or there might not be--hard to say, not knowing how they've designed the II series architecture. I'm simply assuming they designed it with an eye to be updated to new sensors.)
Regardless, I'm with Graham. I'd give it serious consideration if it were an option.
If the list is long enough we'll consider developing a new back.
if the discount is large enough I would consider to buy one
Last edited by thomas; 25th September 2010 at 04:53.
Me personally I'd probably use such a high rez monster exclusively on a tech camera... so if I'd buy one I'd most likely take one in Phase/Mamiya mount and keep my retro DBs for the Contax. Simpy because it's easier to sell a back in that mount one day (if necessary).
I have a suggestion: how about to find out the starting clients from Hy6/AFi
users through Leaf dealers? Let’s say if Leaf can find out 5 potential clients
who would like to buy new AFi-II 12 back or upgrade their existing AFi backs AND
willing to be asked for a $5000~$10000 non-refundable deposit, will Leaf develope
such a AFi-II 12 back? I believe Leaf can have a try which will not hurt anyone.
Porsche was not sure to produce 918 till they received about positive response from 2000 people. Why Leaf cannot do that? Check this:
now please can somebody tell me what is so special about the HY6/AFI ? I never got the chance to put my fingers on one. the only thing I saw was some gorgeous impressions shot with the 80mm xenotar. and well ok.. WLF and 45° prism.. which is not truly a exclusive rollei feature…
and yes thomas… I bet there wouldn't be 5 orders placed if the mount would be available tomorrow :-)
- It actually has viewfinder options unlike some!
- great lenses, fast apertures and with leaf shutters offering up to 1/1000 flash sync
- by using a 6x6 format, the camera can remain upright at all times while just the sensor/back is rotated between landscape and portrait. This also allows use of WLF in portrait mode!
- more obscure features such as focus bracketing and focus trapping
The first 4 on the list are really what nail it for me.
Just to explain my reasons for wanting to order a back in hy6 mount. I have a hy6 system and a arTec with a few lenses - so a considerable investment in hy6 mount cameras. The cameras and lenses are EXCELLENT and I see nothing camera wise on the market that remotely tempts me ( apart from ARCA ) In fact Im also happy with my LVR75 back. The lure of the Leaf back is the wider sensor and its use with wide lenses.I am prepared to fork out the money for one but shudder at the thought of selling all my gear and starting from scratch.
oh and to add to Graham's list - the zeiss 110 f2 lens is a reason in itself to have a hy6!!
There was a rumor of AFI backs locked up in a USA warehouse, caught in the no-more Hy6/AFI complexities. Could one imagine them upgraded to newer sensor, without the hassle of changing mounts?
We used to be a Sinar customer, including both the Hy6 and M camera systems. We asked them if they could custom adapt Aptus-10 backs for these systems. They said they would only do it for a bulk order of 35 backs minimum. Needless to say, we ended up selling off all of our Sinar equipment and switched to another vendor.
So, I believe that if enough people are willing to put the money up front, you could indeed adapt these new Aptus-12 backs to your Hy6/AFi as well. Also, there was about a 15% surcharge over the retail price of the backs in this case.
Anyway, I wil upgrade to AFi-II 12 from AFi7 if Leaf have such business.
OK, I admit that I would not buy one-since I am just happy with what I have (75LV) and right now it does more than I need.
The price development in MF world is so extreme that I believe here as long as you are not super rich or a pro who really needs the latest and greatest and makes a lot of money with it - it just a lot of money. I could buy my 75LV for a price which others paid 50% more few month earlier and still the value of my MF gear is much lower just after 1-2 years.
The value of Leica M lenses is a dream compared to MF gear.
Back to the question how many people would buy a Hy6 version of that Leaf back:
Even if I were superrich I would only buy such a back form a company where I feel to understand what they plan in the future and where I could rely on their product strategy. Therefore as a Hy6 owner I would rely much more on Sinar than on Leaf, and this discussion here goes in the same direction.
Leaf has sold AFIs, but today it seems they do mainly think in direct future sales/profit. Maybe making a AFI version of that back wouldnt generate direct profit, but maybe those AFI owners would build up trust in Leaf and could be held as a future customer.
Anyways I am glad that both Leaf and Sinar have staid in the market.
wow, this is really good news!
But after too many experiences of missed deliveries, I can say that I no longer make commitments to this industry based on products that have not yet shipped.
That being said, and speaking only for myself, I would expect to pay what I'd pay for an Aptus-II 12R less the V mount, plus the time and materials for the "customization" work, if you wanted to call it that, to make it into an AFi-II 12.
(My hope would be that Phase has margin in the product itself, and wanting to see the A*-II 12 technology in the field and would seek coverage of costs--not additional margin--on the customization work.)
Alternatively, an upgrade fee (equal to a reasonable Aptus-II 10 to an Aptus-II 12 upgrade fee) + customization costs would also be acceptable--for this charge, I would send in my AFi-II 10 and get back an AFi-II 12.
If either approach sounds reasonable, I invite you to PM me to discuss a way forward.
Last edited by BradleyGibson; 26th September 2010 at 21:38.
Funny thread !
Here is some facts from an Hy6 owner. In fact I swapped Phase One P45+ and body with Bradley for his Hy6 and 75LVr about a month or so before Sinar were announce dead.
I recently sent the Hy6 back to Sinar via the new dealer here in Australia - well not so new anymore.
(oh and LISTEN UP YAIR - too bad Dave isn't your rep for Leaf..and good luck with the mess of spaghetti down here in Australia that pretends to be a dealer..hahah what a Joke)
anyway back to main story..sent the Hy6 back to Sinar to check it out. Seems that the Hy6 I got from Bradley was one of those early bodies which were not quite right and because of the mess with the F&H situation took a while for Sinar to get organised.
They didn't repair it - they sent me a knew body how is that for customer service from a dead camera and a dead company?
As for a Leaf back on the Hy6 - what a great idea!
but seriously i am sick and tired reading from all these dealers of other brands ..how their systems are open...
but umm not open to Hy6 ..
yep the GFC was bad timing for the Hy6 release a real pity.
Still it suits me because it is a fantastic camera body with a fantastic set of lenses..Sinar isnt dead either - and I will be adding a film back - listen up all you stuck in pathetic 645 land - real MF starts at 6X6
just use an Hy6 and check out its lovely UNCLUNCKY shutter ..so smooth ..just try some of that 'real' Schneider glass in Rollie mount or the 110/2 yeah of course you have to have one! or maybe check out its metering system..or its beauitiful WLF viewfinder..
such a great system - good thing I dont give a ratz about what the ..'herd' likes or thinks.
So you keep making backs for H1s and H2s Yair and the occassional 'fantastic' Mamiya bodies ( teh ones were you count to ten after you press the shutter release?? you know because you KNOW that Phase One dealers are pushing Leaf real hard!!!- hahahahaha gimme a break..
Seriously - it is ok for people to say "we aren't allowed to make a hy6 mount" because Phase One rules the world... - another thing to say "there aren't any users base" - that is a cheap shot buddy and if Phase One don't like the Hy6 - well sell the rights to someone prepared to actually give the system some life.
I think you're quoting another person here...I never said there's no user base or that we're not allowed to make backs for Hy6...
It is no secret that most digital backs (from all brands) sold these days are in Mamiya/ Phase One mount...
One other thing I should have mentioned is that I live in semi remote area of west australia - Ive never met David we live 1000s of kms apart, all our dealings have been on the phone so basically I first rang him saying Ive got a s/h HY6 can you help me out? Seen in that light gives you a idea of how helpful he really is.
I do hope to meet David later this year - and will definitely be buying him a beer!!!
I'm a bit late, but thank you all, Graham,Peter, t_streng for the info on the Hy6. at closer look it seems to be a very interesting system. very practical/ergonomical thing to have a WLF in combination with this kind of grip. especially when I think of shooting from down low perspective. doing the snake thing on your belly is not a great pleasure in photography… at least not for me :-) don't know about the hassy HVM and metering option but it doesn't seem to be te same thing. in this case the Hy6 has the edge…
Peter's thoughts (although I probably would have put them a touch more delicatlely ) very much echo my own experiences, across the brands.
It really was a joy to work with the camera. My issue was with the Sinarback's workflow--using it and getting the pictures into Lightroom was simply much too cumbersome. (For example, it took me two months to go through and process all the work I did on a shoot in Iceland. Typically I would be able to get through that volume of work in 1-2 weeks.)
Leaf took it to the next level with the internal rotating sensor and the tilting screen. Grab your back and put it behind that gorgeous Schneider glass--I think you'll be glad you did.
Peter--I'm curious about the "old" body vs. the "new" bodies--are you noticing any differences as you shoot with it?
Waist level finder has always been the key ingredient for me - I find that by looking on the glass, I can compose and recompose quickly for about 10 different views, until I get the right one. For some reason, the view through a prism just doesn't do the same.
The Hy6 seems to have all the right pieces. Mine was an NOS (new old stock) body from DHW, and a demo Leaf back from somewhere else. Surprisingly, the two went together with narry a problem: DHW upgraded the firmware to the latest, and actually fitted the handle for a Leaf battery, so that the camera would only use one type of battery. What could be better?
The camera works very well, and goes nicely with all the 6000 PQ glass accumulated over 20 years of Rollei shooting. Its not the lightest, nor the smallest, nor the fastest. But boy is it flexible, and responsive. More keepers than ever.
Then you can allways also change the viewfinder to the really nice 45 degrees viewfinder when you want (I use WLF much more often).
The lenses are superb even though some of them quite heavy and big.
Still I admit sometimes a smaller system would have its advantages being less heavy and obstrusive. I wouldnt want to have to use my Hy6 as my only camera system-in this case Iwould rather go something like the S2 or Phamiya or maybe the new Pentax.
Not to go too far OT, but have you tried the 80 f 2..8 AF lens on the Hy6? Its AF is right on, its a small light lens, and amazingly sharp.