Theory: Multishot, microstep, wide-angle-lens, tech camera question ...

[Paul Spinnler]

Hi guys

I just read that hasselblad announced at Photokina that the h4d-50MS would at some point in the future be able to produce 200 mpx images through an upgrade at the factory.

That got me wondering: How do multishot and microstep technology play together with a vew camera and movements? Specifically, are there any problems with regard to color casts? Is it possible to use the hasselblad digital multishot back in the multishot mode on a tech cam?

On a technical camera one can do image-circle stitching and thus generate higher-resolution images. By shifting the digital back though, and depending the brand and model of the back, one will get more or less color casts with extreme movements. Usually one can get rid of this by way of lens cast correction algorithms withing Capture One, Phocus etc.

But what happens if I would want to create multiple 200 mpx images with the new multishot camera and stitch them with a tech cam, say a Cambo RS or Alpa Max?

Would one be able to create huge 300 mpx architectural imagery?

Kind Regards

Paul

 

[thomas]

Would one be able to create huge 300 mpx architectural imagery?

unless you travel with a kind of David Copperfield studio that isolates you from the environmental conditions I think multishot is for studio work with extremely sturdy tripods only... especially when the sensor moves half the pixel size to increase resolution.
So while the microstep multishot mode will most likely work I guess it is only usable under extremely controlled conditions.

 

[etrigan63]

The Multishot System is drive by Phocus and if it detects any light variation or movement of any kind, it will abort the shoot. I was at a Hassy demo the other day, and a passing train caused Phocus to abort the shoot due to ground vibrations.

 

[Dustbak]

Phocus will not abort the take. It will warn you there has been movement detected. It will do so after it has taken all the shots for the multishot. Actually sometimes Phocus will warn you while there even hasn't been any movement (which has another reason but probably goes too far to address here).

I use multishot often and not only in the studio. You do need a sturdy tripod, my Gitzo with good head is good enough. Preferably you have a subject that stays still or at least mostly still.

It is bad practice not to take a single shot with every multishot. You can blend in parts of the single shot take in anything that has been moving in the multishot take.

That is talking multishot. Microstep was another story. That has to have a sturdy setup as well as a fixed still subject. There is no single shot take to blend into the bad parts with microstep.

Multishot is much more usable than most people, that often have never or rarely used it, give it credit for.

 

[etrigan63]

If you say so Dustbak. I just know that Phocus aborted the take when the train went past at the show I was at. Maybe it was a setting or maybe a loose cord.

 

[fotografz]

Paul, yes, a multishot can be used on a tech camera. Yes, the camera has to be stable and locked down ... and it has to be tethered to a computer because it is controlled by the Phocus software. The trick in using a tech camera is cocking the shutter multiple times. Studios that do this on a regular basis use electronic shutters.

I have a CF39MS back in my studio which can be used on most any MFD camera or Tech camera via a series of iAdapters, and I can use it on my manual shutter Rollei Xact-II kit.

The way I have to work with my Rollei Xact-II is to use the MS setting in Phocus which delays the interval between step/shots to allow time to manually re-cock the shutter, and for minor camera vibrations to settle down. So, you compose and adjust lighting using single-shot until you and/or the client are pleased ... then when ready, you shoot the multi-shot final version.

On my H2F camera I can shoot with any interval timing available as long as the strobes can fully recycle that fast (depends on light output). BTW, I do not have to adjust the strobe settings when switching from Single Shot to Multi-Shot.

Color casts are not an issue ... I've done MS images using the HTS/1.5 with pretty severe tilts to increase DOF for macro work. I haven't tried it yet doing shifts for stitching, but I will now since it sounds like a fun experiment.

I know nothing of the impending 200 meg version, or any use/issues it may have on a tech camera. We'll have to wait to find that out.

-Marc

 

[rhsu]

Paul,

Have a look/test Sinar new multishot 50mp (Dalsa - employing the new wide angle microlenses) - image "friendly" with tech cameras/ TS lenses.

It may lack the LED preview on the DB but that should not matter. The live-view when tethered is hardware driven and not software (bigger difference).

Sinar has a long list of camera compatibility files on their DBs. Although I cannot comment how the new 50mp would work with PhaseOne camera, the presumption would be that it "must" rather than it "should", as all previous Sinar DBs have worked well.

I have used and played with the earlier Sinar Multishot and used Imacon.

Off the topic slightly, I managed to re-engineer both my Cambo RS Hy6 interface plate and the two Cambo RS interface plate locks/latches so that the Sinar Hy6 rotating adapter on the DB will work. So now I have a rotating DB on my Cambo RS. This should work with Alpa as well, but should be easier because the plate holder with Alpa is "flatter" allowing the rotation. The only down side is I need to change DB adapter back to PhaseOne so to use the DF camera.

 

[Dustbak]

If you say so Dustbak. I just know that Phocus aborted the take when the train went past at the show I was at. Maybe it was a setting or maybe a loose cord.

That sounds more like a firewire error to me. There are still some issues with Phocus and MS where the software kills the take. Either due to firewire ports that deliver irregular power or some other flukes/bugs/anomalies.

 

[fotografz]

That sounds more like a firewire error to me. There are still some issues with Phocus and MS where the software kills the take. Either due to firewire ports that deliver irregular power or some other flukes/bugs/anomalies.

Yep, you definitely need a good FW 800 cord under 20' or use a powered repeater ... and use the FW800 port in the back of the computer rather than the flakey front port. That's a LOT of data being pushed through pretty fast.

Only once have I received the notice: "Camera Motion Detected" as a warning that the take was probably no good. For the life of me I can't recall whether it aborted the shot ... but it's irrelevant ... it was no good because my wife opened the garage door under my studio just as I was shooting MS , so I shot a second one.

My MS set-up has been rock solid using Phocus 2.5.2 on my MAC Tower of Power ... but I haven't tried MS with my laptop ... the graphics card is probably to wimpy to drive Phocus with MS.

-Marc

 

[Nick-T]

unless you travel with a kind of David Copperfield studio that isolates you from the environmental conditions I think multishot is for studio work with extremely sturdy tripods only... especially when the sensor moves half the pixel size to increase resolution.
So while the microstep multishot mode will most likely work I guess it is only usable under extremely controlled conditions.

Thomas have you used a multi-shot system? I have to ask because like Ray I have shot multi-shot on location for years. All it takes is good technique and an eye on the environment. I shot a home furnishings catalogue for 5 years on location and could not have done it (properly) without my multi-shot and not just for moires in textiles but for super accurate colour.

Nick-T

 

[thomas]

Thomas have you used a multi-shot system?

Hi Nick,

no. but I've followed some contributions from Thierry H., "Dustbak" and others on LuLa. There is a consensus that you might need the single shot version of your MS shot to paint in some details that are corrupt in the actual MS file. This is escpecially the case when you can't control everything (lighting, subject).
While this is certainly great for the conventional multishot workflow this will not work for the microstep thing. And even if, you don't end up with a file that is really 200MP. And that is the most important point here.
Paul was refering to "300MPx architectural imagery"… which is not interior.
I shoot a lot of architectural imagery and even exposure bracketing to do some HDR can be an issue sometimes (due to moving lights/shadows, trees or other plants … or whatever). The same goes for stichting.
Of course there is always a workaround, particularly in post. But these workarounds won't work for the microstep thing… and even if they will work to some degree, again, the final result is not 200MP. Actually it's easy: if anything in the subject (or the camera) moves by only 3 microns … you won't get 200MP.

But I admit: first let's wait and see…

 

[rhsu]

Nick,

With greatest respect, due care must be adhered to whether one is a “user” or a “depository” information from a “reliable” 1st hand source (ie credible source). When that source is no-longer 1st hand, then the admissibility and authoritative weight diminish. Thomas comment has no hint that he held himself out as a MS “user” – but a comment that he shared is so true to those users out there whether past, current or future. You do not need to actually “go to hell” in order to say “it’s like hell”. But of course we can say “POS” because we have seen enough of it to qualify.

Ironically and with good humour, your comment, by implication, upheld Thomas’ opinion (ie “… like Ray…”).

You and Ray (and others) with MS have a work-around the DNA of MS shooting outside of studio environment. In my early days as a MS “user”, I gave up my perseverance with the “out-of-studio” environment. Ie tripod, lighting, FW, laptop etc…

So I opted with a single-shot with the largest pixel sensor affordable. Simple one would thought!? (won’t comment any further other than “I backed the wrong horse” for the last 3yrs.)

Many Art/Museum galleries are returning to MS. Many also are opting for the lenses from the two finest Germany lens mfgrs for their copy work. So finding a MS DB that would work with tech-camera is critical. Many are starting to go with Sinar MS.

 

[fotografz]

Nick,

With greatest respect, due care must be adhered to whether one is a “user” or a “depository” information from a “reliable” 1st hand source (ie credible source). When that source is no-longer 1st hand, then the admissibility and authoritative weight diminish. Thomas comment has no hint that he held himself out as a MS “user” – but a comment that he shared is so true to those users out there whether past, current or future. You do not need to actually “go to hell” in order to say “it’s like hell”. But of course we can say “POS” because we have seen enough of it to qualify.

Ironically and with good humour, your comment, by implication, upheld Thomas’ opinion (ie “… like Ray…”).

You and Ray (and others) with MS have a work-around the DNA of MS shooting outside of studio environment. In my early days as a MS “user”, I gave up my perseverance with the “out-of-studio” environment. Ie tripod, lighting, FW, laptop etc…

So I opted with a single-shot with the largest pixel sensor affordable. Simple one would thought!? (won’t comment any further other than “I backed the wrong horse” for the last 3yrs.)

Many Art/Museum galleries are returning to MS. Many also are opting for the lenses from the two finest Germany lens mfgrs for their copy work. So finding a MS DB that would work with tech-camera is critical. Many are starting to go with Sinar MS.

We should all keep in mind the notion of "Horses for Courses".

The best application for Multi-Shot is indeed in the studio in a controlled environment. Obviously the camera has to be locked down on a good tripod ... which is true for single shot commercial product work also.

Or MS employed on location where most elements are controlled ... like interior architecture for example ... if there are windows with some movement of shrubs, or the like ... who cares if one uses a single shot to clean up those areas of zero importance to the subject matter? What matters is detail, lack of Morie, and accurate color of the product ... which is where MS excels. I did some work yesterday using available light in an interior shooting to my lap top, and 4 shot never aborted or compromised anything.

From the above post, I am wondering what Multi-Shot DB doesn't work on a Tech or View camera using Rodenstock or Schneider lenses? It is not difficult to find a MSDB that works on these cameras ... they all do.

I use a CF39/MS on a H2F camera, a Mamiya RZ Pro-II and my Rollei Xact2 view camera. I can shoot MS in studio one day ... and shoot to a CF card in single shot as with any regular non-MS digital back the next day. Very versatile piece of kit compared to a dedicated MS back with no LCD.

I cannot justify moving to a 80 meg so called "MS Killer" ... and will await testimony from those who employ one on the job over time. In the meantime, my $15K CF/39MS provides more of what my clients demand.

BTW, I think Sinar's new 86H 49 meg MS back is terrific news ... it simply underscores the viability of MS for necessary applications.

I also think the MS Micro-Step news from Hasselblad is very exciting ... and can't wait to hear about and see samples of the final results ... which we can only speculate on right now. For me it defines a path forward in a technology application I highly value and appreciate first hand. Good reason to consider the H4D/50MS in future because it maintains that prized versatility, and adds the astounding performance of the H4 camera with true focus when shooting single shot people work, etc.

-Marc

 

[rhsu]

Marc,


When using studio flash/strobe, there is no timing issue with copal shutters with HB. I tested at 1/500th in studio light and perfect. Shoot at 1/500th outdoor (without studio light), you see PINK. Drive the shutter to 1/30th, everything is normal. It was my main issue with all 3 HB DBs ie H3D39, H4D 39 and CF39. (And yes - work around is a wake-up cable).

Funny though that the same 2 copal shutters on two separate Rodenstock lenses, originally deemed by HB as faulty, and one of them was kindly and complimentary replaced by Linos, also returned with the same timing issues. Yet both lenses seem to work perfectly well with Leaf, PhaseOne and Sinar via “single shot” cable.

I agree with you that the lack of DB preview with current Sinar 49mp MS is a let down and have raised this with Sinar - more out of curious rather than a potential buyer. Their rationale given is somewhat "their respectful opinion" and no doubt P1 lack of a MS DB is also in their respectful opinion.

I enjoyed the Imacon MS in the early days when I got the chance to borrow it. Single shot and multi-shot on the one DB on V/H series cameras outdoors and with my LF indoor mounted on the studio stand!

Micro-steps and how it will work with copal shutter is my inference to a DB whether it will work seemingly well with tech camera. No doubt when used with studio floor pack, there is no issue with timing.

So as Thomas said: “let’s wait and see…”

 

[David Grover / Phase One]

If you say so Dustbak. I just know that Phocus aborted the take when the train went past at the show I was at. Maybe it was a setting or maybe a loose cord.

The shot is never aborted - just a warning giving so you can check if there is too much disturbance.

 

[thomas]

We should all keep in mind the notion of "Horses for Courses".

agreed! I think MS is a terrific feature and I really believe the results are outstanding... if the shooting conditons allow using the MS mode.

Re the initial post... I think everyone can make an educated guess about the usabilty of the microstep-MS for their respective motifs:
- set up your super camera on your super tripod
- release the camera with your super cable release
- wait 2 seconds (or the time it will take to move the sensor in micro steps...) ... don't change any of your camera/lens-settings... and simply take the same shot for a second time.
- open both the captures on a layerd TIF in Photoshop and set the opacity of the upper layer to 50%. All the details that are tack sharp on that image would profit from the microstep mode... and all the details that are blurred would not profit from it.

Working in exteriors I think there are (almost always) too much things that are moving (marginally, but still) ... even the camera resp. the tripod might move slightly when it's windy (which is not an issue at all for single shots, but would be an issue for microstep MS). Now add the fact that on a tech camera you mostly shoot at base ISO and around f11... so working in natural daylight you rarely shoot at really fast shutter speeds... and that might make the microstep-MS mode even more complicated.

 

[fotografz]

The shot is never aborted - just a warning giving so you can check if there is too much disturbance.

Actually David it can happen.

The other day I experienced a situation where my CF/39MS would fire the initial calibration shot, then only 2 Multi-Shots and then stopped without firing the other 2 MS.
The dialog box came up saying that movement was detected and image quality may have been compromised. Obviously the preview looked okay, but the actual files were jumbled garbage. This consistently happened despite having changed nothing in my studio application of the unit which has worked solidly every time.

At first I thought is was due to my recent updating to the new firmware, and reloaded it, which didn't solve it. So I loaded the previous firmware and that also didn't work.
I then tried the previous version of Phocus with both firmware versions. No cigar. I reverted to the most resent versions of firmware and software ... and called my dealer.

Instant response from Jim Arnosky (kudos to Hassey's dealer response!) We went through a litany of trouble shooting steps based on his pretty extensive experience with MS. I won't go through all of the boring steps, and instead jump to the solution which we discovered through trial and elimination:

The one studio variable was the power level I was using with the Profoto lighting. Although the strobes were seemingly recycling, and the pack was beeping before each multi-shot, I believe as the MS progressed, the recycle time to full power was diminished just enough that the 3rd MS shot was a nano-second ahead of the stobes. I changed the Phocus MS preferences from my usual 3 sec. flash delay to 7 seconds and Eureka! Solved.

Freaking digital back is smarter than I am ...:ROTFL:

I say all this here to possibly save someone else a little trouble shooting time

Marc

BTW, I had always thought my Lap Top to be too wimpy to use MS with ... and in this trouble shooting process found that it works just fine ... so it wasn't all a waste of time.

 

[fotografz]

agreed! I think MS is a terrific feature and I really believe the results are outstanding... if the shooting conditons allow using the MS mode.

Re the initial post... I think everyone can make an educated guess about the usabilty of the microstep-MS for their respective motifs:
- set up your super camera on your super tripod
- release the camera with your super cable release
- wait 2 seconds (or the time it will take to move the sensor in micro steps...) ... don't change any of your camera/lens-settings... and simply take the same shot for a second time.
- open both the captures on a layerd TIF in Photoshop and set the opacity of the upper layer to 50%. All the details that are tack sharp on that image would profit from the microstep mode... and all the details that are blurred would not profit from it.

Working in exteriors I think there are (almost always) too much things that are moving (marginally, but still) ... even the camera resp. the tripod might move slightly when it's windy (which is not an issue at all for single shots, but would be an issue for microstep MS). Now add the fact that on a tech camera you mostly shoot at base ISO and around f11... so working in natural daylight you rarely shoot at really fast shutter speeds... and that might make the microstep-MS mode even more complicated.

Frankly, as a MS users I'd pretty much agree with you.

If I were primarily an exterior shooter for Landscape or architectural studies and the like ... then 50, 60 and 80 meg single shot solutions is where I'd be looking depending on the end applications.

For me Hassey's 50 meg MS would provide the best of both worlds regarding versatility. Sinar would not be on the shopping list due to it's narrow application abilities.

I shoot highly demanding close-ups of fabric swatches for GM car interiors as well as some clothing samples for various clients and interiors with furniture ... and MS has solved all previous issues I experienced using other single shot Hassey or Leaf backs. In addition, I often shoot large groups of people, working interior industrial shots, and research facilities, or exterior facilities ... where the SAME 50MS camera could be utilized in single shot. Good return on investment.

Wish Hassey would update the CF line to include 50MS.

-Marc

 

[thomas]

(...) where the SAME 50MS camera could be utilized in single shot. Good return on investment.

yes, in a certain way you have two devices in one... which is really great!

 

[Dustbak]

Actually David it can happen.

The other day I experienced a situation where my CF/39MS would fire the initial calibration shot, then only 2 Multi-Shots and then stopped without firing the other 2 MS.
The dialog box came up saying that movement was detected and image quality may have been compromised. Obviously the preview looked okay, but the actual files were jumbled garbage. This consistently happened despite having changed nothing in my studio application of the unit which has worked solidly every time.

At first I thought is was due to my recent updating to the new firmware, and reloaded it, which didn't solve it. So I loaded the previous firmware and that also didn't work.
I then tried the previous version of Phocus with both firmware versions. No cigar. I reverted to the most resent versions of firmware and software ... and called my dealer.

Instant response from Jim Arnosky (kudos to Hassey's dealer response!) We went through a litany of trouble shooting steps based on his pretty extensive experience with MS. I won't go through all of the boring steps, and instead jump to the solution which we discovered through trial and elimination:

The one studio variable was the power level I was using with the Profoto lighting. Although the strobes were seemingly recycling, and the pack was beeping before each multi-shot, I believe as the MS progressed, the recycle time to full power was diminished just enough that the 3rd MS shot was a nano-second ahead of the stobes. I changed the Phocus MS preferences from my usual 3 sec. flash delay to 7 seconds and Eureka! Solved.

Freaking digital back is smarter than I am ...:ROTFL:

I say all this here to possibly save someone else a little trouble shooting time

Marc

BTW, I had always thought my Lap Top to be too wimpy to use MS with ... and in this trouble shooting process found that it works just fine ... so it wasn't all a waste of time.

Check on what setting your body is set to go to sleep (somewhere in the menu). If it is anywhere 5s or 10s (default), set it to the highest setting available. There is an issue where the body falls asleep in the middle of a multishot take and you have to kill the session. I typically had this issue with flash delay settings in the 3 to 4 second areas. Indeed it would do so after the 2nd shot mostly.

It took almost 3 quarters of a year before we finally figured out what was causing this and only by accident.