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Need help with my gear (Phase One + ZD Back)

Steve Hendrix

Well-known member
i think ZD starts with 50, at least mine is.
I only know the base ISO of the sensor in the ZD is the same as the Aptus 22 (and Aptus 54, 54-S, II-5), and Jenoptik M22, by the way. The base iSO for all of the Aptus products using that sensor is 25 and I believe the M22 was also 25. I think one time we metered at the 25 setting and it was closer to 18 ISO...

Regardless of the starting available ISO on the ZD, I consider the base ISO to be at 25 and if 50 is the start, it is already pushed.

And this attached result can be achieved with the Color Editor pretty easily, and even improved from this with just a bit more effort.


Steve Hendrix
 

MaxKißler

New member
afaik it is 14 bits.
IMO it has a 14bit ADC but the files are downsampled to 12bits per channel.

However, I'm relieved for I'm sure to have almost solved that purple area mystery! At least it makes perfect sense to me. :D

This is it:
When the camera is pointed towards the source of light and in the moment the sensor is exposed, light is reflected by the IR-Cut filter towards the back of the lens. These reflections are mainly red/magenta like the surface that reflects the light (the IR-Cut filter). Now this light again is reflected by the back of the lens and now passes the IR-Cut filter leaving a little red/magenta colour information in the shadow parts. When I'm pulling shadows the red/magenta areas appear because they dominate over other colour information. This only appears in the shadows as there is enough information in the highlighted areas.
So I guess it has something to do with the back of the lens, probably the (missing?) coating. Since it is not the 45mm D lens which I believe was mainly designed for digital purposes. So the Mamiya AF 45mm lens is not well coated as film didn't reflect?

That only leaves one question:
Why is light reflected by the sensor's filter? Does the filter let only a certain "amount" of light pass thru? Does that even make sense?!

I'm going to post some samples tommorrow to support my thesis.

Thank you Mr. Brittenson, you already gave the answer to this, only didn't I think of it long enough. :thumbup:
 

dougpeterson

Workshop Member
Why is light reflected by the sensor's filter? Does the filter let only a certain "amount" of light pass thru? Does that even make sense?!
Every piece of glass has a transmission rate, which by definition means not 100% of the light passes through it. Generally the better quality the glass the higher the transmission rate. As a case study look up the transmission rates of variously priced UV filters.
 

MaxKißler

New member
That only leaves one question:
Why is light reflected by the sensor's filter? Does the filter let only a certain "amount" of light pass thru? Does that even make sense?!
I realised how stupid the question was or at least how stupidly phrased right after posting it... I thought the IR-Cut filter might absorb that amount of light instead of reflecting it.

Do you think some kind of filter might minimize that effect?
 

fotografz

Well-known member
I realised how stupid the question was or at least how stupidly phrased right after posting it... I thought the IR-Cut filter might absorb that amount of light instead of reflecting it.

Do you think some kind of filter might minimize that effect?
No.

Return the back if you can and hunt down a later model where the issue was fixed.

-Marc
 

Anders_HK

Member
Max

In my opinion, there is probably nothing wrong with your back.

At ISO 100, you are 2 stops pushed from the base ISO of 25. If you push underexposed low key subject matter 2 stops with anything, this or something like it will often be the result.

For my use, in almost all cases, I can just crank up the power on the strobes and shoot at ISO 50/F8, and there, the ZD is just fine.
This was the limitation of the ZD. Or in essence, it was not a product useful within all photographic situations that 50 ISO film was. Thus my impression was (and remain) that it was a clear faulty product, and that at least those old ZDs remain wrong with - a.k.a. they are capable only within a more narrow use than 50 ISO film.

On the contrary, the Aptus 22 with same identical sensor from Dalsa was apprant not having same problem. See Frank Doorhof's review of ZD and read of his jump to Aptus 22 years back http://www.doorhof.nl/blog/index.php?board=11.0. In Luminous-Landscape forum is also much old written of ZD.


I realised how stupid the question was or at least how stupidly phrased right after posting it... I thought the IR-Cut filter might absorb that amount of light instead of reflecting it.

Do you think some kind of filter might minimize that effect?
No idea. You might try an IR block filter on lens filter thread similar to Leica M8 instead of the one in ZD body. You might find used ones but I have no idea if it will work better.

To shoot IR you could instead of buying the ZD IR pass filter remove the ZD IR block and install an IR pass on lens filter threads. That might be cheaper, since possibly more available as used.

You could also process as BW, in which case the purple problem would no longer be purple...

- - -

In all of this time of ZD... it seem remarkable that Mamiya remains quiet of the problem or any fix, is it not???

Regards
Anders
 
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MaxKißler

New member
No idea. You might try an IR block filter on lens filter thread similar to Leica M8 instead of the one in ZD body. You might find used ones but I have no idea if it will work better.
Thanks Anders,

that's a great idea! It should definitely solve that problem and is way cheaper than buying a "D lens" which is out of my reach ATM.
Sadly, I didn't have the same light conditions otherwise I would have showed you why I concluded that these purple spots are IR-Cut filter reflections.

Kind regards
Max
 

ondebanks

Member
Max,

I've been following the ZD colour blotches issue for a long time, and from all the evidence I've seen, I don't believe that it is a case of reflections. In your park sunset image (MMFC0079-2.jpg aka attachment 37702), the geometry is all wrong to invoke sensor/IR filter/lens reflections as the cause of the purple blotches. They should be strongest on a line passing through both the brightest thing in the image (the sun) and the central axis of the image/system. They are nowhere near that line. They are also too irregular in outline. Nor do they mimic the sky in either size or shape. Sorry, but that theory does not fit the data!

It's also unconnected with the bit depth. Lots of backs have 12 bits depth (including my Kodak Proback 645M), and they don't show this effect. In my astrophotography, I sometimes have to push at least as much as the 2 stops you and Steve have shown, and my Kodak does not behave like this. Such as, I shoot at ISO 400 (2 stops above base ISO of 100) and then push it another stop or two!

I'm afraid that's all I can do regarding this colour blotch problem: I can tell you that it's not some of the things you thought it might be; but I cannot tell you what it is. It is the oddest behaviour that I've seen from a CCD sensor. How does one explain colour correlations over such large scales?

Pixel to pixel variations in the flatfield response are normal, but it's not that either - if it were, then the blotches would be just as visible at high signal levels, but of course they're not.

The same reasoning rules out any other multiplicative/percentage-of-signal line of thinking, such as localised variations in the Bayer filters.

No: the problem is only visible at low signal levels, and that points to additive/subtractive effects. The reflections idea falls into this category which is why it would indeed be logically sensible, but as I've already said, it just doesn't seem to work.

My guess (and that's all it is) is that if a bias calibration frame is internally subtracted, it is "awry" over moderate scales: too much or too little bias is being subtracted from groups of pixels. Just a few counts of bias error could upset the low-signal RGB colour ratios over these scales.

Since bias calibration would be under Mamiya's control and embedded in their firmware, it follows that other backs (like Leaf) with the same sensor would not show the same effect, and that the problem could have been solved by Mamiya by the time they released the second generation of ZD backs. In other words, it's a theory which fits the data, but better data might well prove it wrong!

Ray
 

SergeiR

New member
Well i can happily say that i seen same issue on Aptus + C1 processing other day on couple of shots :) Available contra-light, and stange bit of colour in picture, when pulled up about 2.7 steps.

Which leads me to believe that idea about funky re-reflections may be not very far from true ;)
 

ondebanks

Member
Ah, but where is the strange bit of colour occuring? And does it look like normal lens flare? I've seen a mild pink spot in the centre of my Kodak's images when shooting the moon at a frame-filling magnification, through a complicated relay of optics. That may involve a small reflection off the IR filter. But it is visible at high signal levels.

Anyway - there is a very easy way to test if this is due to reflections or not. Photograph a uniform scene (e.g. a white wall or ceiling) with your ZD or Aptus with a small aperture (not wide open), and heavily underexpose it, so that it is all recorded at the sort of shadow image intensity where you see the colour blotches. If you see the blotches in this frame, it must be inherent to the sensor or firmware, not am optical reflection - because why would a flat, uniform illumination of the entire sensor cause reflections which create blotches only in certain scattered groups of pixels?

Max, I recommend that you try that test.
 

MaxKißler

New member
Thanks for your replies ondebanks and Sergei. Sadly I don't have the same light conditions here in Berlin as when I came to that "reflections-conclusion". Most of the time it's cloudy and there's not enough light to cause such reflections at all.

However, I realized that it must have something to do with those reflections mentioned above when I tried to shoot in comparable light conditions. I stood app. 12ft away from the four windows of my living room and did some shots. The foreground was about 4 stops underexposed and when I pulled shadows, I had purple areas in the exact shape of my windows in the dark areas. I don't think this is coincidence.

IMO there is an explanation why other backs utilizing the same Dalsa sensor don't show these areas:
They don't have a red filter in front of the sensor.
They have more than 12 bpc color information (which might be enough to realize that a certain area is not red but that's just guessing).

ondebanks,

may I ask what kind of system do you use? Maybe your lenses don't tend to show "lens flare" (due to better coating?).
 

ondebanks

Member
I had purple areas in the exact shape of my windows in the dark areas. I don't think this is coincidence.
Hi Max,

That is very interesting! This is the first time I have seen it stated so definitively that the purple blotches match the highlight distribution in the scene. Well, there goes my theory.

IMO there is an explanation why other backs utilizing the same Dalsa sensor don't show these areas:
They don't have a red filter in front of the sensor.
They have more than 12 bpc color information (which might be enough to realize that a certain area is not red but that's just guessing).
Well, they all use fairly similar IR rejection filters. They would have to, in order to get the same kind of colour response from the sensor. However, some interference filters can lead to more ghosting/reflections than others. See e.g. this Astrodon article

Trust me, the 12 bits is a red herring. There are loads of 12 bit systems (MFDB + DSLR) and they don't have the same purple blotches problem.

ondebanks,

may I ask what kind of system do you use? Maybe your lenses don't tend to show "lens flare" (due to better coating?).
Other than the different digital back, I use essentially the same system as you - Mamiya 645 AFD with a variety of Mamiya 645 lenses (AF and mostly MF).
 

fotografz

Well-known member
Well, something is amiss ... even the oldest DB don't do this ... old, uncoated lenses or not ... 12 bit or 16 bit.

What software are you using and have you investigated the firmware version in the back?

I recall seeing some odd behavior similar to this from a brand spanking new H4D/60 ... and it turned out the owner was using the wrong firmware for the software version. Instant fix by upgrading to the correct firmware.

That would be the first place I'd look if nothing more than to eliminate it as the source of the problem.

One other area to investigate is the power source. The most odd things can happen with any of these DBs, old or new, if the power has any issues at all. These backs are pushing tons of data around and if there's a defect in the battery or power connections it'll show up in all kinds of ways. I had a poor feed from a FW800 cord and it had a bizarre effect on a few images ... new cord, no problems.

-Marc
 

SergeiR

New member
Its a flare-like effect. Look - its always going around your center.

You wouldnt happen to have some protective filter on the lens, would you? :)
 

Bob

Administrator
Staff member
Are these purple blobs always displaced below (above looking at the sensor face) the bright area?
If so, I will go out on a limb and guess that this may be an a/d converter power supply recovery issue or system noise on vRef. I would assume a bad capacitor or disconnected capacitor or similiar issue.
In any case it suggests a hardware failure.
-bob
 

dougpeterson

Workshop Member
The only way to check the firmware version is via a software called "Mamiya Remote Capture". At least that's what I read on pebbleplace.com. I haven't got that software yet. Maybe it's also possible to check via C1.

Actually I don't tend to underexpose so badly nor do I shoot so many contra-light scenes.

Anyway: Please take a look at this!

View attachment 37977View attachment 37978

View attachment 37979View attachment 37980
Its a flare-like effect. Look - its always going around your center.

You wouldnt happen to have some protective filter on the lens, would you? :)
Are these purple blobs always displaced below (above looking at the sensor face) the bright area?
If so, I will go out on a limb and guess that this may be an a/d converter power supply recovery issue or system noise on vRef. I would assume a bad capacitor or disconnected capacitor or similiar issue.
In any case it suggests a hardware failure.
-bob
The situation is flare like but as Bob has no doubt commented based on - the shape is far too rigid to the subject highlight to be optical flare. Check out the shape of the purple freak-out-area under the light fixture - it's almost perfectly displaced.
 

ondebanks

Member
The only way to check the firmware version is via a software called "Mamiya Remote Capture". At least that's what I read on pebbleplace.com. I haven't got that software yet. Maybe it's also possible to check via C1.

Actually I don't tend to underexpose so badly nor do I shoot so many contra-light scenes.

Anyway: Please take a look at this!

View attachment 37977View attachment 37978

View attachment 37979View attachment 37980
Based on your latest photos, the case for an internal reflection is strong alright! There are 5 surfaces in close proximity (sensor surface; front and back of sensor coverglass; front and back of IR rejection filter) so it could be between any two of these.

Another possibility I was thinking of was CTE (charge transfer efficiency) problems in the sensor, leaving a trail of charges behind during readout which form a weak residual image; but I can't explain why CTE would be colour dependent, so the reflection explanation is the more probable one.
 
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