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Interesting MF digital article over at LuLa from Mark Dubovoy

fotografz

Well-known member
What's "homerism?" ..... Mmmm, donuts!

Boosterism is easy to sniff out regardless of one's apparent enthusiasm for their photographic choices ... it's when one justifies their decisions by crapping on other people's decisions, backed up by a shady opinion stated it terms of scientific fact. Starting the article with a caveat doesn't absolve the writer of some sense that others are NOT dolts for the choices they made, as implied.


As if everyone else is inferior to the writer if they didn't make the same choices. Boosterism is boosting one's self-worth on the shoulders of other lesser beings. Just state your love and enthusiasm for the work you do, and why the gear choices help you do it. Enough said.


So, it did read like boosterism to me with a bunch of boring, over-used bromides peppered in to get heads nodding in agreement ... all punctuated by a phalanx of perfectly executed, uninspired derivative images.


Perhaps Mr. Dubovoy would do better without any of that gear, or writing about it, and expand his creative horizons to actually create something rather than mimicking it with perfect tools? Obviously, we could all benefit from such thinking, but then we all aren't implying we're God's gift either.


Personally, I'd rather look at a thought provoking image my friend Irakly shot with a P&S than one of his antiseptic shots done with a $50,000 rig. So, that bromide, while boringly repetitive, is true ... the gear doesn't make the photographer, and better gear doesn't change that.


He has his opinion, I have mine ... and that is it in a nutshell ... like it or not.

-Marc

Oh, BTW, I have an S2 ... so it's not a case of "gear offense". In fact he makes me want to send it back :ROTFL:
 

D&A

Well-known member
What's "homerism?" ..... Mmmm, donuts!

Boosterism is easy to sniff out regardless of one's apparent enthusiasm for their photographic choices ... it's when one justifies their decisions by crapping on other people's decisions, backed up by a shady opinion stated it terms of scientific fact. Starting the article with a caveat doesn't absolve the writer of some sense that others are NOT dolts for the choices they made, as implied.


As if everyone else is inferior to the writer if they didn't make the same choices. Boosterism is boosting one's self-worth on the shoulders of other lesser beings. Just state your love and enthusiasm for the work you do, and why the gear choices help you do it. Enough said.


So, it did read like boosterism to me with a bunch of boring, over-used bromides peppered in to get heads nodding in agreement ... all punctuated by a phalanx of perfectly executed, uninspired derivative images.


Perhaps Mr. Dubovoy would do better without any of that gear, or writing about it, and expand his creative horizons to actually create something rather than mimicking it with perfect tools? Obviously, we could all benefit from such thinking, but then we all aren't implying we're God's gift either.


Personally, I'd rather look at a thought provoking image my friend Irakly shot with a P&S than one of his antiseptic shots done with a $50,000 rig. So, that bromide, while boringly repetitive, is true ... the gear doesn't make the photographer, and better gear doesn't change that.


He has his opinion, I have mine ... and that is it in a nutshell ... like it or not.

-Marc

Oh, BTW, I have an S2 ... so it's not a case of "gear offense". In fact he makes me want to send it back :ROTFL:
Hi Marc,

I just returned to a regular computer from my previous posting (in another thread using my cell phone) and in the interviening time read the article and formulated my thoughts. They happen to exactly cooincide with yours Marc. You not only beat me to it but expressed it better than I could have. So I won't repeat what you wrote about the article and the author's stated impressions except to say I too would rather see the thought provoking, creative images of a photographer like Irakly than any image eminating from a photograher with the attitude expressed by that author. According to him I should feel like a peon for even considering the equipment I use (and the resulting images) and while I'm at it, should thumb my nose up at those that choose everyday P&S cameras for their images, regardless of the reasons they do so.

Nothing wrong with using equipment that fulfills ones own requirements, but respect those for choosing theirs, even though it may not be up to ones own personal standards. At the very least simply explain what advantages the equipment you choose to use has for your own vision and work, and educate those who may not be fully aware of these advantages. Even calling it Boosterism is being generous in my opinion and I'm not personally attacking the author as an indivudal, since I don't know him, but simply the views he stated in his article. Yes starting his article with a warning that some won't like or approve what he's about to say, is simply self-seving in my opinion. I hope he's open enough to appreciate and understand some of the criticisms that some have or may state, for I have little doubt that he knows his stuff and I'm sure he's fine and capable photographer.

Dave (D&A)
 
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T

tetsrfun

Guest
Oh, BTW, I have an S2 ... so it's not a case of "gear offense". In fact he makes me want to send it back
****
I sure missed that gear addition, when did you sneak that through the "back door"??? :>)

Steve
 

fotografz

Well-known member
Oh, BTW, I have an S2 ... so it's not a case of "gear offense". In fact he makes me want to send it back
****
I sure missed that gear addition, when did you sneak that through the "back door"??? :>)

Steve
It ain't over till it's over Steve. :thumbup::thumbdown::thumbup::thumbdown::thumbs:

I'm testing the crap out of it, and if it meets my needs, I'll steal money from my own future to pay for it ... who needs a wheel chair in old age when you can just as easily crawl everywhere?

:)-Marc
 
T

tetsrfun

Guest
It ain't over till it's over Steve. :thumbup::thumbdown::thumbup::thumbdown::thumbs:

I'm testing the crap out of it, and if it meets my needs, I'll steal money from my own future to pay for it ... who needs a wheel chair in old age when you can just as easily crawl everywhere?

:)-Marc
That is the "fun" of being retired. It's an ongoing multi-factorial analysis of the declining cash on hand curve vs. expected longevity. The ideal is to have the check to the undertaker bounce.

Steve
 

D&A

Well-known member
That is the "fun" of being retired. It's an ongoing multi-factorial analysis of the declining cash on hand curve vs. expected longevity. The ideal is to have the check to the undertaker bounce.

Steve

...and I suppose Steve to also have one of the most capable digital cameras like the S2 in those golden years....so that at the very least, have the ability to document the often seen mistreatment and lack of respect the elderly often are often subjected to. As was pointed out in the article, no lowly 35mm DSLR would suffice for such a task. :)

Serious though Marc, I've been reading with great interest, your thoughts and assessments of the S2. I'm not sure when or if, longer focal length lenses will become available, since I suppose 3rd party lenses with adapters loose AF? For what I often shoot, longer focal length lenses that AF on the S2, would almost certainly be a requirement if it's to sustitute for my use of full frame 35mm DSLR's....although I've been attempting to limited AF recently in some of the difficult work, to determine if I can get along without it for the time being and still nail the shots required. Sure there were the days before AF (my generation) and one got the shots, but today the expectations are much higher (client wise), not only for the shot, but a greater variety of them.

Dave (D&A)
 
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GrahamWelland

Subscriber & Workshop Member
the longest? Misalignment is more critical on short lenses... AFAIK.

?
Alpa shimming - hey I'm just telling you what the folks at Optech's did with mine. Send in the longest lens so that they can calibrate with 'infinity' - remember, they calibrate the back/back plate not the lens. It is assumed that all the lenses from Alpa are already calibrated with their mounts and the body & spacers likewise.
 

PeterA

Well-known member
Shimming the Alpa for a specific digital back is a painful experience - but just like learning to sharpen and hone your own chisels or setting a hand saw properly it is a good idea if you want to get the very best out of your back /Alpa /lens combo.

Landscape dudes need the highest resolution and best DR they can get their hands on. Anyone else is overkilling with more than 30 megs.

Just one persons view.
 

fotografz

Well-known member
Shimming the Alpa for a specific digital back is a painful experience - but just like learning to sharpen and hone your own chisels or setting a hand saw properly it is a good idea if you want to get the very best out of your back /Alpa /lens combo.

Landscape dudes need the highest resolution and best DR they can get their hands on. Anyone else is overkilling with more than 30 megs.

Just one persons view.
I'd add a lot of advertising work to that over 30 meg list ... and architectural work ... and museum documentarians ... and fashion shooters depending on final output (fabrics) ... and those that crop or process heavily like me with my despicable Art Director habits ;)

-Marc
 

fotografz

Well-known member
...and I suppose Steve to also have one of the most capable digital cameras like the S2 in those golden years....so that at the very least, have the ability to document the often seen mistreatment and lack of respect the elderly often are often subjected to. As was pointed out in the article, no lowly 35mm DSLR would suffice for such a task. :)

Serious though Marc, I've been reading with great interest, your thoughts and assessments of the S2. I'm not sure when or if, longer focal length lenses will become available, since I suppose 3rd party lenses with adapters loose AF? For what I often shoot, longer focal length lenses that AF on the S2, would almost certainly be a requirement if it's to sustitute for my use of full frame 35mm DSLR's....although I've been attempting to limited AF recently in some of the difficult work, to determine if I can get along without it for the time being and still nail the shots required. Sure there were the days before AF (my generation) and one got the shots, but today the expectations are much higher (client wise), not only for the shot, but a greater variety of them.

Dave (D&A)
In the meantime, an 1.4X APO Extender (or 1.7X like my HC extender) would help provide a longer 250/4.9 reach, with the same close focusing distance.

Actually, I rarely use more than 180mm on a sensor this size. Remember you can crop in quite a bit, and still be as large as any current FF 35mm DSLR ;)

-Marc
 

D&A

Well-known member
In the meantime, an 1.4X APO Extender (or 1.7X like my HC extender) would help provide a longer 250/4.9 reach, with the same close focusing distance.

Actually, I rarely use more than 180mm on a sensor this size. Remember you can crop in quite a bit, and still be as large as any current FF 35mm DSLR ;)

-Marc
Thanks Marc! I'm not sure Leica itself is going to go the route of having long lenses (modules and such) for the S2 as they did with the R system. I believe its not the market they're focusing on, or at least not in their plans for the near future. As you pointed out, teleconverters will address some of my needs as will cropping.....although with cropping, it then starts heading back (to a degree) to a full frame DSLR (which has it's longer lenses) and therefore can keep its image full frame. I'm not negating the other advantages of image characteristics of the S2 even if the full frame is sometimes not used. These longer lens issues, along with the ability to retain AF with their use, keeps me on the precipice. The scales keep tipping back and forth as I weigh the pros and cons of jumping in, at least at this juncture.

Dave (D&A)
 
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Wayne Fox

Workshop Member
the longest? Misalignment is more critical on short lenses... AFAIK.

?
In theory, once the back is calibrated at infinity for one lens it will be more accurate for all. This is actually very hard to do with a short lens, and almost impossible with some short lenses because they are designed to focus past infinity. Since most focus technical cameras by measuring and setting the lens, long lenses will actually be more critical for anything other than shots at infinity because they have less depth of field.

In the video they use a 70mm lens and stress that the objects being shot to be tested are at least 20 times the focal length of the lens. I used some towers and cabling on a building to a couple of miles away, and ended up adding .03mm (i think). The difference before and after was readily apparent. Overall it took me about 45 minutes to go through the process.
 

PeterA

Well-known member
I'd add a lot of advertising work to that over 30 meg list ... and architectural work ... and museum documentarians ... and fashion shooters depending on final output (fabrics) ... and those that crop or process heavily like me with my despicable Art Director habits ;)

-Marc
Marc - I am watching the 'painful' gyrations you are going through with the S2 decision and note that it has 'only' a puny 40 megapixels..:toocool:

IF I wasnt fully kitted in Hasselblad H and V and Sinar and Rollie etc..
THEN
the easiest decision (for me) would be a three camera system kit which would comprise of

1. M9+M8 - no change all there
2. Alpa 12WA and the new 12STC - with 24 and 35 Schneiders + a digi back ( no change - have to order the new 12STC )
3. The S2 - ( do I add to my systems or do I switch?)

now that leica have (finally) produced an adaptor which can use my Ziess lenses - the S2 is the DSLR on steriods that wins in ergonomics and delivers enough megapixels to keep me happy.

I have no doubt whatsoever that you will buy an S2 and I hope you use it in good health and always look forward to your work and views
ME? I am still stuck staring at Bloomberg screens inching closer to a retirement from managing other peoples money - to one where I just focus on my own..not enough TIME to do the fun stuff..
S2?
I will pick one up one day - no doubt wether it is this year or next ..that is all about me getting bored with my new milling machine and lathe...

as for the LL - I thik we both stopped reading stuff liek that many years ago.
 

Jonathon Delacour

Subscriber Member
From a post on Lloyd Chambers' blog titled Leica S2 focusing fact and fiction:
Even knowledgeable users can be mistaken. Below is a quote from Mark Dubovoy over on LuminousLandscape.com in which he states that S2 focusing is “deadly accurate”, something I’ve disproved repeatedly and at-will with two S2 bodies on three occasions with all four Leica S lenses.
It appears to me from the many hundreds of images I have shot so far, that the focusing in the S2 system is deadly accurate. Much better than the other MF systems. I wonder if this is the only SLR system on the market that has tight enough mechanical and electronic tolerances to actually guarantee pretty much perfect focus at the sensor. — Mark Dubovoy
Autofocus on the S2 might be better than some medium format systems, but it’s also subject to severe backfocus issues at medium and distant focus.

On Dec 14 (a week ago), I repeated Leica S2 focusing problems at will with image after image side-by-side with a Leica USA representative; those images are now in Germany, with my fervent hope that Leica will nail down the issue, since eventually I’d love to own the S2, which has the best lenses of any camera I’ve used, of any format.

I dislike reading erroneous statements in print about a camera system that will cost users at least $28K to acquire, so I felt it mandatory to point out this error. Mr. Dubovoy is welcome to contact me, and since he’s local, I’ll go shoot his S2 with him and demonstrate the issue. Or be delighted if he has the magic S2 body that focuses perfectly, then wonder how one would obtain such a flawless body, allowing for the chance that there could be body-specific issues that happened to affect both bodies I tested, but not his.
When one compares them to the rigorous testing methodology that Lloyd Chambers employs, the "reviews" published by Luminous Landscape can best be described as laughable.
 

fotografz

Well-known member
Thanks Marc! I'm not sure Leica itself is going to go the route of having long lenses (modules and such) for the S2 as they did with the R system. I believe its not the market they're focusing on, or at least not in their plans for the near future. As you pointed out, teleconverters will address some of my needs as will cropping.....although with cropping, it then starts heading back (to a degree) to a full frame DSLR (which has it's longer lenses) and therefore can keep its image full frame. I'm not negating the other advantages of image characteristics of the S2 even if the full frame is sometimes not used. These longer lens issues, along with the ability to retain AF with their use, keeps me on the precipice. The scales keep tipping back and forth as I weigh the pros and cons of jumping in, at least at this juncture.

Dave (D&A)
Yeah, really long, fast aperture AF lenses are the domain of the 35mm DSLRs for sure, I've max'ed out at 300mm on the H system and 350/4 on the Contax 645 before that. The HC300/4.5 takes the 1.7X teleconverter for a 510/7.6, but you lose AF. I don't use long glass much ... 180mm is about all I ever need even on a MFD.

-Marc
 
A

aweitz

Guest
I've been going back and forth between Alpa max and Arca rmd3. The rmd looks like a fine camera but how does it address the sensor/shimming problem? The Arca super fine helicoid does not compensate for lack of shimming the sensor. Yet it's hard to believe that as well thought out as the rm camera is, that this remains a problem. It seems that the Alpa people got it right from the beginning. Why have Acra missed the boat? Or did they? Am I missing something?

Anders
 

Terry

New member
I've been going back and forth between Alpa max and Arca rmd3. The rmd looks like a fine camera but how does it address the sensor/shimming problem? The Arca super fine helicoid does not compensate for lack of shimming the sensor. Yet it's hard to believe that as well thought out as the rm camera is, that this remains a problem. It seems that the Alpa people got it right from the beginning. Why have Acra missed the boat? Or did they? Am I missing something?

Anders
Without going into every bit of detail, you can calibrate the Arca yourself by going through a process similar to what was posted about how they shim the Alpa. From the calibration process you will figure out how much you need to move the focus helicoid (from the precise measured distance) to get good focus. This "correction" can be dialed in each time you focus with any lens.
 
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