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Once again I've fallen at the last hurdle - no MF for me!

fotografz

Well-known member
Thanks for posting Jono.
I am indeed having some similar discussion with myself - not about entering MF but to either add a Pentax 645D or not to and either to keep the Hy6 or not.
I shot some images with my Hy6 which I like a lot, (this includes how the sensor draws but probably also how the Rollei lenses draw.)

However I dont use it as much as I had planned. Why? its big and heavy, and its slow to photograph with, it is much more room for falure (slightly wrong focus, exp metering off, image review in camera doesnt tell that much etc., not much room for available light photography caused by shallower DOF in combination with limited high ISO, AF not capable for anythingmoving fast)
The workflow takes much more time.
One other thing is that for some reason I still feel somewhat uncompfortable in some case when I bring such equipment, because it jsut draws more attention and questions "how much does that camera cost"/ is it so much better than other cameras etc. I dont like such discussions.

I think it also has to do with time - I am not pro and I do run a business + have a jung growing family + some other hobbies as well like paragliding for example. So time is clearly a limited ressource, as is room and weight when I am ouside with kids.

I still think a S2 or a 645d would work somewhat better than my Hy6 for those times, but still not really small and why I would gain some IQ from the sensor I would loose some abilities regarding AF (shooting moving kid/ sports etc.) and low light.

Comparing the size weight of an S2 or 645d to a DSLR isnt really fair - because you have to see the whole packageincluding lens, now compare a 50/1.4 or 105/2.0 Nikon/Zeiss lens with a Leica 75/2.5 or 180mm S2 lens.
(The Pentax seems more compact in this area)

If I was only shooting landscape finarts I would not question MF for my purpose.
And one can allways own 2 o3 even 3 systems for different application. But then which one do you bring - I often dont go out to just and only shoot landscape, I want to do various things and be flexible.

What I dont get is why we do not see MF-like sensors in DSLRs. The DMR showed what is possible. I am still hoping for something like that. Would be perfect for my taste. A S2-petit like camera with 24x35 sensor which takes Leica R-AF lenses (just take the same optics from old R lenses and add AF).

But then you sometimes look at those MF images and are just blown away...
Interesting comparison to my own experiences. I shoot in crowds of people all the time ... events, weddings and corporate work places ... and walk-abouts in major cities. I've only had a few incidences where someone asked me about my camera ... usually other photographers.

One girl on roller skates in NYC did a 180 to ask me about the Hassey XPan I was shooting with, she was a photo student (I didn't mind as she was cute ;)). One person in NYC asked if my brand new Leica MP3 LHSA with new retro looking 50/1.4 ASPH was an antique camera :ROTFL: And one person in Santa Monica asked about the 503CW with CFV Back because they were unaware that those cameras were digital.

At weddings, any curiosity was almost always generated by Canon shooting Uncle Bobs who asked how many megs my Canon DSLR was (penis envy at work :eek:) ... no one has ever asked about the H camera, not even once. I think it signals that you are a professional and don't need to be interrupted any more than one would interrupt a construction worker to ask an opinion of his hammer :ROTFL:

Weight size comparisons have to take into account bulk and configurations. One of the attractions of the S2 for me was that the 35mm DSLR like configuration of the body fits smaller bags than my H camera requires. Also, the S lenses, while not necessarily less weight, are currently all a similiar diameter. So, while my HC28 or HC35 are quite fat at the end (95mm filter size, plus the hood in reverse adds more) and do not fit the pockets of my Think-Tank Lens changing bag, the Leica S35mm does fit. Basically, I can grab the camera with the 70, and have the 35 and 180 in my lens bag for fast mobile shooting.

Also, the S2 is much more quiet compared to MFDs ... quieter than my Contax 645 with it's gliding mirror, and a nicer sound than any DSLR I've used to date.

All this doesn't mean it's right for someone else. I'm just sharing comparative experiences as a shooter and user of most formats in a lot of shooting conditions.

-Marc
 

Geoff

Well-known member
Thanks for posting Jono.
I am indeed having some similar discussion with myself - not about entering MF but to either add a Pentax 645D or not to and either to keep the Hy6 or not.
I shot some images with my Hy6 which I like a lot, (this includes how the sensor draws but probably also how the Rollei lenses draw.)

However I dont use it as much as I had planned. Why? its big and heavy, and its slow to photograph with, it is much more room for falure (slightly wrong focus, exp metering off, image review in camera doesnt tell that much etc., not much room for available light photography caused by shallower DOF in combination with limited high ISO, AF not capable for anythingmoving fast)
The workflow takes much more time.
One other thing is that for some reason I still feel somewhat uncompfortable in some case when I bring such equipment, because it jsut draws more attention and questions "how much does that camera cost"/ is it so much better than other cameras etc. I dont like such discussions....

I think it also has to do with time - I am not pro and I do run a business + have a jung growing family + some other hobbies as well like paragliding for example. So time is clearly a limited ressource, as is room and weight when I am ouside with kids.

I still think a S2 or a 645d would work somewhat better than my Hy6 for those times, but still not really small and why I would gain some IQ from the sensor I would loose some abilities regarding AF (shooting moving kid/ sports etc.) and low light.

Comparing the size weight of an S2 or 645d to a DSLR isnt really fair - because you have to see the whole packageincluding lens, now compare a 50/1.4 or 105/2.0 Nikon/Zeiss lens with a Leica 75/2.5 or 180mm S2 lens.
(The Pentax seems more compact in this area)

If I was only shooting landscape finarts I would not question MF for my purpose.
And one can allways own 2 o3 even 3 systems for different application. But then which one do you bring - I often dont go out to just and only shoot landscape, I want to do various things and be flexible.

What I dont get is why we do not see MF-like sensors in DSLRs. The DMR showed what is possible. I am still hoping for something like that. Would be perfect for my taste. A S2-petit like camera with 24x35 sensor which takes Leica R-AF lenses (just take the same optics from old R lenses and add AF).

But then you sometimes look at those MF images and are just blown away...
Valid points, and shared as well. I love the Hy6 and its capabilities (which are vast) and the quality of good lenses. But it isn't a lightweight, and can be a bit slow to use (AF lenses help a lot). I've found it to be functionally fine, but its not a "carry everywhere" kind of camera.

If one goes back to MF film cameras for a moment, they promised a slightly slower technique, and higher quality for the extra care. They were still portable and fairly easy to use. It turns out that morphing those cameras into their high quality digital equivalents isn't easy at all - the AFD and S2 are as close to that as one can get. Some would add the H series.... but everything grows bigger, heavier, etc. Of course the quality goes off the charts as well. IMHO, MFDB are really more akin to portable 4x5 field cameras, and are not a replacement for their older film-based brethren.

The Hy6 is an amazing system and does many things very well, but taking it with a couple of lenses on a family trip just doesn't quite work ... an S2 (light, compact, etc.) is something to behold (with budget to match). But the problem still exists: shots taken with MF gear hold the eye with a higher degree of keepers. Just wish it were smaller....kind of like a TLR with a back, or even an improved DMR - to take all that lovely R glass.
 
Hi Jono,

You are being way too practical in your decision. Sometimes you gotta just say heck with it and get what you want and see where it takes you. In my opinion, you shouldn't consider the total cost of the S2 in making your decision. You should only consider the net cost if you buy into the S2 and decide later that it isn't for you and sell it. This net cost is probably only $2k or $3k if you buy new and maybe nothing if you get a better than list price deal or demo S2. When you consider that you are only risking ~$3k instead of $30k then the pratical side of the decision process changes considerably. In my opinion that is a small monetary risk to explore a creative passion you have been considering for a while. Plus, if you like the S2 as much as I expect you would, then there is no risk at all.

Note: I pose this viewpoint only because you indicated you were in the financial position to afford the S2.
 

djonesii

Workshop Member
Jono;

Its a very slippery slope ......... glad you not thinking about mamiya, a gateway drug if there ever was such a thing!

Dave
 

KeithL

Well-known member
Jono, unless you intend to change what you shoot and how and where you shoot it I can see little reason for change.

FWIW, and looking at your work, I would have thought the Leica M9 would be the perfect camera.
 

MGrayson

Subscriber and Workshop Member
This is all so sad! How to justify a Pentax 645D when good photographers are rejecting the S2?:eek:

I am in a very pretty tropical spot this week. Yesterday the sun broke through the severe overcast for a moment in the late afternoon. Was the Canon/Zeiss with me to capture the golden light on the sand and trees against a stormy sky? Oh no. Only an iPhone. :cry:

Between that and Jono's rationality, I'm tempted to toss all this equipment into the waves.

Who am I kidding....;)

Matt
 

Godfrey

Well-known member
... One or two of you will have been amused over the years at my anguish over whether or not to go Medium format. ...
Anguish. ANGUISH?? Severe emotional pain and suffering... ?? Sheesh.

It's a *camera*, Jono. Nothing more, nothing less. A page-long rationalization for NOT buying a hyper expensive camera that you don't need seems a mite over the top.

Bah, humbug! ]'-)
 

dmpbyrdwatcher

New member
Jono,

You have completely ignored the most important reason of all to get the S2 and I can't be more disappointed in you.

There are thousands of people all around the world just like me who live our own wishful gear junkie lives vicariously through you - and have been doing so for years. I've been waiting so long for you to get to this point - I so desperately want to experience the process of buying and learning to use an S2 system. I ache for those moments of doubt, moments of despair and moments of triumph - and you've unilaterally decided to withhold all that from me? And everyone else similarly situated around the world?

It is a sad day indeed. How selfish of you!
:angel::angel::angel:


Doreen
 

Terry

New member
Anguish. ANGUISH?? Severe emotional pain and suffering... ?? Sheesh.

It's a *camera*, Jono. Nothing more, nothing less. A page-long rationalization for NOT buying a hyper expensive camera that you don't need seems a mite over the top.

Bah, humbug! ]'-)
I think it is safe to say the Jono gets deep satisfaction from his photography. I find his understanding of light in landscapes and still lifes to be exquisite. I can fully understand his angst about balancing technical image quality vs. having gear that will change the way he shoots or his ability to simply capture what he sees. So, yes I can see that it is a hard decision and yes I am interested in his decision making process even if it takes two pages to articulate.....and yes I do think your answer falls into the category of bah, humbug....didn't you just post a fair amount on how you decided to buy the E5?
 

Ben Rubinstein

Active member
Jono,

You have completely ignored the most important reason of all to get the S2 and I can't be more disappointed in you.

There are thousands of people all around the world just like me who live our own wishful gear junkie lives vicariously through you - and have been doing so for years. I've been waiting so long for you to get to this point - I so desperately want to experience the process of buying and learning to use an S2 system. I ache for those moments of doubt, moments of despair and moments of triumph - and you've unilaterally decided to withhold all that from me? And everyone else similarly situated around the world?

It is a sad day indeed. How selfish of you!
:angel::angel::angel:


Doreen
They should take this post and frame it as the pure essence of GetDPI :ROTFL::ROTFL::ROTFL:
 

GMB

Active member
I wouldn't have bothered to post this, but I know there are several others who are having the same internal dialogue, and there is such a deluge of articles like Mark Dubovoy, I thought my simple decision might at least help someone else to think hard about it.

Exactly and thanks for posting your thoughts.

For me the question is not whether it would make my photography any better--I have given up on that idea :bugeyes:--but rather whether I would have the time to put it too use. I am also still hesitating between the S2, which indeed is a charme to use even by someone like me, or going more radical with a Phase of Leave back and a tech camera with a few lenses to produce the landscape images I am dreaming of… But then I am afraid I would never carry that gear with me. And a stitched multiple shot with the S2 should get you very far indeed as far as print size is concerned.
 

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
Jono,

You have completely ignored the most important reason of all to get the S2 and I can't be more disappointed in you.

There are thousands of people all around the world just like me who live our own wishful gear junkie lives vicariously through you - and have been doing so for years. I've been waiting so long for you to get to this point - I so desperately want to experience the process of buying and learning to use an S2 system. I ache for those moments of doubt, moments of despair and moments of triumph - and you've unilaterally decided to withhold all that from me? And everyone else similarly situated around the world?

It is a sad day indeed. How selfish of you!
:angel::angel::angel:




Doreen

I need to use this with my wife . can I quote you :ROTFL::ROTFL::ROTFL:
 

Bob

Administrator
Staff member
If Jono has let us down, Guy will you rush in to fill the breach?
:ROTFL::ROTFL::ROTFL::ROTFL::ROTFL:
 

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
Sure just ship one over. have my big helmet on and hid the baseball bats. Oh and took the car keys away.

Jono your depressing us you need just to man up dude. LOL

Just say the word I'll call Leica for ya and have it delivered right to your door. LOL
Funny thing is I can.
 

Bob

Administrator
Staff member
Sure just ship one over. have my big helmet on and hid the baseball bats. Oh and took the car keys away.

Jono your depressing us you need just to man up dude. LOL

Just say the word I'll call Leica for ya and have it delivered right to your door. LOL
Funny thing is I can.
I am sure that Jono won't mind as long as you wire the cash from one or your numbered accounts.
-bob
 

Bob

Administrator
Staff member
Bob it's really confusing not sure if it is in the Swiss banks or the Cayman Island accounts.:D
That is why they invented post-it-notes so you can write down the numbers, pins, balances and your passwords for storage on a nice secure place like your monitor bezel LOL
-bob
 
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