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Once again I've fallen at the last hurdle - no MF for me!

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
That is the thing we all go through this process which i think is fabulous people do. Nothing worse than the oh i made a mistake or did not count on this or that. I agree the Sony is handy dandy and reason I have one too , so that throws a wrench in the pile for sure.
 

fotografz

Well-known member
Marc
wait did you recently get an S2 or is this from your time testing it out?
Thanks
am
It's a new S2P, 35, 70 and 180 lens, SF58 flash and a spare battery. I'm running it through it's tests, and it is like night and day compared to my first S2 testing from a year ago.

Wife is screaming to get going to the party ... :ROTFL:

(Taking the M9 and Noctilux 0.95 ;))

-Marc
 

Diane B

New member
They should take this post and frame it as the pure essence of GetDPI :ROTFL::ROTFL::ROTFL:
After reading the above post (well, the one Ben made reference to above) I decided I might have to reconsider my 'good for you, Jono' made in another thread. :ROTFL: :ROTFL: :ROTFL:

Diane
 

jonoslack

Active member
Jono,

You have completely ignored the most important reason of all to get the S2 and I can't be more disappointed in you.

There are thousands of people all around the world just like me who live our own wishful gear junkie lives vicariously through you - and have been doing so for years. I've been waiting so long for you to get to this point - I so desperately want to experience the process of buying and learning to use an S2 system. I ache for those moments of doubt, moments of despair and moments of triumph - and you've unilaterally decided to withhold all that from me? And everyone else similarly situated around the world?

It is a sad day indeed. How selfish of you!
:angel::angel::angel:

Doreen
Doreen . . . you wicked wicked lady - shame on you!
Being a gentleman :)thumbup:)I might just have to change my mind and buy one, simply on the basis of this post! (that's about $300 per word of your post!).
 

tashley

Subscriber Member
Hi Jono!

I am so with you on this. As you know I had an S2 last year for a couple months and shot a lot of frames but eventually returned it because of a series of problems with both bodies and glass. With the money I got back I upgraded my P45+ to a 65+ and my Phamy body to the latest version, adding a nice leaf shutter portrait lens. The setup produces images of amazing quality once you've learned how to use it, and never more so when the back is used on a tech camera with decent glass.

However.... I don't use it very much. My work this last year has fallen into a rhythm of selling fine art prints at much higher prices than I used to, and to a much more educated kind of buyer, and not one of them has ever asked me the slightest hint of a technical question further than 'how do you get them to look so painterly?' (answer: it's the way I print 'em!) - but not one question, ever, about cameras, formats, lenses, whatever.

My new home has a nice long corridor that I have put gallery lighting in, and I treated myself to hanging a set of my six favourite (and mostly best selling) shots, beautifully framed. They are printed to a tad larger than 21 x 14 because of nothing other than that that is how they look right. It's not a size that would test most cameras, especially when printed on the paper I use, which is a little dreamy and romantic. But nonetheless, of those six shots, one was from a 5D mk 1, two from a 5d mk2, two from Leica M and one from a Ricoh GRDII. And three were on zoom lenses, which I claim to dislike.

Were I to drill down further into my collection and print my favourite 50 pictures, the ratio would shift radically in favour of the M8 and M9 but I'd be hard pushed to be sure that any MF shots would creep in. Maybe two or three.

I could expand tediously and for many hours on why this is but in short, the shots that are the most beautiful and intriguing are the ones where something amazing happened between the light and the landscape and I happened to have a camera there. One rarely just 'happens to have' a MF camera there and indeed, when I look through all the amazingly high quality MF landscape work out there, most of it technically well beyond my abilities I'm sure, the great bulk of it lacks that one quality that I personally value. I used to want to capture that perfect shot of a slot canyon or an autumnal maple at maximum resolution. Now I don't. Things have changed. Those are other people's shots, and they have been done endlessly and beautifully in ways that demonstrate the virtuosity of other people's vision and other people's gear. But they are not my shots.

I don't sell the MF gear because there is stuff I want to do for which I will probably need it. As you know, everything I sell is for charity so I can please myself what, where and how I shoot and I very rarely do client work. If I did, my drivers would be different. But as it is, you and I shoot in quite similar ways I think, and I am now relaxed enough not only to repeat the bromide that the 'the best camera is the one you have with you' but finally to believe it. Just like you.

I just don't care any more. I want the shot at that moment of happy union of light and landscape and that happens when it happens, not when I have loaded a car or backpack with the best gear.

There are a million better photographers than me who have very specific client needs to meet and they know what gear best meets those needs just like I know what gear meets mine.

Lastly: I think extreme resolution is often used as a clear distinguishing mark of the real pro. Cityscapes of Asian boomtowns that print ten feet wide but would frankly look extremely dull if taken on a smaller sensor and printed 20 x 30. That sort of thing. The fascination is in the size and the detail, not really in the vision itself. At a recent charity auction in which I had a print, some enormous prints by some truly enormous names failed to sell because, IMHO, though they were big they were also a bit barren. The trick hadn't worked on the punters, who had failed to fall for the 'size=degree of professional credibility' equation. They bought what they wanted, which was pictures that were beautiful or funny or inspiring or shocking or memorable and it really didn't matter who had taken them or on what gear. And a lot of these punters were high profile, highly educated collectors.

So like I say, I just don't care any more. Everything else being equal, I would love for every shot I take to be at 80mp and exhibit technical perfection. But whenever I kit myself out in order to achieve that, nothing happens, and I am not prepared to take a Phase system with me when I take the dog for a walk...

Keep the cash.

Best as ever,
Tim
 

doug

Well-known member
... When I consider something new, I don't necessarily approach it with the worry that it will change what I do, or how I see things, or anything current. That is because I want it to be part of change, not part of improving the status quo. Less like ... "will I stay the same?", but more like ... "Will this be part of (not the reason for) movement into new explorations?"
Very insightful, Marc :salute:

I've had a few of these game-changing purchases over the years, and the new explorations were usually in directions I couldn't have predicted without working with the camera for a while. Sometimes the direction grated on my nerves and that equipment was sold within a year or so - a few fortunate times the new direction resonated with my soul and I call that equipment My Precious :D
 

fotografz

Well-known member
In the end there will be a million anecdotal experiences shared. Then those will change a year later. Things happen for some, and not for others ... then it all does a flip-flop. Change is inevitable one way or the other.

None of it really matters ... either get it or don't. The world will still keep spinning.

-Marc
 

Paratom

Well-known member
.....

I wasn't really expecting this thread to re-open the can of worms, but perhaps it does.

At any rate, I hope the discussion is helpful for others going through the same kind of thought processes.
Jono,
helpful? I dont know ;) interesting-yes, very.

1) I feel the wish to check out an S2 and a 645D and see how much more compact and easy to use they are compared to my Hy6 and other MF solutions

2) There seem to be quite some different opinions regarding IQ of MF vs M9 vs Sony. It is clear to me that MFwins clearly at very large print size. But at medium print size -how big is the difference. One write on LL said he was surprized how good the M9 held up compared to the Phamiya and Pentax 645D. Now quite some people here experienced that MF smokes the A900 and M9.
All I know that I think to see a clear difference often between files from the M9 and Nikon DSLR (and also Pentax K5). I think it has also to do with lenses. The Leica M files have a certain clarity which is hard to beat. Also specially in low light they seem to produce contrast in scenes which justlook mushy. Sometimes the images look better than what I remember to have seen in reality (regarding light).
Looking at MF files the difference is not allways that clear to me. The files from my LV75 do have a certain smoothness and I love the colors. This is not so much about sharpness.
So my optinion of today is that at print size up to 50x70cm the difference might be there but personally I dont feel it that clear. Probably also depends a lot on the subject.
Would be interesting to make a thread posting images from MF and M9 and DSLR without EXIF and then see how many can find out which are MF images.

3) comparing size of the S2 to that of A900 has a lot todo with the choice of lenses. If one is happy with 2 or 3 primes the size difference is maybe not so big. I could imagine to carry a A900 with a standard zoom on a mountain. I am not sure if I wanted to carry a S2 with 3 primes on a mountain.

4) Besides bulk the other question is: how fast are you with gear. Can it catch the moment? Thats why I would like to try a S2 or 64D to see how it really works. With the Hy6 you can catch the moment - if you are lucky ;)

Just soe thoughts.
 

Eoin

Member
jonoslack;273770 ..... I realise that my decision is extremely odd . . . [/QUOTE said:
I don't think so, in fact I think it's quite astute. For non professional (read earns vast majority of income from photography) MF is an overkill IMO. As a keen photographer one is entitled to seek out the best optic/sensor combination that their heart desires. But really at the end of the day, it won't matter if the photo was taken on an iPhone, M9, or S2, if the subject matter and composition are interesting enough.

Jono, no matter what camera you seem to have in your hand, you have the natural ability to produce interesting images. The (Desire :talk028: Need) internal questioning needs to be silenced. Not easy, I know.
 

T.Karma

New member
Jono feels offended that I made a tongue-in-cheek comment regarding his "anguish" over whether to buy a hyper-expensive camera.

I'd have thought that the line "Bah, humbug!" followed by a devilish smiley ...
]'-) ... would indicate that I was kidding him a bit. But Terry seems to be offended as well.

Well, on that basis I offer an apology ... there was no intent to offend.

I do feel rather strongly that all this drama over the notion of buying or not buying a camera is just malarky and totally irrelevant with respect to a pursuit of and love for Photography. .......
Correct.
It is not wrong to spice up the discussion a bit. Me too feels that this is more a luxury problem than anything else. OTOH, camera desires are somewhat innocent desires, so it is more like chlidren discussing if they can afford a bigger matchbox car yet, or if they should save up for the next model. It is all cute and should be fun.
 

jonoslack

Active member
Hi Jono!

So like I say, I just don't care any more. Everything else being equal, I would love for every shot I take to be at 80mp and exhibit technical perfection. But whenever I kit myself out in order to achieve that, nothing happens, and I am not prepared to take a Phase system with me when I take the dog for a walk...

Keep the cash.

Best as ever,
Tim
HI Tim
Thank you for a really excellent post - lots to think about there, and perhaps an S2 is more portable than a Phase system, but still not something one is likely to take with you when walking the dog!.

all the best
 

jonoslack

Active member
HI Everybody
Thanks so much for chipping in - I think the thread has become really quite interesting, plenty of fun, an lots of relevant points as well.
I've had a few interesting and helpful PMs as well.

Of course the 'be a man' posts tend to re-open the question (thank you Marc and Mark Tom and Roger in particular) - with the added attraction of 'growing as a photographer' by adding a new tool - definitely enticing, and almost worthy of making a U turn (almost)

Then there are the 'you don't need anything more' posts (thank you Keith, Eoin). Although they are reinforcing my original post . . . .there is a tendency to think 'Well, maybe I DO need something more' :ROTFL: (me? bloody minded?).

The thread was worth starting for the jokes - Doreen has the post of the month (for me) - and Matt too - sorry to let you both down so badly, Bob always cracks me up.

Helpful stuff as always from Jack and Guy and Terry, from Tim and Marc and Doug too.

Anyway - now I really am rabbiting (sorry Godfrey).

Thanks everyone for joining in - and no Dave - I haven't changed my mind yet:ROTFL:
 

ceh

Active member
Hi Jono!







So like I say, I just don't care any more. Everything else being equal, I would love for every shot I take to be at 80mp and exhibit technical perfection. But whenever I kit myself out in order to achieve that, nothing happens, and I am not prepared to take a Phase system with me when I take the dog for a walk...

Keep the cash.

Best as ever,
Tim
...this is exactly the reason..;):thumbup:
 

D&A

Well-known member
Hi Jono,

You and Tim have it all wrong! You don't carry a camera the size of an S2/lens when you walk the dog, you let the dog do it by putting on one of those dog packs strapped onto him/her. That's what I do with mine except all they are willing to carry is extra biscuits and treats in theirs and will give me a dirty look if I try sneaking in any thing else, even CF cards :)

I truly appreciated both Tim's excellent post with his personal point of view as well as all of your postings too. Even though I often go back and forth with decisions and sometimes agonize over them, life is too short and wonderful to let it becomes anything more than some careful deliberation and then enjoy using what you have now or in the future. Looking at your images, especially those in the last few years with the M9, one can only admire what you have done with it.

Dave (D&A)
 
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ohnri

New member
I just don't care any more. I want the shot at that moment of happy union of light and landscape and that happens when it happens, not when I have loaded a car or backpack with the best gear.

There are a million better photographers than me who have very specific client needs to meet and they know what gear best meets those needs just like I know what gear meets mine.


Best as ever,
Tim
Thank you for one of the best posts I have ever read. And thanks to Jono for starting this fascinating thread.

I, like many others, am constantly wondering if MF would allow me to produce better images. Rarely does a discussion get to this point so well.

Thanks again.

Best,

Bill
 

ceh

Active member
Jono,
Simple - you make better pictures, because you are with "S2" ready for it.:)
 

4season

Well-known member
I'd love to have an S2 or any other modern digital MF outfit, but back in my film days, it was really only the smaller ones which ever worked for me as everyday outfits, the Fuji 6x4.5 and Mamiya 6 rangefinder systems in particular. I liked the 6x9 format a lot (Fuji GSW690 III), but in the darkroom it was just too obvious when I used the camera handheld! I like to think I can handhold a camera really steady, but it wasnt steady enough for the 6x9: It got to where I was nitpicking the really small stuff. The smaller formats simply seemed more forgiving of my more relaxed Monday-Friday shooting.

Then there's the matter of weight: I used to mostly ignore it until I started carrying this stuff around most days of the week!
 

ptomsu

Workshop Member
I've solved the point and shoot problem . . . It's a pentax K5.
I can understand that you envy the hobbyist choices, and of course, the obvious answer is to get an S2, keep the M9 kit and ditch the A900 . . . .but I do weddings, not lots of weddings, but some, and they get paid for . . . .so the dSLR needs to stay, although, the DR and high ISO on the Pentax tempts one to think that could do away with the Sony, and of course the S2 would be wonderful for the times when one used the A900 with the 135 f1.8. . . . and lots is done with the M9 anyway. . . . .

I wasn't really expecting this thread to re-open the can of worms, but perhaps it does.

At any rate, I hope the discussion is helpful for others going through the same kind of thought processes.
I went through a very similar thought process a few months ago - sell all my Hasselblad gear and my Nikon and buy the S2. Two reasons it did not happen:

1) I had the fear that I would miss my D700 and lenses as this is a really fast and versatile DSLR solution and I do need it for some of my photography

2) I could not achieve a reasonable price for my H3D39

So I finally cancelled the project. Having said that, a few weeks later with my experiences from the K5 and Pentax lenses I feel already more comfortable to sell my Nikon and go for Pentax DSLR. This is a much cheaper solution, much lighter and in my eyes (for my type of photography) even more versatile than the Nikon. Maybe the thought process will now start again.

Would be a good combo - S system, Pentax K5 and a future M10 with all my M lenses.

Maybe it would work out this time :)
 
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