The GetDPI Photography Forum

Great to see you here. Join our insightful photographic forum today and start tapping into a huge wealth of photographic knowledge. Completing our simple registration process will allow you to gain access to exclusive content, add your own topics and posts, share your work and connect with other members through your own private inbox! And don’t forget to say hi!

Why did you choose your back?

Rethmeier

New member
Well said Thierry!
And yes folks, I do have a Hy6/75LV and for me it's the kit I wanted.
All manual lenses,for a good price(sort of)I don't need and dislike AF.
I don't even use AF with my Canon.
But,of course this is personal.
I don't shoot kids or moving animals etc.
Have a good night or morning wherever you are.
Cheers,
WR
 

PeterA

Well-known member
Thierry - is English a second language for you? Perhaps if this is the case - then I can forgive your obvious mis-understandings.

Please read carefully what I have typed - and please understand that a person can move from the specific to the general in the same post.

I had a specifically bad experience with a dealer. When I use the word dealer it is a specific person - dealership is what we call the company - dealer is the individual.

Did I not say that there were many nice people in the company? Yes I did.
Did I not say that they tried to help as they could ? Yes I did.
Did I not say that being nice is not enough - that making good is the test? Yes I did.

I really am at a loss as to your carry on.


Why are you selectively quoting me like some second rate sleuth trying to cause mischief.
What is your agenda here?

Similarly - who are you to demand my 'name'?
Who are you to ask me to email you?

As I said to you before - this has nothing to do with an experience regarding Sinar. So why should I email you? The best way to manage these situations - is to never buy or sell from such places again - what is your problem with that?

Judging by the way you have helped people in here who have had problems - clearly you care about getting it right - a pity then that not ALL people who deal in various manufacturer's backs and products have the same attitude.

As for what you term are my 'significant statements' - my personal experiences ARE significant to me. This thread is general about why people choose backs.

MY message was to be careful WHO you deal with and I used an example of what I had to put up with to illustrate a simple truth - which has been repeated by EVERY contributor in here - apart from yourself.

Choose a dealer - or dealership ( see the difference?) that you trust to service you.

What is your problem? YOU are the one who has named names and tried to put words in my mouth.

I stand by everything I say and everything I have said - and if you wish to continue - I will be LESS reserved in my responses. Now go try and bully someone else.

Cheerio
Pete
 
T

thsinar

Guest
Thierry - is English a second language for you? Perhaps if this is the case - then I can forgive your obvious mis-understandings.
Yes it is, it does however not prevent me to understand what is written.

Please read carefully what I have typed - and please understand that a person can move from the specific to the general in the same post.
I do refer to your very first post: that you have somehow "corrected" in the second is clear to me.

I had a specifically bad experience with a dealer. When I use the word dealer it is a specific person - dealership is what we call the company - dealer is the individual.
You DID speak about the company or at least so it can be understood, since "dealer" can be taken both ways: the definition of the word "dealer" seems to be quite clear in my dictionnary at home:

"Dealer": an individual OR company whose business is buying or selling, ...

Moreover: you say now that you spoke about one person, but you have also clearly said the word "they". Which leads me to think you mean all the people there, respectively the company.

Did I not say that there were many nice people in the company? Yes I did.
Did I not say that they tried to help as they could ? Yes I did.
Did I not say that being nice is not enough - that making good is the test? Yes I did.
Not in your very first post and words.

I really am at a loss as to your carry on.

Why are you selectively quoting me like some second rate sleuth trying to cause mischief.
I simply remind, by quoting, that what you have written is a serious accusation. In some countries it could (and would) lead to a law case.

What is your agenda here?
None other than to help, as seriously and as professionally as possible, ALL members with ALL brands, and to correct misleading and wrong information or purposely posted lies or false claims (not speaking about you here), nothing else.

I have explained in my very first post here why I am here and what is my purpose to be: I am here on my own choice, not asked by my employer and not even asking for the permission, free to speak out what I think to be right or not. Nobody has asked me to be here, nor on any other forum. And I have no sales intentions or advantages when some Sinar products are sold. I love photography: is that a reason valid enough?

Similarly - who are you to demand my 'name'?
Who are you to ask me to email you?
Well, I have put a name and a signature under my words, each and any time. I simply do not believe in anonymity when it comes to speak the way you did about somebody or a company. That is my opinion.

You are right, I am noboby, and do not pretend to be someone: life shows me every day that there are ways more important things than being somebody.

I have simply "offered" you, without any pretention, to explain to me what happened, to give me the chance to understand your anger and frustration, to allow me to speak with our distributor and to may be correct something which went really wrong, nothing more.

I do not force you to write to me.

As I said to you before - this has nothing to do with an experience regarding Sinar. So why should I email you? The best way to manage these situations - is to never buy or sell from such places again - what is your problem with that?
You are right here, it has nothing to do with Sinar directly. Nevertheless, it does concern the same company representing the 2 brands, and the 2 brands are harmed the same way.

Judging by the way you have helped people in here who have had problems - clearly you care about getting it right - a pity then that not ALL people who deal in various manufacturer's backs and products have the same attitude.
I am "blind" when it comes to help somebody and don't see the brand or the gear this person is using. So it should and will always be.

As for what you term are my 'significant statements' - my personal experiences ARE significant to me. This thread is general about why people choose backs.
You are right, I cannot and do not wish to contradict this, it's respectable.

MY message was to be careful WHO you deal with and I used an example of what I had to put up with to illustrate a simple truth - which has been repeated by EVERY contributor in here - apart from yourself.
Obviously I do sign under this as well, that one should know the company or the person with which/whom one is dealing and doing business.

Choose a dealer - or dealership ( see the difference?) that you trust to service you.
see above: "dealer" has 2 meanings, either way is right. But now that you have explained yours, I do take it as such.

What is your problem? YOU are the one who has named names and tried to put words in my mouth.
I have no problem other than avoiding misunderstandings and getting things in the right light, as well as understanding both sides.

I stand by everything I say and everything I have said - and if you wish to continue - I will be LESS reserved in my responses. Now go try and bully someone else.

Cheerio
Pete
So do I, standing by all I have said. I do not wish to continue, so we agree to disagree, best thing to do. As for "bully": well, I didn't know that I was an intimidating or mistreating person, nor did anybody ever told me I was, and I do certainly not think that you are a weak person. I have respected your person any time.

Best regards,
Thierry
 

fotografz

Well-known member
Please fotografz,
if this is referring to David K's issues, than you're of the mark.
At the moment there are hundreds of pros shooting with the Hy6/75LV combo with no problems or issues.
Cheers,
Willem.

N.B Nice pics on your post btw!
I think maybe you Sinar folks are getting over defensive. And if hundreds of pros use Sinar is the logic for endorsement, then Phase One is the over-whelming one to choose since more pros use that brand than any other. BTW, there are "Hundreds" of Hy6s on the job already? Where is that statistic?

Guy is a working stiff just like thousands of others. While gear is a hot topic here, it's a small percent of what's on the mind when shooting a job with a deadline and hundreds of details to orchestrate. Not a time you want to be dealing with BS from the gear.

I've had all kinds of issues with all kinds of backs ... so NO, I'm not referencing a specific experience like Guy did, I wasn't there ... he was. But I sympathize with the concept he was conveying ... KISS: keep it simple stupid.

My experiences have been: a Kodak back on a Contax 645 that could not achieve critical focus with a 80 @ f/2 ... Kodak blamed Kyocera, Kyocera blamed Kodak ... their problem became my problem. A H2D/CFH22 that shot straight DNGs that was possessed by the Devil ... Hasselblad gave me a new camera that didn't shoot DNGs and a 3 year hot swap warranty no questions asked; then there were all the various backs that required shims to zero in the focus, or the adapter for my RZ to mount a Kodak Proback that had to be duct-taped on because it liked to unlock and drop the back to the floor if anyone in the room sneezed ... or the Rodenstock 120 APO Macro that simply wasn't sharp ... and no amount of shim rings could make it so ... still waiting for that replacement ... or a slew of Hard Drives from Lacie that won't work with the latest OSX version because the firmware needs updated, and one needs a degree from MIT to figure out their down-load system ... or mondo expensive firewire repeater hubs for tethered shooting to the computer that like to start on fire ... and the cords that are so stiff that they destroy the camera firewire out-port ... I could go on and on ...

So NO, I'm not referencing any one brand or incident.
 
T

thsinar

Guest
Not really Mark, just wishing to get things straight and right, as they were, and not willing to let a wrong impression or false claim stand in the room, in front of the eyes of hundreds of members. Understandable. And as such I shall always intervene.

Thierry

I think maybe you Sinar folks are getting over defensive.
 

Rethmeier

New member
Marc,
I can tell you right now that if Sinar didn't sell hundreds of these outfits,why would they bother?
The Hy6 will be a success in the years to come,wether it's coupled to a Sinar,Leaf and maybe a Phase back.
There are a lot of Phase owners,that would love to stick their back on a Hy6.
It might not be a weddingshooters rig,however it does suit a lot of people.
I have nothing again Phase or Leaf etc,I just choose the best system for my needs.
End of story.
Have a nice day,as they say in the US.
Cheers,
Willem.
 

fotografz

Well-known member
Not really Mark, just wishing to get things straight and right, as they were, and not willing to let a wrong impression or false claim stand in the room, in front of the eyes of hundreds of members. Understandable. And as such I shall always intervene.

Thierry
Uh ... my post was in answer to Willem's statement ... which I quoted.

It appears you have selectively read my response where I clarified in no uncertain terms that my reference was general, not about one incident or brand.

Frankly, If folks can't come here and relate their experiences without some brand zealot jumping down their throat at every turn, then the dialog is going to get pretty narrow and loose any value.

For example, if Guy relates some issue in operational ease according to his experience as a working pro, I believe him ... people can take it for what it's worth.
But, it's not the first time I've heard that the system is finicky, including from Sinar users. You guys may be working that all out, but it is more complex than getting to work shooting photographs like with a Phase One or Hasselbald H3D ... or so it seems.
 

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
Uh ... my post was in answer to Willem's statement ... which I quoted.

It appears you have selectively read my response where I clarified in no uncertain terms that my reference was general, not about one incident or brand.

Frankly, If folks can't come here and relate their experiences without some brand zealot jumping down their throat at every turn, then the dialog is going to get pretty narrow and loose any value.

For example, if Guy relates some issue in operational ease according to his experience as a working pro, I believe him ... people can take it for what it's worth.
But, it's not the first time I've heard that the system is finicky, including from Sinar users. You guys may be working that all out, but it is more complex than getting to work shooting photographs like with a Phase One or Hasselbald H3D ... or so it seems.

Basically that is all i was saying not knocking Sinar or anyone so let's get the record straight, what I saw and what others witnessed was David was struggling and losing images having images corrupted and things like this . As Marc points out I don't need a finicky camera. Now there was some problems with this back and 12 witnesses on site . Yes most of his issues have gone away and whatever it was either Davids learning curve or something wrong he struggled and if anyone on this board feels i am off base , sorry it was what we saw and what lead me to make my comment. I will NOT sit here and avoid that issue he was having. Not saying it will happen ever again either but everyone else picked up the Phase backs all week without a issue at all. Now how would anyone look at this. I do think the Sinar folks are being over defensive, shit happens guys let's face the facts and it could have happened to any system. Ever system i owned had issues of some nature. Hell I had Canon, Nikon, DMR and let's not forget the mother of issues the M8. Love them all but they all had something funky going on. One other note David had the old back and not the new one which he is getting and i hope it is a better back than what was on site. But let's not forget software in all this.

Now let's end the misery right now also Peter felt slighted in some way from a dealer, that is his right and what he felt . It is not a grave acquisition but what he felt is wrong and he has the right to say so. His opinion and his feelings and frankly he does not need to explain it either. Thierry understandable wants to know who and wants to solve that issue , again that is his job at Sinar and he has that right also. But i think we are making this all to grave looking also. Hell guy's shit happens in all walks in this business. Let me add one more thing if i had the money for the Sinar what I saw would not stop me from buying it either if i felt it would work in my behave. There freaking sexy as can be and have awesome glass but like any system i want it to work and have the support for it and that would enter into my buying decision as it did with the Phase. You have to look at my comments as one of the owners and instructors of a workshop where my client David was not having fun with his gear and just for the record it made Jack and I not happy to watch him struggle. At the end of the day i offered him a 30 percent discount for any workshop he wanted to join us on. You have to put yourself in my shoes to understand what my comments are not that i don't want anyone to buy a Sinar far from it. I would love others as well to buy them but I want folks to be happy with there gear.

Please let's move on and let this die , it really serves not much purpose at this point. It's out there and not a big deal either. But i would like to hear more on this topic because it is very interesting to learn what prompted decisions on these backs and we have a lot of folks looking at buying, so let's help them.
 
T

thsinar

Guest
Marc,

May be again my language problem: you have written " ... you Sinar folks ...", so I feel been spoken on as well.

To put a final point to this alleged issues with David's Sinarback eMotion 75: yes, there are people who say that it is more "complicated" to use as e.g. Phase. I have heard this. On the other hand, I have also heard many others saying the opposite. But I have never heard it to be compared that way to Hasselblad backs, although that surely is the case as well. It all depends on which side you are standing, and I respect any view point.

What I don't find to be acceptable and which I cannot let stand in the room, is Guy's second mention of what happened and the way it is said:

" ... Sorry Sinar folks but be it new to the system or not the thing had issues. Not saying they all do but and maybe a rare case but turned me off immediately. Sorry i was not buying another camera that I had to fix or struggle with. Sorry Sinar folks that was my impression ..."

The "thing" DID NOT have issues or whatsoever is suggested, and there was NOTHING to be fixed, neither on the camera nor on the back. I feel sorry, but if anybody feels that it is not my right to correct words or sentences which are misleading, then stand up and tell me.

I say this with respect but firmly. It is exactly for the very reason that Guy is somebody who is listened to that I wish to be given the right to my view of the things.

Thanks for your understanding and best regards,
Thierry


Uh ... my post was in answer to Willem's statement ... which I quoted.

It appears you have selectively read my response where I clarified in no uncertain terms that my reference was general, not about one incident or brand.

Frankly, If folks can't come here and relate their experiences without some brand zealot jumping down their throat at every turn, then the dialog is going to get pretty narrow and loose any value.

For example, if Guy relates some issue in operational ease according to his experience as a working pro, I believe him ... people can take it for what it's worth.
But, it's not the first time I've heard that the system is finicky, including from Sinar users. You guys may be working that all out, but it is more complex than getting to work shooting photographs like with a Phase One or Hasselbald H3D ... or so it seems.
 

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
Marc,
I can tell you right now that if Sinar didn't sell hundreds of these outfits,why would they bother?
The Hy6 will be a success in the years to come,wether it's coupled to a Sinar,Leaf and maybe a Phase back.
There are a lot of Phase owners,that would love to stick their back on a Hy6.
It might not be a weddingshooters rig,however it does suit a lot of people.
I have nothing again Phase or Leaf etc,I just choose the best system for my needs.
End of story.
Have a nice day,as they say in the US.
Cheers,
Willem.
I agree there are a lot of Mamiya owners that would like to see this style of camera with a waist level option. The Hy6 is very nice in this regard, hopefully someday that will come for the Mamiya owners. At least have the option for it
 

Graham Mitchell

New member
It seems to me that it is improper to take one new user's difficulties with a product and then dismiss that product publicly based on that one day. Pretty much any product has a learning curve. I'm quite sure that some people who have never used a rangefinder won't pick up a Leica M8 and take great shots with it from the first day, yet I also know that this camera is capable of great results.

I went to a Phase One demonstration in Sweden around 3 years ago where the dealer tried to show me the P45 working on a Cambo camera. After 20 minutes of trying to get the back to wake up even the dealer gave up. Do you see me repeating this story to the world telling them not to buy Phase One? No, I haven't told this story until now, and I only bring it up to illustrate my point. I also know that Phase products are capable of great results and are generally reliable. And I know that to bash the product based on this one experience would be grossly unfair.

If you are going to call the Hy6 'finicky' or full of 'issues' based on one user's learning curve, then you can also dismiss Canon, Nikon, Leica, Hasselblad, Phase One, Leaf, Mamiya, etc. I have seen people having teething problems with ALL these products.

I hope I am being fair and clear.
 

Bob

Administrator
Staff member
Guy,
Have you noticed that there seems to be a right angle viewer accessory for the Mamiya finder. I wonder if that would be usable as a pseudo WLF until something better comes out. WLF is something that I miss from my old TLR days, not to mention the box brownie.
-bob
 

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
I was looking at that also Bob and maybe a option to use although not perfect you can at least get the camera below your eye and low.
 
T

thsinar

Guest
Guy,

it is your absolute right to do so, but I wish it could be with the right words.

You had been reading and told about all the "issues" and that they had been addressed within less then 24 hours and David gave the necessary details and information why this happened. You even said that in this case all's fine.

Then today you are speaking again about the "issues" suggesting again that the "issues" were back or camera related, when you know and have been explained the whole.

Below you say again that "most" of the issues have gone away, implying that there are still "issues", and that there was a problem with the back. I am too much a "perfectionist" to let it stay: ALL the "issues" have been addressed, explained, clarified. And NO, there was NOT a problem with the back. I would be the first one to tell it if it would be the case, but it wasn't or isn't.

I am sorry Guy, if I am sounding "penetrant", but it is my duty to correct such.

As Jack has written it in the other thread: "let me a month time to get used to this new back before bashing on me". Let David this month time as well to get used to his gear before jumping to conclusions. I don't believe that there are 2 standards to make judgements, are there?

Thanks for your understanding.
Thierry

Basically that is all i was saying not knocking Sinar or anyone so let's get the record straight, what I saw and what others witnessed was David was struggling and losing images having images corrupted and things like this . As Marc points out I don't need a finicky camera. Now there was some problems with this back and 12 witnesses on site . Yes most of his issues have gone away and whatever it was either Davids learning curve or something wrong he struggled and if anyone on this board feels i am off base , sorry it was what we saw and what lead me to make my comment. I will NOT sit here and avoid that issue he was having. Not saying it will happen ever again either but everyone else picked up the Phase backs all week without a issue at all. Now how would anyone look at this. I do think the Sinar folks are being over defensive, shit happens guys let's face the facts and it could have happened to any system. Ever system i owned had issues of some nature. Hell I had Canon, Nikon, DMR and let's not forget the mother of issues the M8. Love them all but they all had something funky going on. One other note David had the old back and not the new one which he is getting and i hope it is a better back than what was on site. But let's not forget software in all this.

Now let's end the misery right now also Peter felt slighted in some way from a dealer, that is his right and what he felt . It is not a grave acquisition but what he felt is wrong and he has the right to say so. His opinion and his feelings and frankly he does not need to explain it either. Thierry understandable wants to know who and wants to solve that issue , again that is his job at Sinar and he has that right also. But i think we are making this all to grave looking also. Hell guy's shit happens in all walks in this business. Let me add one more thing if i had the money for the Sinar what I saw would not stop me from buying it either if i felt it would work in my behave. There freaking sexy as can be and have awesome glass but like any system i want it to work and have the support for it and that would enter into my buying decision as it did with the Phase. You have to look at my comments as one of the owners and instructors of a workshop where my client David was not having fun with his gear and just for the record it made Jack and I not happy to watch him struggle. At the end of the day i offered him a 30 percent discount for any workshop he wanted to join us on. You have to put yourself in my shoes to understand what my comments are not that i don't want anyone to buy a Sinar far from it. I would love others as well to buy them but I want folks to be happy with there gear.

Please let's move on and let this die , it really serves not much purpose at this point. It's out there and not a big deal either. But i would like to hear more on this topic because it is very interesting to learn what prompted decisions on these backs and we have a lot of folks looking at buying, so let's help them.
 

jlm

Workshop Member
can I suggest that any sinar issues, or sinar dealer/dealership issues and discussions be moved to a separate thread?
 

David K

Workshop Member
can I suggest that any sinar issues, or sinar dealer/dealership issues and discussions be moved to a separate thread?
You've got my vote, although it seems to me that this particular subject has run it's course.
 

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
I agree and Thierry your being way over sensitive to this issue, time to move on. All systems have issues period and i said that several times but I am not going to sit here and listen that it is all David's fault and let's just leave it at that. We all here to learn and that is what this forum is about, it is not about what other forums maybe and personally no system is perfect or we would all have the same one. Sinar is not perfect Thierry you know that as well as i do but neither is Phase , Aptus or Hassy, there is no need to defend it to the end of time here. Time to let it go.
 
T

thsinar

Guest
Guy,

I will move on. But I never said that the Sinar system is perfect, in the contrary. I have said and written, with my name as a signature and many times, that no system is perfect and that all have issues one day or another, included Sinar. It is not at all about this, and I think you do understand what I am meaning.

It is about a particular wording which is misleading and suggesting other than the reality.

Guy, I am not too sensitive, simply too concerned by the truth and real picture. If I would have the time to "defend" another brand, if it needed to be defended, I would do it, and from time to time I even do. But as my time is limited and surfing here on the forum is not a duty or a job, I am concentrating on Sinar and making sure that as little as possible is left to the doubt and to the lack of information.

I have no motivation to let it go until the end of time. So yes, that's it.

Best regards,
Thierry

I agree and Thierry your being way over sensitive to this issue, time to move on. All systems have issues period and i said that several times but I am not going to sit here and listen that it is all David's fault and let's just leave it at that. We all here to learn and that is what this forum is about, it is not about what other forums maybe and personally no system is perfect or we would all have the same one. Sinar is not perfect Thierry you know that as well as i do but neither is Phase , Aptus or Hassy, there is no need to defend it to the end of time here. Time to let it go.
 

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
Thierry my words sometimes are a little stronger than my meaning. Most folks know this and please don't take any offense at all, not my intention whatsoever. Just a Italian from New Jersey and i grew up on the street for a good chunk of my life. You need to speak tough sometimes to survive but I am really a pussycat. LOL
 
Top