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S2 Impressions: A year later.

fotografz

Well-known member
I am posting this because people asked me to ... not to convince anyone of anything, nor to justify anything. At my age justifications are worn out along with my knees :)

About a year ago I test drove an S2 for about 200 shots. When Leica announced the S2 I divested myself of a lot of gear in prep for getting one ... but not without a test drive first. Guy and Jack's MFD Law Number One! :salute:

I passed on it then because it wasn't ready for what I wanted and needed. Questionable AF, no wide lens, limited availability, questions about the character of the images against my personal "Leica" expectations.

That was then, and this is now.

First a personal explanation of my functional criteria, and how certain S2 attributes now serve them better:

While I use a Leica M9 for a lot of work, I will not shoot weddings, events, fashion, commercial action or some environmental portrait work without an AF camera at the ready. I have used a M camera for 40 years, I know how to handle one in most any circumstance ... but I will not do paying work without an AF camera in the bag for certain aspects of my shooting style. I'd love to be a purist rangefinder dude, but I'm not. Not to mention that long lenses are not exactly rangefinder territory. 90mm is about it.

I also use an AF MFD camera for some of this work, and do so for pure IQ. I switched from using a Contax 645 and digital back to a Hasselblad HD system almost solely on the merits of the Hassey's superior AF. MFD provides IQ ... but it's more than that ... it provides flexibility in size by default. I crop like an Art Director because I am an Art Director. MFD simply provides more RAW data to work with when post processing. More dynamic range, nicer tonal gradations, etc. most of which remain intact when manipulating, resizing and cropping.

The closest amalgamation (read: compromise), of these attributes has been the higher end 35mm DSLRs ... of which I have explored every one in the search for what I wanted and needed to satisfy my eye. Add those system swap searches together, and more cash has flown out the door than buying two S2's. None ever satisfied me personally ... the closest being the Sony A900, which pales in comparison to the MFD results.

So, it is not hard to see why the S2 was an exciting prospect for me. It just wasn't ready for me last year when I tested it. Disappointed. :cry:

Now, the S2 AF is faster ... enough so to fit my requirements in most cases. Certainly not D3X fast, but now fast enough. I tried it at an outdoor Holiday event ... people, movement, close shots, inside and outside ... the whole 9 yards. :thumbup:

One functional thing that the 1DsMKIII and Nikon D3X have that I really like are their dual card slots. Sony has it, but it doesn't shoot parallel files. The S2 has this feature, and it is a big deal for me and what I shoot. Shooting at my rate of capture, it isn't a matter of if a card will go bad, or I'll make some stupid transfer mistake, it is when. Murphy's Law clearly states that when it happens, it'll be a corrupted, irreplaceable image, or set of images. I prefer to error on the side of caution if possible.

The S2 is pretty small. While the S lenses aren't all that much smaller/lighter than the other MFD lenses, the body is smaller, and the S35mm lens is slim, where the 28 and 35 HC lenses are not. It is much easier to carry the three lens S2 kit then it is to carry a three lens H kit. It is more an issue of proportional bulk than just weight/size.

The last big hurdle was IQ. It is the most important hurdle. For almost the whole year I watched and waited. My criteria being the look of M9 files and those from of Hassey H. Don't know what changed, or how it changed, but to my eye it did. Maybe people just needed time to get it all down ... maybe advancements in the camera coupled with better software in LR3 ... don't know, don't care. However it still needed to be tested, for my eye, no one else's.

So when the opportunity to grab the exact S2P system kit I wanted, at a package price that made it more palatable, I tried it again ... initial reaction is that it is the perfect companion for the M9 files ... only on steroids. Leica color and contrast ... ASPH and APO optics for sharp critical focus with excellent roll off to gorgeous OOF areas.

BTW I do not have a big issue with the S2 ratio ... I frequently do perspective correction with post software, and extra side data helps with this.

I also do not think this is a replacement for the H system ... I see it as the equivalent of 645 to 6X7 in the film days. I still need a really big gun for certain commercial applications, and I like the high sync speed of the H for certain applications ... but it now lessens my need for the H4D/40 which I will now sell ... along with most of the Sony kit save a body for back-up, and a few key lenses.

caveats and criticisms:

Even though I worked a deal for a whole package ... this kit is very expensive ... mostly because of the lenses. However, I'm pretty confident that the lenses will hold their value. But the body won't. Choose carefully based on your criteria, and don't sweat every advancement. I don't have that issue because I am retaining the big gun when it's needed. Otherwise 38 meg with a larger sensor capture area fits a good percentage of my needs. Hopefully, some advancements will be in the form of firmware ... thus enhancing the camera's value longer. Hassey has been pretty good at doing that. Leica would do well heeding that example.

ISO performance isn't a huge concern, but the narrow selection of ISOs on the S2 is. Hopefully that can be addressed in future firmware upgrades. ISO 500, 800 and 1000 increments would be most helpful.

A better solution than a hot folder Image Shuttle for tethered work would be most welcome ... although I probably wouldn't use it much since I use the H for that, I may in future and I'm sure many others could use it if the S2 is their only system.

I cannot and will not comment on controls and shooting flow. I have the H down pat (well, sort of pat ;)) ... and it will take me more time to master the shooting rhythm with this new camera. It's promising is all I can say.

Creative note:

I shoot people. If I shoot a landscape it is with people in it ... otherwise it's a test shot for deleting. If I strictly shot landscapes I'd think through the S2 more deeply. I shoot portraits. Kids. Weddings. People's pets. Commercial and corporate stuff. And now Pro-Bono work needing high image standards. I sell nothing in the form of web images ... if that was the criteria, none of this would be necessary. No one needs this type gear to impress other web surfers. People pay me for prints, albums, framed wall images. Commercial clients use images in so many ways it's not even funny. Clients pick pictures on the web, based on content, but the final use is usually printed, and the expectations there are much, much higher. When I read about someone setting prints out from different formats and saying there is not much difference ... I say good for them ... you just dodged an expensive bullet. However, I also think to myself, you don't have my clients doing that selecting ;)

Now, I am semi-retiring, and it may be that this will be all I need unless they drag me back in (if the economy ever recovers enough). Not a bad way to phase myself out (pardon the pun) ... however, it isn't all beach lounging and fine wines ... when it comes to my personal work, I then face the hardest to please client in my entire career :rolleyes:

-Marc

P.S, real pics to come ... I have a real world paying shoot on Dec. 29th. which will be the first true test of the S2 ... so I gotta get to practicing on deletables to get the handling down by then :eek:

In the mean-time here are a few from my Holiday outing in 18º weather with just the 35mm ... and me with no gloves or scarf or S2 manual that I failed to read before leaving ... frozen fumble fingers at work :ROTFL: But it was just enough to tell me that with some work and practice the S2 will cough up the kind of Leica punch I want (with bigger files to play with), without interfering with how I approach content, or how subjects react to me with this camera in hand.
 

David Klepacki

New member
Marc, First, thank you for sharing your opinions on the S2.

Like most people considering the S2, I have been following this camera for awhile as well. As of today, I still find the overall system unreliable in terms of consistent image quality, and Leica still has some engineering to do to get it right. There is much to like about this camera, especially its ergonomics and fast lenses, but in the end I have not seen an image that cannot be done equally as well (or better) with other cameras, and typically at less cost.

So, as for dodging an expensive bullet, you are still not out of the woods with the S2. You should contact Lloyd Chambers to compare notes. He has tested several S2 kits and lenses, and has found consistent problems with things like backfocusing and purple fringing, and which Leica has actually confirmed these problems with him in person. You can read about some of these recent findings on his blog here: http://diglloyd.com/diglloyd/2010-12-blog.html#blog20101221LeicaS2Focusing .

Good luck with your retirement.

David
 
S

Shelby Lewis

Guest
Don't know what changed, or how it changed, but to my eye it did.
This is the one thing I've been most fascinated by with the S2 this year... and I agree 100%. I don't even care how/why it's changed, it just has IMO (and for the better).

Processing? Firmware? Familiarity? Who knows...
 

fotografz

Well-known member
Marc, First, thank you for sharing your opinions on the S2.

Like most people considering the S2, I have been following this camera for awhile as well. As of today, I still find the overall system unreliable in terms of consistent image quality, and Leica still has some engineering to do to get it right. There is much to like about this camera, especially its ergonomics and fast lenses, but in the end I have not seen an image that cannot be done equally as well (or better) with other cameras, and typically at less cost.

So, as for dodging an expensive bullet, you are still not out of the woods with the S2. You should contact Lloyd Chambers to compare notes. He has tested several S2 kits and lenses, and has found consistent problems with things like backfocusing and purple fringing, and which Leica has actually confirmed these problems with him in person. You can read about some of these recent findings on his blog here: http://diglloyd.com/diglloyd/2010-12-blog.html#blog20101221LeicaS2Focusing .

Good luck with your retirement.

David
Thank you for the link David. I've followed most every piece of input, opinion, and test ... and looked at every post I could find pro or con for almost a year now. I like to be aware of any warts when going into any system ... especially those like Lloyd encountered. I then pour over these various tests and try to replicate them with my own testing using my shooting criteria. Don't really care about what others have found other than as an alert system to review the camera and lenses I have in hand ... either a year ago, or now.

I have a little bit of an advantage in doing this since I have used or currently use the other cameras in my own shooting conditions and am intimately aware of their over-all pluses and minuses as they relate to my image criteria and shooting requirements. So, I've already run controlled focus/color tests side-by-side against my H4D/40 using the superb HCD35-90 at 35mm and 70mm ... and the S180 verses the HC210/4. 100+ boring shots of X-Rite test charts later the S2 seems to be holding its own. However, all these have been done available light on locked down studio grade tripods. For me, the true test is real world shooting.

Regarding images that "cannot be done equally well with other cameras" ... I am a firm believer that that is true when comparing MFD systems. MFD is a heck of a lot more competitive in terms of pure IQ ... and I stick with my belief that the differences between Leaf, Hassey and Phase One are minuscule, and a matter of subjective nano-opinion. At the lower meg end of the competition like the 40s, I'd now also add the S2 IQ with a few subjective caveats and pluses yet to be fully determined.

However, the thing that all the other MFD choices share is the form factor and handling ... which makes them less of a replacement for higher end pro DSLRs. Frankly, after all these years, I am probably as fast and as good in handling the Hasselbald H camera as I'm going to get. The question then becomes will I get a smidgen faster or better with the S2 handling for certain shooting applications? Unfortunately, this camera is beautiful ... very seductive looking and feeling in hand, which clouds the rigid logic ;)

The other problem with all these rarified gear choices is that small increments of performance, handling, and/or IQ are disproportionally expensive ... and expensive is Leica's middle name :ROTFL:

I am also a realist regarding Leica's use of the word "perfection". I hardly found the $7,000. 21 and 24 ASPHs to be perfect in certain shooting conditions (back-lit purple fringing) ... but in the case of my 21/1.4 ASPH it is a lack of perfection I'm willing to occasionally endure for its other unique attributes. In short, nothing is perfect, and stating or implying that something is perfect is a lightening rod for criticism.

More testing yet to go before I send my hard earned cash off to La-La-Leica Land :)

-Marc
 

scott kirkpatrick

Well-known member
I
In the mean-time here are a few from my Holiday outing in 18º weather with just the 35mm ... and me with no gloves or scarf or S2 manual that I failed to read before leaving ... frozen fumble fingers at work :ROTFL: But it was just enough to tell me that with some work and practice the S2 will cough up the kind of Leica punch I want (with bigger files to play with), without interfering with how I approach content, or how subjects react to me with this camera in hand.


I'm puzzled by something -- how do you get such English-looking pictures in the suburbs of Detroit?

scott
 

ptomsu

Workshop Member
Marc,

my congratulations on your new S2 kit! I am sure this is the right decision.

Myself fighting with similar thoughts and pretty much willing to replace my H and Nikon systems with the S2. Still not found the last step :)

Peter
 

fotografz

Well-known member
This is the one thing I've been most fascinated by with the S2 this year... and I agree 100%. I don't even care how/why it's changed, it just has IMO (and for the better).

Processing? Firmware? Familiarity? Who knows...
What has been interesting Shelby, is that it seems pretty recent, and sort of all at once. :confused:

The one thing I can be sure of is that after only a few days I don't know exactly the processing path for this camera myself. However, it is exactly the same as my initial experiences with the M9. I struggled for a while (especially with B&W conversions), and then other folks seemed to hit it, and that gave me reassurance. Now the M9 is my criteria for look and feel. It just takes time.

The other thing that is sort of amusing is how different some cameras are when processing for web viewing. I still have difficulty processing any MFD file for web views compared to the Sony or even smaller formats. I actually admire how some folks actually manage to compress such huge files so well.

Yet, go to print and the story does a flip-flop.

-Marc
 

fotografz

Well-known member
I'm puzzled by something -- how do you get such English-looking pictures in the suburbs of Detroit?

scott
It is a simulation Scott ... Dickens type characterizations by the local troupe of actors which is done every year at Christmas time. ;)

Holly Michigan was a small town rail stop for the lumber industry in the 1800's and some lumber baron built the elegant old Holly Hotel as the town's center piece ... (B&W window interior shot)

The town is mostly populated by antique stores now ... which is where the B&W close-up of the little boy was shot when I went in to thaw out. (Wind chill outside had to be 10º below :eek:).

-Marc

Here's one of the Hotel (kinda flat lighting), and a snap of people more appropriately dressed than I was ... what was I thinking? :wtf:
 

fotografz

Well-known member
Marc,

my congratulations on your new S2 kit! I am sure this is the right decision.

Myself fighting with similar thoughts and pretty much willing to replace my H and Nikon systems with the S2. Still not found the last step :)

Peter
It ain't mine until I send the money Peter. ;)

Get one to shoot with. It's the only way to see if it works for you.

It would be a lot less expensive to trade/upgrade your H kit to a H4D/60, and if you already have a H4D/60 this camera isn't going to match those monster files on its best day.

But it depends on your shooting style, subject matter, and final image criteria.

-Marc
 

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
Marc are you processing in LR looks to me the same three issues I ran into. Just check the defaults since things may have changed. I remember the black point coming in at 5 which i backed off to 2 or 3, Also saturation was a touch high and also the default sharpening for the S2 was also too high which all leads to crunchy looking files. Now it's been a year so obviously things could have changed in the LR defaults. But do me a favor check and if the same you may want to try and back them down and get it to a less crunchy look. This was one of my issues with the S2 at the time with LR was there was nothing subtle about the files unless I made some adjustments.
 

fotografz

Well-known member
Here's something I just looked for ... potential CA or sensor bloom fringing ... especially with the 35mm.

If it would show up, I'd suspect it in the attached image marked #2. which was one of the first shots I took after the battery was charged.

Strong back light against hard edges of the stuff in the foreground. Whatdayathink?

I also need to do more auto focus tests shots hand-held.

-Marc
 

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
I see some on the window frame for sure and some in the branches in the snow but not too too bad. Maybe run out in your PJ's and shoot through the trees. Oh joy Marc streaking his neighbors. LOL

Video at 10
 

fotografz

Well-known member
Marc are you processing in LR looks to me the same three issues I ran into. Just check the defaults since things may have changed. I remember the black point coming in at 5 which i backed off to 2 or 3, Also saturation was a touch high and also the default sharpening for the S2 was also too high which all leads to crunchy looking files. Now it's been a year so obviously things could have changed in the LR defaults. But do me a favor check and if the same you may want to try and back them down and get it to a less crunchy look. This was one of my issues with the S2 at the time with LR was there was nothing subtle about the files unless I made some adjustments.
Good tips Guy. Thanks.

I suspected as much. These lenses may have a different contrast and sharpness requirement than my other optics and I'm over-processing.

The B&Ws were using one of the stock Presets in LR and I probably will have to make my own for this camera like I did for the M9.

I had the same issue when shooting the Hassey back on the view camera ... the defaults were to high for the Rodenstock and Schneider Digital lenses.

I'll keep that in mind as I keep testing this pup.:thumbs:

The learning train is chugging up the hill :ROTFL:

-Marc
 

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
Yea they look a little over processed reason I mentioned it. Obviously as we both know it takes some real time to get these system in check and get the absolute best from them and defaults in some of the raw converters are not dead on for sure. Also I know what your looking for and that is a more subtle look and you are looking for your happy spot with this. Otherwise looking good and thanks for going through this exercise with everyone. As many should know Marc is doing the here is what i am getting as he finds his way with this so we don't want to be too critical until he finds that happy spot. I been down this road so many times i hate to count but this stuff just takes time even from someone with Marcs vast experience. It's a process pure and simple
 

fotografz

Well-known member
Yea they look a little over processed reason I mentioned it. Obviously as we both know it takes some real time to get these system in check and get the absolute best from them and defaults in some of the raw converters are not dead on for sure. Also I know what your looking for and that is a more subtle look and you are looking for your happy spot with this. Otherwise looking good and thanks for going through this exercise with everyone. As many should know Marc is doing the here is what i am getting as he finds his way with this so we don't want to be too critical until he finds that happy spot. I been down this road so many times i hate to count but this stuff just takes time even from someone with Marcs vast experience. It's a process pure and simple

Or not, and I send it all back :ROTFL:

So far I don't mind the images as printed rather than web uploads. Probably need to back off the web sized images ... which I seem to always have trouble with getting right.

Looking more for the look of shot with the people all bundled up.

We'll see. Don't have a ton of time except early AM because of the Holiday duties with family ... which is a good thing :thumbs:

-Marc
 

David K

Workshop Member
Good stuff Marc, and you've got some skilz with the English language to boot... "subjective nano-opinions" almost made me spill my coffee :) Look forward to hearing of your progress with the processing.
 
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