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S2 Impressions: A year later.

David K

Workshop Member
Speaking of weather related issues I'm thinking of getting some clear protective filters (probably B&W) for my S2 lenses. Blowing sand and salt spray down at the beach makes me think it might be a good thing to do but I've never bothered with them for any other system. But these lenses are more expensive than most.
 

David Klepacki

New member
Enthusiasm welcome David ... but I didn't quite say that.

The S2 focused in lowish light at about the same speed as my H4D/40 would. That isn't the same as True Focus with APL.

The True Focus/Ultra Focus feature is where the camera makes nano adjustments when stopped down to optimize for that specific f/stop.

True Focus with Absolute Position Lock is where the camera adjusts for off-center subject matter focussed with the center AF spot, and when recomposed, adjusts the AF to account for the inevitable loss of critical focus.

When shooting people in a candid style I do use TF, but not all the time. When shooting portraits I use it almost all the time to keep the eyes in focus regardless of composition. I do not have to place the head in the center of the frame when shooting a waist up portrait with the 100/2.2 @ 2.2.

-Marc

Marc,

I did not mean to imply that the Leica S2 can do the same thing as the Hasselblad H4D. Of course, there are functional and engineering differences between the focusing abilities of these two cameras.

What I find important in your evaluation of the Leica S2 is that you feel the S2 is perfectly fine in most autotofocus situations and that it does meet your high standards. When a person like yourself, who has expertise with the Hasselblad H4D camera, votes with his own pocketbook and chooses the Leica S2, it indicates that the additional Hasselblad focusing ability in their H4D is not really necessary for you.

In other words, as a result of your hands-on shooting with the Leica S2, you feel that you can manage just fine and create superb images without Hasselblad's focusing technologies. To me, this is a major conclusion.

Well done, and congratulations!

David
 

KurtKamka

Subscriber Member
For the type of shooting you do, Marc, True Focus has to be a giant check mark in the Hasselblad column. For a wide variety of portrait and event types of shooting, focusing and recomposing with complete peace of mind with a medium format camera is a huge advantage.
 

David Klepacki

New member
For the type of shooting you do, Marc, True Focus has to be a giant check mark in the Hasselblad column. For a wide variety of portrait and event types of shooting, focusing and recomposing with complete peace of mind with a medium format camera is a huge advantage.
If this were true, then Marc would have rejected the S2 after his first day of shooting with it.

The fact that Marc has not found any real deficiencies with the S2 autofocusing in a variety of his shooting conditions says a lot. Apparently, the S2 is actually improved to where he could use it confidently.

So, the Hasselblad True Focus may not be such a big of a deal after all, and the Leica S2 is a suitable alternative to the H4D, since the S2 obviously delivers outstanding images without any True Focus ability.
 

woodyspedden

New member
I will double check that Mark. Thanks for posting.

To be clear, when I say stuck I mean it was stuck as in unresponsive ... there was no play or movement of the shutter button at all when pressed ... like in the old days when you switched a shutter release collar to the locked position so you couldn't accidentally fire the camera.

Investigations continue.

-Marc
Marc

I too have had these occasional "freezes" as you have described. The most recent was during Christmas shots of my grandchildren (SF 58 flash work) when I took one shot then almost immediately took another. The second shot was an occasion when pushing the shutter button simply did nothing. So either I had a freeze like you or I guess it is possible that the SF 58 wasn't ready to fire. I don't think it was the flash as the ready light was on but perhaps it wasn't as I tried to fire. Not much help I am afraid but just to let you know you aren't alone with this problem

Woody

P.S. I am optimistic that the new firmware (supposedly to be ready 12/2010) will fix many of these nagging issues including the problems with infinity focus. I understand it will have focus adjust features (similar I would guess to the D3X) and if so, that would be terrific. I would be willing to spend significant time doing these adjustments on my lenses (35 and 70) and the soon to be received (I hope) 120 Makro. Then we could totally forget the current focus issues
 

fotografz

Well-known member
Marc

I too have had these occasional "freezes" as you have described. The most recent was during Christmas shots of my grandchildren (SF 58 flash work) when I took one shot then almost immediately took another. The second shot was an occasion when pushing the shutter button simply did nothing. So either I had a freeze like you or I guess it is possible that the SF 58 wasn't ready to fire. I don't think it was the flash as the ready light was on but perhaps it wasn't as I tried to fire. Not much help I am afraid but just to let you know you aren't alone with this problem

Woody

P.S. I am optimistic that the new firmware (supposedly to be ready 12/2010) will fix many of these nagging issues including the problems with infinity focus. I understand it will have focus adjust features (similar I would guess to the D3X) and if so, that would be terrific. I would be willing to spend significant time doing these adjustments on my lenses (35 and 70) and the soon to be received (I hope) 120 Makro. Then we could totally forget the current focus issues
Oh Woody, we need to talk !!!!

Is there some setting I am missing to use just straight TTL with the SF58? All other mode settings work ... TTL/HSS, M, A ... but I can't get just TTL to fire.

I am using Manual camera exposure mode and setting various shutter speeds below the top sync speed of 1/125th ... 1/30th, 1/60th ... no joy. Tried A exposure mode (1/60th) ... no joy. TTL fires on my M9 so it isn't the flash unit.

My main concern now is the shutter locking up. That is a big no-no for the wedding work I do.

BTW it is 12/2010 ... and the S2 has the latest firmware which is pretty recent ... this month I think ... it came installed in the camera.

Thanks,

-Marc
 

dfarkas

Workshop Member
Is there some setting I am missing to use just straight TTL with the SF58? All other mode settings work ... TTL/HSS, M, A ... but I can't get just TTL to fire.

I am using Manual camera exposure mode and setting various shutter speeds below the top sync speed of 1/125th ... 1/30th, 1/60th ... no joy. Tried A exposure mode (1/60th) ... no joy. TTL fires on my M9 so it isn't the flash unit.

-Marc
Marc,

TTL-HSS is normal TTL mode on the S2. You can use any focal plane shutter speed in this mode, from multi-second to 1/4000th. The camera can be in any exposure mode (M, P, S or A).

Hope this puts an end to the head-scratching. :)

Sorry I didn't reply earlier, but I'm away visiting family and didn't have computer access until today.

David
 

peterv

New member
I assume you are not joking :)

In a D700 or D3X you can fine adjust the focus of different lenses via the internal menu - so this stores an offset value for w number of lenses if you want individually and then applies this offset for the specific lens.

In case the 35 on the S2 would have some backfocus, then you could try to find out the amount via some test shots and then store it in camera for this specific lens. And you could do so individually for all lenses if necessary.

I wonder if this feature is available in the S2. Or could become available via a FW upgrade?
Peter,

here's what David Farkas wrote about focus adjustment:

Leica is taking the time to measure, calibrate, and program each and every lens with this AF fine tuning data, as well as recording measured aperture info. The concept is that an S lens mounted on any S2 body will communicate its focus calibration info to the camera, making AF more accurate at all apertures and distances.

http://forum.getdpi.com/forum/showpost.php?p=124894&postcount=48

Hope this helps.
 

ptomsu

Workshop Member
Peter,

here's what David Farkas wrote about focus adjustment:

Leica is taking the time to measure, calibrate, and program each and every lens with this AF fine tuning data, as well as recording measured aperture info. The concept is that an S lens mounted on any S2 body will communicate its focus calibration info to the camera, making AF more accurate at all apertures and distances.

http://forum.getdpi.com/forum/showpost.php?p=124894&postcount=48

Hope this helps.
This actually clarifies a lot - many thanks, had read David's review some months ago but forgot - sorry.

I am very confident that Leica is doing a good job with the S2 and actually as I already wrote here and in other threads multiple tomes - if I had found someone to pay enough for my H3D39 and lenses I would already be in the S2 camp. But as this did not happen I will remain happy camper in the H system. Only real upgrade I would like is for a H4D mainly because of TF, I do less care about the megapixel count of the back.

But maybe finally it will become a H4D60 anyway, the upgrade offers are so good I do not know how long I can resist :cool:
 

fotografz

Well-known member
Marc,

TTL-HSS is normal TTL mode on the S2. You can use any focal plane shutter speed in this mode, from multi-second to 1/4000th. The camera can be in any exposure mode (M, P, S or A).

Hope this puts an end to the head-scratching. :)

Sorry I didn't reply earlier, but I'm away visiting family and didn't have computer access until today.

David
Thank You David!!!!

That confirms what I was beginning to suspect. I also noted that once you set it to TTL/HSS is retains the setting ... which is important.

Any insights on the locked shutter button? It was about 20º out. No dampness, just cold. Battery was fully charged. About 15 minutes into walking around it locked up. I have the camera set to NOT go to sleep when shooting on the street like this. Turned the camera off then back on ... no joy. Eventually unlocked, but locked up again a few minutes later.

Anyone?

-Marc
 

fotografz

Well-known member
Okay everyone ... thank you all for all the wonderful and quite civil input (and creative insights on the other thread) ... especially considering how this camera has been a lightening rod for controversy.

As I head for the home stretch, I can say with confidence that the S2 is a terrific camera, even if not quite yet mature for some photographer's needs. It is far from perfect, but it is a one-of-a-kind with many perfectly wonderful things going for it. It is easy to define it as an expansive and capable creative tool for myself.

I have a multi-decades relationship with my Leica dealer, and wasn't considering the S2 due to the cost ... until he made me a rockin' deal. A deal I had to consider because of it being a sort of reward for our extremely long relationship of mutual aid to each other. So, price was and is a factor ... which isn't unusual for any Leica product ... but less of a factor than before.

If I had independently decided to move forward with a normal retail dealing, I would have felt obliged to deal with David Farkas as he provided the first test S2 about a year ago. Thank you David and company.

To clear up a few things ... this is NOT being considered as a replacement for my Hasselblad kit. That isn't going anywhere, in fact it is being upgraded. If I decide to keep the S2P I will sell the H4D/40 and a few HC lenses I tend to use only with the H4D/40 ... and sell some Sony gear. My studio is ruled by Hasselblad, as are certain commercial jobs. However, in semi-retirement, that is less of a consideration now, and personal work is coming more to the forefront.

So, even though the H4D/40 would be sold ... it isn't an indication of anything lacking or some photographic superiority on the part of the S2. It is simply a less bulky kit in a form factor more conducive to some of, not all of, my creative directions. However, the two are close enough in balance that it makes the decision a bit more difficult.

The S2 ISO performance is fine for what and how I shoot. I did some very low interior light shots in a dimly lit church @ 1250 and the 17"X 22" prints were fine.

The S2 AF seems to be okay, and I will be giving up some advantages of the H4D True Focus as a compromise to gain other advantages.

I will also be giving up a bit of hand-hold ability (initially until I get a hand strap etc.) and lose a bit of flash work versatility compared to the H4D/40 with mirror delay set and leaf shutter lenses that sync to 1/800th ... but gaining the much higher shutter speed of a focal plane shutter camera in bright light with fast aperture lenses. Which is why this is a nice compliment to the Hassey kit rather than a replacement.

Input here on sharpening was helpful, and as I work with the files they are beginning to feel in the Leica family of color and contrast, etc. ... which is a plus.

The challenge of the new is always a plus because it is fun.

Finally, it isn't all logic ... the seductive design and tactile feel of this camera is not to be underplayed ... we are visual people after all.


My dealer has given me more time to sort through the last few things I need cleared up. If the shutter button freeze is a camera issue rather than a user issue ... the camera is gone. That is a simple decision.

-Marc
 

fotografz

Well-known member
Recent Hand-Held shots in the environments and lighting that I shoot in frequently.

Church Interior:

S2P, ISO 1250, Aperture Priority, 1/60th shutter, Auto WB, Summarit-S 35 @ f/2.5


Made a 17" X 22" print, and the shadow noise was not an issue at all (BTW, the shadows look crushed here but @ full size contain subtile detail). This also told me that the 35 is as wide as I'll need to do groups with the Quadra lighting kit, and I could easily use ISO 640 to preserve some ambient background when using the strobes like I do currently with the Sony A900 and H4D/40 using ISO 400 or 800. THIS is why I hope Leica provides interium ISO steps in future. I'd like to use ISO 800 sensitivity. These type shots will improve for real work because I normally use a tripod or mono pod no matter what camera it is.

After church, a Hand-Held action-grab outdoor shot done while walking backwards against the wind and wearing big gloves :eek:

Leica S2P, ISO 640, Aperture Priority, 1/1000h shutter, Auto WB, Summarit-S 35 @ f/2.8 (About a 65% crop).

This told me that while I could just as easily use the Sony for the shot, I don't need it ... the S2 can handle these type shots quite well ... reducing the need for two different cameras (except using the Sony and a 24-70 zoom as back-up, since I won't be getting a second S2 anytime soon ;)) Nothing new there as I use the A900 as back-up to the H4D./40 now anyway.

Another month with the camera and working with the files and it should get even better.

-Marc
 

David Klepacki

New member
The S2 AF seems to be okay, and I will be giving up some advantages of the H4D True Focus as a compromise to gain other advantages.
Marc,

Thank you very much for sharing your expertise and insights into the Leica S2. I think this will help others who are also considering the S2 camera. Your testing has indeed shown that it is an excellent camera system that can deliver professional quality images without the need for True Focus like the Hasselblad H4D cameras. The advantages of using Leica glass and soon being able to have both leaf shutter and focal plane shutter capability is more than just a compromise.

David
 

fotografz

Well-known member
Marc,

Thank you very much for sharing your expertise and insights into the Leica S2. I think this will help others who are also considering the S2 camera. Your testing has indeed shown that it is an excellent camera system that can deliver professional quality images without the need for True Focus like the Hasselblad H4D cameras. The advantages of using Leica glass and soon being able to have both leaf shutter and focal plane shutter capability is more than just a compromise.

David
David, you may keep harping on the TF as if were NOT an advantage because you haven't actually experienced it to the degree I have. It's an advantage over almost any camera's AF system currently available when composing with off-center subject matter. Gotta give Hassey credit where credit is due.

Sure you can get results with other cameras ... we've been doing all along haven't we? This is just surer, faster and a lot easier ... that's all.

If I get any leaf shutter S lenses it may be the 120 macro when available. Don't need it for the other lenses, I have the big gun with an even higher sync speed for that.

The glass is definitely to die for. No debate there. :thumbs:

Everything involves a trade off. The S2 is no different. Can't use it on my view camera ... and all that other stuff that's been beaten to death.:deadhorse:

It's simply terrific for what it was intended for.:thumbup:

All the best,

-Marc
 

David K

Workshop Member
Marc, best of luck with your upcoming shoot... I hope the S2 delivers the goods for you. I've got great respect for your opinions and, should you be so inclined, would like to hear what you think of the individual lenses.
 

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
David I liked the 180mm as it was a very nice lens even handheld but the 70mm I was not impressed with overall compared to the 80D from Phase. About equal. But I had a demo lens so who knows. Honestly I have not seen anything yet that is blowing up my skirt sorry to say. Which is really bugging me given the marketing and price. But I am extremely picky and i already shoot MF and impressing me is going to be a really tough task. MF shooters that are already in this ballpark are a tough bunch to crack. Now don't take that as a negative at all we are just used to seeing this type of quality today out of our own systems. The S2 to me is just different ergos and nothing more, it is not going to smoke Phase and Hassy at least from my testing. BTW I'm already regretting posting this as some folks get a wrong read on my comments which is really sad but narrow minded thinking is not doing your homework. I think in industry reality not name brands. I blacked out my camera name to One, My Sony to Ony and my Little Sony to Little S---. LOL

BTW My new website is online now if folks are interested in seeing the 8 year change. Okay back to work for me , client callings.
 

woodyspedden

New member
Oh Woody, we need to talk !!!!

Is there some setting I am missing to use just straight TTL with the SF58? All other mode settings work ... TTL/HSS, M, A ... but I can't get just TTL to fire.

I am using Manual camera exposure mode and setting various shutter speeds below the top sync speed of 1/125th ... 1/30th, 1/60th ... no joy. Tried A exposure mode (1/60th) ... no joy. TTL fires on my M9 so it isn't the flash unit.

My main concern now is the shutter locking up. That is a big no-no for the wedding work I do.

BTW it is 12/2010 ... and the S2 has the latest firmware which is pretty recent ... this month I think ... it came installed in the camera.

Thanks,

-Marc
Hey Marc

When I first got my SF 58 I had the same problem. However David Farkas instructed me that the TTL feature does not work with the S2. One must work with the TTL HS. I do and it works great for me.

I just installed the new firmware (1.00.24) and some of the differences are pretty amazing to me. I was wrong about the AF issues as I had predicted that there would be lens tweaking a la the D3X. No such thing. The lenses are calibrated to the body (as you said in one of your posts) and the issue was truly the size of the spot in the center sensor. I understand now that the spot size is very different at close range than at infinity and now both seem (to me) to be pretty much spot on. No pun intended!

I had truly been suffering from the performance of the AF system and now I am thrilled! Seems to me the S2 is now what it was originally intended to be.

It is also great to be able to use lossless compression (40mb files instead of 70mb).

I also really like the new histogram and the ability to set both the black and white clipping levels in software.

All in all, some fundamentally necessary improvements and a lot of neat feature adds.

Now if I could only get my 120 Makro.

Woody
 

David Klepacki

New member
David, you may keep harping on the TF ...
Marc, I do not mean to "harp". I just think that it is great to hear that the S2 can deliver the goods from someone like yourself who is very experienced with the H4D. I do not know of anyone else with your Hasselblad H4D experience who has also openly tested the Leica S2, and certainly neither Mark Dubovoy nor Lloyd Chambers can claim such H4D expertise as yourself. Many people who are now switching to digital medium format gear often ask me what cameras they should consider. Of course, I can give them first hand knowledge of only those cameras that I have actually used. However, I like to be able to point them to other photographers who have expertise in the cameras that I do not, and this thread allows me to do just that.

So, I only wish to commend you on your contributions here. I believe it will give other photographers some clarity in their consideration of the S2, at least in comparison to the H4D, and especially to those folks who wish to make the same compromises as you with regard to the choice of shooting with an S2.

David
 
Okay everyone ... thank you all for all the wonderful and quite civil input (and creative insights on the other thread) ... especially considering how this camera has been a lightening rod for controversy...

-Marc
This has been a very informative thread for those interested in the S2 and those that already have one and glean a little more information. More importantly, as you point out, this has been a civil discussion. I am very glad to see more and more people using the S2 and sharing information about its use. It is helpful to all of us.

Also, I am impressed with the indoor church photo. I have avoided ISO 1250 as much as possible, but will be a bit more open minded about it now. I'm thinking the noise could work well in B&W conversions.
 

fotografz

Well-known member
David I liked the 180mm as it was a very nice lens even handheld but the 70mm I was not impressed with overall compared to the 80D from Phase. About equal. But I had a demo lens so who knows. Honestly I have not seen anything yet that is blowing up my skirt sorry to say. Which is really bugging me given the marketing and price. But I am extremely picky and i already shoot MF and impressing me is going to be a really tough task. MF shooters that are already in this ballpark are a tough bunch to crack. Now don't take that as a negative at all we are just used to seeing this type of quality today out of our own systems. The S2 to me is just different ergos and nothing more, it is not going to smoke Phase and Hassy at least from my testing. BTW I'm already regretting posting this as some folks get a wrong read on my comments which is really sad but narrow minded thinking is not doing your homework. I think in industry reality not name brands. I blacked out my camera name to One, My Sony to Ony and my Little Sony to Little S---. LOL

BTW My new website is online now if folks are interested in seeing the 8 year change. Okay back to work for me , client callings.
Guy, new site looks good. I have a few "Art Director" comments I'll PM to you ... once an Art Director, always an Art Director :ROTFL:

Have to agree that the S2 isn't going to "Smoke Phase or Hassey", and for sure the playing field is pretty competitive with users that have stiff standards. IMO, if Leica had tried to play the same ergo game, they would have been still-born. The attraction is the form, a reasonable expectation of great glass, and the possibility of narrowing down to a simpler set for a wider range of applications.

For sure it is all a PITA to do this if you already are into something else. However, I'm sort of at a milestone in my life and it's now or never. We'll see.

-Marc
 
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