S2 Impressions: A year later.

[fotografz]

You're not using Capture One's Chromatic Aberration Removal or Skin Tone Consistency as part of your Import Base Style are you .

I HATE chromatic aberration! Pet peeve of mine along with nearly-level horizons.

I'm sure the client never notices, but I just can't stand it! Get it all the time with my Canon 85mm/1.2. Thank goodness for C1!

Great shot by the way!

My New Years resolution is to get you to switch to C1 for raw processing. Not the whole world - just you .

:ROTFL:

No, sorry to say that for proofing I just use Lightroom because of the swift access to tools without moving to PS. At 3:30PM I loaded 150 shots to get to proof level and onto a DVD and pulled three sample prints by 5PM to take to the couple's engagement party ... where I continued shooting.

But ... you never know what the new year will bring ... I do have C1 Pro on my machine

Thanks,

Marc

 

[fotografz]

The Sony form factor is what i really like. The controls are so shooter friendly. Honestly better than any Nikon/Canon I ever had and even better than my beloved DMR. That's saying a lot for me. The S2 I did not like the grip at the bottom was way to wide and put too much pressure on ring and pinky fingers. The S2 was nice but in all honesty I like the Sony ergos much better for this style. But we all have different ergo preferences.

I would have had to change how I handled the S2 ... I kept accidentally pressing the selector buttons on the back. I put a hand strap on the S2 and that part worked great as I tend to walk about with camera hanging at arms length at my side. Without the hand strap that would be pretty tiring since the grip is chunky.

-Marc

 

[dougpeterson]

No, sorry to say that for proofing I just use Lightroom because of the swift access to tools without moving to PS. At 3:30PM I loaded 150 shots to get to proof level and onto a DVD and pulled three sample prints by 5PM to take to the couple's engagement party ... where I continued shooting.

But ... you never know what the new year will bring ... I do have C1 Pro on my machine

Prior to version 6 I would have agreed that was the best way forward since often the ability to, for instance, print without having to process and open in Photoshop is more important than the nuances like chromatic aberration, color, etc.

Now that version 6 has local adjustments, printing, and many other new features I'd say your as good off or better for speed and the image quality advantages are many especially when it comes to super fast (i.e. zero work once set up), but still very good skin tone consistency even for your slightly purple clients or cold days with purple noses . Just Import With our Style called Skin-StrongAntiRudolph and viola.

Doug Peterson (e-mail Me)
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[Paratom]

Thank you Marc!
I have to admit that I am still attracted by the S2 even though I fully understand your decission.
The idea of a near MF IQ package in a DSLR form factor and weather proof is appealing.
Happy New Year to verybody!
Tom

 

[ptomsu]

Also still very attracted by the S2, but I am curious to not again run into similar issues which come now to my mind from my M8 times ....

Will have another look in a few months from now, maybe it will be ready then?

A Happy New Year to all of you!

Peter

 

[stephengilbert]

The question "besides your functional problems, would you mind to comment how you found the files of the S2 to compare to those of the A90," reminded me of the bad joke, "Other than that, Mrs. Lincoln, how did you enjoy the play?"

I wonder whether part of Leica's problems is caused by the many people who seem to continue to look for a reason to ignore them? If the camera doesn't work, its ergonomics are irrelevant.

And the fact that it sometimes works, or has worked for some people, doesn't seem to mean much to those who have to rely on it for work. When I had to send my M8 to New Jersey to get it repaired, I could still earn a living. If Marc's or Guy's camera fails, that's a different story.

 

[ceh]

All the best to 2011..

 

[David K]

If Marc's or Guy's camera fails, that's a different story.

Indeed... and that's a major difference between amateurs and pros. Pros need backup bodies and access to rental pools which, due to cost and newness, puts Leica at a disadvantage relative to more mature and less expensive systems. I don't put anywhere near the mileage on my systems as a pro but the only camera that has failed me has been the DMR and it took quite a while to get repaired. I suspect I will be without my S2 for some time when I send it in for replacement of the top screen and, while I'm not looking forward to it, it won't be costing me any lost revenue.

 

[Mark Gowin]

Marc, did you try to troubleshoot the S2 problem after your shoot? I understand if you didn't bother to invest any more time in the S2. However, it would be nice to know if you were able to find a cause for the problem you experience (e.g., focus mode, bad card, bad battery, bad camera). I ask to because it would be nice to know what to watch for or avoid with my own S2.

 

[KurtKamka]

So a year later and the S2 is still ranked beneath the Sony as a DSLR form-factor camera... I don't think that bodes well for the longevity of the S2.

Hmmmm .... just a fool biting his tongue.

 

[fotografz]

So a year later and the S2 is still ranked beneath the Sony as a DSLR form-factor camera... I don't think that bodes well for the longevity of the S2.

Oh, I wouldn't say that. The S2 is more than any 35mm DSLR ... it just needs to mature and become a steady eddie ... or needs to reach a person far luckier than I

I hate to send it back ... but trust is the number one necessary attribute of gear for me.

-Marc

 

[fotografz]

Marc, did you try to troubleshoot the S2 problem after your shoot? I understand if you didn't bother to invest any more time in the S2. However, it would be nice to know if you were able to find a cause for the problem you experience (e.g., focus mode, bad card, bad battery, bad camera). I ask to because it would be nice to know what to watch for or avoid with my own S2.

Hi Mark,

Someone suggested it may be the battery ... and I did note that each time it failed it was in 20º cold. So I put the other battery in the camera knowing the one that was in it was installed when the camera failed ... and then put the camera out in my car to get cold with the other battery installed ... unfortunately the temps here rose to 45º.:angry:

It's not the CF card. I used a different reformatted 16 gig San Disk Extreme IV card for the more recent Ann Arbor shoot.

Not sure what you mean by focus mode. Not sure why it would have anything to do with focus. I was using the shutter button in one smooth press ... just like any camera. Worked that way for a week, and then it didn't.

When it locked up, I turned the camera off and removed the battery, reinstalled it and turned the camera back on and the shutter button was still locked up.

One other separate issue I haven't mentioned: ... when I installed a CF and SDHC of the same capacity, and set the camera to "Parallel", it recognized two cards and let me format both, but never recorded to the SD card. :wtf:

-Marc

 

[hcubell]

Indeed... and that's a major difference between amateurs and pros. Pros need backup bodies and access to rental pools which, due to cost and newness, puts Leica at a disadvantage relative to more mature and less expensive systems. I don't put anywhere near the mileage on my systems as a pro but the only camera that has failed me has been the DMR and it took quite a while to get repaired. I suspect I will be without my S2 for some time when I send it in for replacement of the top screen and, while I'm not looking forward to it, it won't be costing me any lost revenue.

With all due respect, the line you draw between pros and amateurs in terms of the need for reliability is very misguided. A pro typically shoots with backup solutions at hand, and in major cities has easy access to rental pools with similar equipment. There are many serious "amateurs" who travel to remote locations at great expense to take photographs, and the failure of their camera equipment can ruin the trip. I know this from multiple, personal experiences. The reliability of all of this mfd equipment is the elephant in the room that too many people ignore at their peril. Reading about the issues with the S2, I would not go near that camera with a 10 foot pole unless I could afford three of them.

 

[GrahamWelland]

There are many serious "amateurs" who travel to remote locations at great expense to take photographs, and the failure of their camera equipment can ruin the trip. I know this from multiple, personal experiences.

:thumbs: I couldn't agree more. I NEVER do those types of trip without a backup and twice this year all of the extra weight and inconvenience of a backup has paid for itself. In September I killed my Leaf (my fault) but had a D3x system with me and so could carry on shooting for the next two weeks 1000's of miles from home and then in October I had a D3 & 70-200VR fall off a land rover while in the bush on safari in Africa - it survived - but I had a D3s and other glass so had it been compromised I was still able to keep shooting. Now I'm paranoid about this so now I have my repaired Leaf as a backup to my P40+ plus I have my Phase One DF system to back up the Alpa. Overkill? Possibly but not compared to the gut wrenching feeling of having a great photo opportunity somewhere special and nothing to shoot it with.

I can totally relate to Marc's feeling when the S2 let him down right at the most crucial moment, not once but 3x. :wtf: That's normally any sane person's strike point too for any work tool, business relationship or even personal equipment.

 

[Mark Gowin]

...Not sure what you mean by focus mode. Not sure why it would have anything to do with focus. I was using the shutter button in one smooth press ... just like any camera. Worked that way for a week, and then it didn't...

Per the S2 manual page 37 for AFs focus mode - "Before the focus is set, the shutter cannot be released even by pressing the shutter release button all the way down." So if you were using AFs focus mode, then the camera may have been behaving exactly as designed. The shutter will not fire until focus is locked.

In AFc mode you can release the shutter at any time even if none of the subject is in focus.

Just for the heck of it, I tested both AFs and AFc modes on my S2 to see how it behaves.

AFs and shutter button - I manually de-focused the lens and quickly pressed the shutter button all the way down. The shutter did not release immediately. There was considerable delay before the shutter fired. It was like the camera wanted to fire, but realized the image was not in focus, then it focused and fired. I say it like this because there was a delay from pressing the button fully and autofocus starting. In AFs, if you press the shutter button part-way the autofocus locks, then you press the button further to release the shutter. If you bypass the half (third) press, then it seems to take longer to get the shutter to fire.

AFc and shutter button - I manually de-focused the lens and quickly pressed the shutter button all the way down. The shutter immediately fired and I got an out of focus image. The proper method is similar to AFs except in AFc the focus is continuously adjusted as long as the button is in mid position.

I use the MF focus mode which lets me assign AFc focus mode to the rear thumb button. I find it much easier to control autofocus using the rear button. In my opinion it is tricky to control the autofocus using the shutter release button because there are three pressure points in the button. More importantly I prefer to have AF lock and AE lock on separate buttons. In my set up, I have AF/AF lock on the rear button and AE/AE lock on the shutter button.

...One other separate issue I haven't mentioned: ... when I installed a CF and SDHC of the same capacity, and set the camera to "Parallel", it recognized two cards and let me format both, but never recorded to the SD card. :wtf:...

This is a major wtf and one I discovered early on. For whatever reason (perhaps file size), the S2 will not simultaneously write DNG files to both CF and SD cards. Currently, the only time the S2 will write files to both cards simultaneously is when DNG+jpeg is selected. The DNGs will write to the CF card and JPEGs will write to the SD card.

In my opinion this is a major lapse in Leica's S2 firmware design and one that I expected to have been corrected by now. The benefit of having dual card slots is so that back-up files can be written to a separate card. It's not possible in the S2 unless you count a JPEG as a backup. Surely, this will be corrected soon now that compressed DNGs are available.

 

[Paratom]

The question "besides your functional problems, would you mind to comment how you found the files of the S2 to compare to those of the A90," reminded me of the bad joke, "Other than that, Mrs. Lincoln, how did you enjoy the play?"

I wonder whether part of Leica's problems is caused by the many people who seem to continue to look for a reason to ignore them? If the camera doesn't work, its ergonomics are irrelevant.

And the fact that it sometimes works, or has worked for some people, doesn't seem to mean much to those who have to rely on it for work. When I had to send my M8 to New Jersey to get it repaired, I could still earn a living. If Marc's or Guy's camera fails, that's a different story.

Stephen,
while some equipment may cause more problems than other statistcly there is NO equipment which is 100% reliable.
2 years ago I brought a D3x and a 24-70/2.8 on a mountain and the lens got stuck. Does this mean I should not call the D3x and the 24-70 professional equipment any more?
I have used a M8 for years without problems giving me great IQ while others still call this camera flawed.
I am not ignoring the problems posted here. But I also do not ignore posts (and also people I talked to in person) who do use a S2 and are happy with it.

I guess one would eventually need more patience and time to get a good sample of an S2 compared to other cameras. But it could be very well worth it since it would offer some factors which could make me use it more often than I use my Hy6 gear.

For comparison - my brand new 50asph had to be sent to Leica for calibration. I could have said no way - bad quality control I dont buy that product/give it back. But they fixed it and this lens is just great.

Regarding the S2 (and other cameras as well) I think one has to find out:
a) is a problem a design failure and just doesnt work right or
b) is a a quality control problem which can be sorted out (with some patience)
c) am I willing to and do I have the time and patience to sort problems out

regarding c) it also makes a big difference if you are Pro or not and if you live not far away from Leica

Regarding the S2 (and Leica in general) I think its still a great company, they are innovative. I think anybody who expects the S2 as a totally new product line to not have any issues in the beginning would be a dreamer.
If thesre are issues which can be sorted out than we should not oversee the potential of the system/idea.

I can get a defective shutter release (or software) to be repaired (I guess), but I can not make an "unprotected" camera weather proof, or make a big camera small, or make a small display big, or make a not so great damped body better damped.

I try to read and learn here not only about the problems of gear but also about the chances and positive factors.

 

[stephengilbert]

Wonderful, the S2 has potential. Perhaps. And will it still be a competitive product when its potential is realized?

If a car was beautiful, and "ergonomic," and handled well, but was unreliable and very expensive, would you buy one to use for daily driving or a long trip?

 

[Paratom]

Wonderful, the S2 has potential. Perhaps. And will it still be a competitive product when its potential is realized?

If a car was beautiful, and "ergonomic," and handled well, but was unreliable and very expensive, would you buy one to use for daily driving or a long trip?

Stephen,
I have not yet made my own conclusion on the S2. Is it less reliable than other MF cameras? If yes-by how much?
How representative are things you read in the internet?
Would you rather buy a car (or camera) which is a little more reliable but doesnt fit your needs?
Are you willing to accept somewhat more problems in the beginning if something on the other side fits you very well (again: I do not know yet if the S2 would fit me well).
Do you trust a company that they will support you and fix things if they dont work? (Sent my M9 with 4 lenses in, got it calibrated in 2 weeks and all works very precise now) HEre I think Leica is highly motivated to fix things.

By the way - if nobody would have driven the first car even though it was not that reliable we still would ride on horses or maybe even walk on four legs ourselfes (more reliable than walking on 2 feet in the beginning)

I would have decided as Marc but what if someone would testdrive a S2 and it just worked without any problems.

 

[fotografz]

Marc,

I'm very sorry you experienced problems with your S2 adventure.

The cracked sensor glass was a known issue about 6 months ago and affected M9s as well (actually much more so). The cause was a defective batch of sensor cover glass pieces being produced by Kodak. They would be fine upon installation and testing in Solms, then crack later following shipment or even a few weeks after normal use. Once Leica discovered the problem, they ceased production of both S2 and M9 while they worked through the issue with Kodak. When Kodak fixed the problem and started producing a new batch of sensors, production of cameras commenced. Any new camera shipped within the last several months should not have this problem. Perhaps the camera you first received was an off-demo or was sitting in inventory for a while.

As far as the lock-up problem, we haven't seen this with cameras we've delivered to customers. As Mark Gowin mentioned previously in this thread, he experienced something similar (but different in behavior). We quickly narrowed it down to a bad battery cell and, once replaced, all has been fine.

When we were giving a group demo at a college a few months ago, some photo students using their own cards experienced problems. These were the result of using very old and/or very cheap CF cards, all of which were non-UDMA. We put in our UDMA6 Transcend cards and all was good again. On the last shoot we did with Ocean Drive, the camera did become unresponsive after shooting a continuous burst of about 100 shots (over the course of 2 minutes or so). The CF access light was lit, but the shutter was frozen. I pulled the battery and reinserted it. Boot-up time on the S2 is 1/3 of a second. After that the camera was fine for the rest of the day (1200 images were taken). We'll call it a sub-1 second fix. I reported the incident to Germany but it is very tough to repeat those exact conditions.

So, like Mark, I'd be curious about the battery and for myself, what memory card you were using (and if you tried various CF cards).

Often, it is small things that are easy to fix that appear to be larger, more catastrophic issues. Certainly, when you are in the moment, you want to have confidence in your chosen camera system and any problem, no matter how easy to fix, seems like a major one.

I'm happy to help troubleshoot further if you want. Sorry again the S2 didn't work out for you.

David

Thank you David, appreciate your input.

I did change out CF cards prior to the second lock-up incident. Both were 16 gig SanDisk Extreme IV UDMA CFs. Not the latest thing, but not old either.

I did try "rebooting" the camera by removing the battery with no joy.

As mentioned in another post later, I was going to try to sort out the battery possibility by isolating the one that was in the camera when it locked up, and then using a new one right out of the box that I have. Unfortunately, I can't replicate the shooting conditions because the weather warmed up to 45º. Both incidences of lock-up occurred in 20º temperatures.

It is supposed to get down to 25º tomorrow, and if it does I'll give it a go, since inquiring minds want to know. I don't have to ship it back until next week.

-Marc

 

[David K]

If a car was beautiful, and "ergonomic," and handled well, but was unreliable and very expensive, would you buy one to use for daily driving or a long trip?

The answer is yes, a lot of people do... and they're called Jaguars I think you'd need a lot more information than we have available here to label the S2 as unreliable. Unless it's a systemic problem... and it doesn't appear that it is, I think the most you can fairly say is that the camera Marc has is unreliable.