S2 Impressions: A year later.

[fotografz]

90 days for "Platinum Service"? That's a joke. The Hasselblad and Phase One extended hot swap warranties are three years. If Leica really believes in the S2 and wants to develop a market for it with photographers that aren't going to use it as the equivalent of a Louis Vuitton handbag, they should offer a full three year hot swap at no extra charge.

That is misleading as I understand it. Hot-Swap doesn't replace the camera with a new one. It gets an equivalent camera/back into your hands while your camera is being repaired.

The Leica Platinum Service replaces the camera with a new one during the first 3 months of ownership, and offers hot swap coverage for the remainder of 2 years. My only issue with Leica's plan was that it should have been three years, and while premium priced, should have been a little closer in cost to the other makers rather than two or three times as much for only 2 years ... especially initially.

-Marc

 

[PeterA]

I am sorry hear that ( at this stage) you have decided the S2 isnt quite ready judging by your experiences Mac.

I have to say that I am not surprised though - the S2 seems to be in late beta testing phase trials at the moment..

It took two iterations of the same design and a few firmware upgrades to get the Hy6 running to spec - about three years worth of less than perfect working and a lot of angst in between ( given ownership/production and parts issues)

Leica in developing the S2 are on a a bit of an Odyssey with the beta testing early adopters strapped hard on to the ship's mast ( via high price commitment ) whilst enjoying the siren song of promise and going through the associated agonies and ecstasies that accompany such journeys.

Homer underlined the virtue of patience continuously through out his epic poem - a long moral play.

When the system is bug free - it will be an interesting option for many. May the time come sooner rather than later - life is to short for too much angst.

 

[fotografz]

joe btfsplk, eh, marc. that ought to date us.

http://www.lil-abner.com/other.html

Yep, that was exactly the reference.

-Marc

 

[David K]

However, I did enough research off-forum, as well as on various other forums, to give it the benefit of doubt ... as in, I seriously doubt it is wide-spread.
-Marc

And yet a large number of folks come away from this thread with the conclusion that the S2 is not ready for prime time.

 

[xpixel]

When the system is bug free - it will be an interesting option for many.

Is there a digital MF cam which is bugfree...

 

[dfarkas]

That is misleading as I understand it. Hot-Swap doesn't replace the camera with a new one. It gets an equivalent camera/back into your hands while your camera is being repaired.

The Leica Platinum Service replaces the camera with a new one during the first 3 months of ownership, and offers hot swap coverage for the remainder of 2 years. My only issue with Leica's plan was that it should have been three years, and while premium priced, should have been a little closer in cost to the other makers rather than two or three times as much for only 2 years ... especially initially.

-Marc

Thanks for the clarification.

For most people, the Premium Service Package on a "regular" S2 is a better deal. It gives the same exact coverage for 2 years that the Platinum does, but without a shutter replacement. So, you'd still get the 90-day new unit hot-swap replacement and the loaner service during any repair period after that. The cost is $1595 for two years. This is the same price as Hasselblad's 1 year extension plan. I'm not sure what the exact cost of a Phase One Value Added Warranty is.

So, unless you are a rental house, or a 24/7/365 shooter, the Platinum might be overkill. The shutter replacement allows the owner to send the camera in for a brand new FP shutter after 100,000 actuations. This effectively extends the life of the camera and doesn't require the shutter to be broken. Similarly, a Platinum Package on CS lenses ($995) allows for a leaf shutter replacement. This could be quite valuable for busy rental operations to extend the longevity of rental gear. For the same coverage minus shutter replacement on lenses, the Premium costs $495.

Also, on the S2P, you are paying a premium for the sapphire glass LCD, so factor that in to the additional cost over an S2.

David

 

[fotografz]

And yet a large number of folks come away from this thread with the conclusion that the S2 is not ready for prime time.

Well David, one would hope others can think for themselves.

For me, there was enough evidence to warrant giving it another whirl a year after my first encounter with the S2.

Doing this sort of run through isn't my idea of fun, nor does it make me one more penny. Life is too short.

Not my fault that the camera(s) didn't work out. Just bad luck maybe. Who knows?

The question is ... if it works do you sing its praises, and if it doesn't do you tape your mouth closed?

Personally, I hate it when anyone reports unwarranted issues ... 90% of the time they are user errors "emotionally" attributed to the camera company ... then solved ... but by then the horses are out of the barn.

This is NOT the case here. I did a LOT of due diligence over the past few weeks, and found satisfactory answers to many of my concerns or mis-understandings. That's the value of these forums, especially this one. However, you have to publish the issues to find the answers. If people choose to read only the issues and skip the solutions, then it seems they are looking for a reason to not commit ... and it's just as well that they don't ... or they are detractors looking for any excuse to discount what they don't have ... what's new about that?

I'm confident there are no answers to the issues with this specific camera other than replacing it. I've done everything I can, know how to do, or was suggested here.

Such is life.

-Marc

 

[GMB]

I am sorry hear that ( at this stage) you have decided the S2 isnt quite ready judging by your experiences Mac.

I have to say that I am not surprised though - the S2 seems to be in late beta testing phase trials at the moment..

Leica in developing the S2 are on a a bit of an Odyssey with the beta testing early adopters strapped hard on to the ship's mast ( via high price commitment ) whilst enjoying the siren song of promise and going through the associated agonies and ecstasies that accompany such journeys.

Homer underlined the virtue of patience continuously through out his epic poem - a long moral play.

When the system is bug free - it will be an interesting option for many. May the time come sooner rather than later - life is to short for too much angst.

Let me add my 2c from the point of view of a MFDB newbie and (serious?) amateur who is considering the S2.

I had a demo from a dealer for a whole weekend in June. I took about 250 shots (it would have been more with better weather and light and without my mother in law and my father visiting during that very same weekend). Camera worked without any problems; no bugs no nothing.

Camera was easy to use--the dealer did not have a manual and I downloaded one from the internet but only looked up one thing.

I had a surprisingly high amount of keepers, despite the difficult light.

Today I printed one shot of my daughter on a large printer (85x85cm). The shot was taken in fading evening light (1/60 sec at f 2.8 at ISO 160) handheld. Focus was spot on. I did very little PP other than tranforming to B&W and the print looks really great (I am sure one could do much more with the file). It's a different ball game than the M9, at least for large prints. Also, this was about shot No 30 I took with the camera, and I am sure that I could get more out of that beast with some exercise--and it was a head and shoulder shot with the 70mm and not the new 120mm.

So I think the IQ is there--may be not superior than the Hassie of Phase competition, but clearly in the same league. And I did not hear anyone complain about the lenses. I also understood that Marc was happy with the IQ--and the overall handling of the camera.

The only IQ issue I experienced was collar fringing, with a couple of motor cycle shots. I was able to address them with C4.

It may be that the system--being fairly young--still has more bugs than Hassi or Phase. However, for someone like me who is not invested in any MF system so far, the question would be whether to invest in one of these more mature systems, to go for the S2, or simply wait. If one (1) in principle prefers the form factor and ergonomics of the S2, (2) has confidence that Leica will sort things out, sooner or later, and (3) does not need a MFD system right away, going for Phase or Hassi now makes little sens. As others have pointed out, the investment is in the glass (I recall that ptomsu mentioned in this or another thread that he may chance to the S2 if only he could get a decent price for his Hassi). The choice is then between wait or buy now.

I have no idea where I will be coming out, but I found this thread actually encouraging to go for the S2. Clearly, the failure of Marc's camera was annoying--to say the least--but it seems that he was really unlucky. **** happens with every system, and if individual horror stories would determine by purchase decisions, I would be sitting naked in a cave:ROTFL: (I also would not be married and not have kids.). What would concern me would be widespread reports about camera failures etc., but I have not heard about them

Anyway, thanks to all who contributed to this debate.

 

[Bob]

Lurking....
I am just waiting for all the bad luck to get shaken out before I pounce on one of these
-bob

oh, yeah, and maybe the new improved version too.

 

[Valentin]

...
I had a demo from a dealer for a whole weekend in June. I took about 250 shots (it would have been more with better weather and light and without my mother in law and my father visiting during that very same weekend). Camera worked without any problems; no bugs no nothing....

It seems that Marc had problems in low temperatures. You tested the camera in June. So, unless you live in a tropical area, you definitely need to test your gear in the same environments you will be using it.

And the problem was repeatable, not some odd occurrence.

 

[Geoff]

FWIW - the issues with this camera seem a lot less than what some of us M8 users went through. Of course, this is now about 5 years later, and 4-5 x the price, so it should be better. Having held one of these for about 15 minutes, the best I could do was run away before it became too hard to let loose.

 

[GMB]

It seems that Marc had problems in low temperatures. You tested the camera in June. So, unless you live in a tropical area, you definitely need to test your gear in the same environments you will be using it.

And the problem was repeatable, not some odd occurrence.

And Kurt was shooting his S2 for 2 hours at 15 degrees... And Marc was saying himself that the problem was apparently not related to the cold.

All I am saying is that I had no problem. I am not denying that there are issues, but I think one needs to put matters into perspective...and I am the first to admit that the perspective will be different for each of us.

 

[doug]

... Having held one of these for about 15 minutes, the best I could do was run away before it became too hard to let loose.

I don't dare look through the viewfinder :ROTFL:

 

[JPlomley]

I evaluated the S2 in the spring for three weeks in Olympic National Park. Rain almost every day and chilling tempertures. I shot about 2800 frames and did not have a single problem. I took no precautions with the camera as part of my evaluation was to determine just how well it could stand up to these sorts of conditions. I had the 35/70/180mm lenses and all performed beyond my expectations. The only reason I have not purchased is that I am waiting for something wider than a 35mm, and am hoping for at least one tilt/shift lens and a zoom. Until that happens, I will continue shooting 4x5 with my Arca Swiss and drum scanning. But I suspect a year from now the S2 will be ready for prime time...or would that be an S3?

 

[woodyspedden]

Wonderful, the S2 has potential. Perhaps. And will it still be a competitive product when its potential is realized?

If a car was beautiful, and "ergonomic," and handled well, but was unreliable and very expensive, would you buy one to use for daily driving or a long trip?

I can't afford a Ferrari! LOL

Woody

 

[johnnygoesdigital]

In reading David Farkas' response to Marc, I'm surprised that he would not at least try a new S2 model to determine if this is, in fact, a manufacturing or part defect or just rough shipping in transit. It's surprising how many of us are following this like a soap opera, as if this one particular camera issue will decide our future purchase decisions for the S2. Are you kidding? Many, many, more people are reporting how good this cameras is in adverse weather conditions, studio, location, etc. With all due respect to Marc, there's photographers on safari's riding horseback for hours with no issues with the S2 at all. Why aren't there 5 page threads about that? I had the chance to demo an S2 and I loved it! I did experience back focus with the AF, but if you override with manual focus, problem solved! I think the back focus issue is either a calibration or AF sensor area-sensitivity problem, whereas, it seems the AF point finds something else in the crosshairs when ambient light is low. The well lit portraits were always right on! Yes, I want more selective ISO settings, and I found fringing only when I went pixel peeping. I do think all this will be addressed in firmware updates as all this information is dissected by Leica. Side by side comparisons of my H4D and S2 files with no manipulation, are hard to tell apart other than the aspect ratio being slightly different. In fact, a slight edge goes to Leica glass. Regarding trust in MFD, I'm on my 3rd "H" model in a year, but I still think Hasselblad is a fantastic product, I'm only considering the S2 because it does more to match my style than an H4.
Try this camera for yourself and make an informed decision's based on personal experience. I'm sure other MFD companies are already designing similar models to compete with Leica. Hat's off to an outstanding product!

 

[docmoore]

I'm surprised that he would not at least try a new S2 model to determine if this is, in fact, a manufacturing or part defect or just rough shipping in transit.

With all respect to those present...

Seems like a few of us are unaware of our relative positions in the hierarchy of photo user/ photographers/ professionals who post in this forum.

To wit...

Marc has a very deep history and knowledge which few of us can match...from the Contax N1 Digital through all sorts of newer analog to digital scanning and MF Digital backs he has chronicled a long trail of information and history. None of it lacks dimension nor depth. When Marc posts his findings they are without question definitive for the majority of us who have traveled similar paths.

I would suggest that S2P's are not routinely used as demos...no one in their right mind would use one other than as a high end product for sale. He had TWO defective samples...suggestive that Leica still needs to get their corporate act together in my opinion. And I have been using Leica M's for 30 plus years...had three M8(.2)s and while I had few issues they were but a shadow of the analog cameras with respect to integrity and build quality.

I suspect that a certain fatigue is involved in the decisions made concerning the continued saga of Looking for Mr Right (S2P!). It may be a great camera for those whose luck favors a good sample...however at this level I posit that Six Sigma quality is required!

Just a few thoughts...no need to rebut.:thumbup:

Bob

 

[Valentin]

...With all due respect to Marc, there's photographers on safari's riding horseback for hours with no issues with the S2 at all. Why aren't there 5 page threads about that?...

John(I'm assuming that's your name),

Respect is earned. I have no idea who those photographers are. Heck, many times I don't even know who the people that post in here are (most of you don't have a web site in your profile). You could be just a casual user that stopped by or an experienced photographer and even more experienced using MFDB. Without credentials, why would someone write 5 pages about some unknown photographer experience?

Marc has a tracking record and you can look him up and look at his work and make a decision if to put weight on his words or not.

 

[fotografz]

In reading David Farkas' response to Marc, I'm surprised that he would not at least try a new S2 model to determine if this is, in fact, a manufacturing or part defect or just rough shipping in transit. It's surprising how many of us are following this like a soap opera, as if this one particular camera issue will decide our future purchase decisions for the S2. Are you kidding? Many, many, more people are reporting how good this cameras is in adverse weather conditions, studio, location, etc. With all due respect to Marc, there's photographers on safari's riding horseback for hours with no issues with the S2 at all. Why aren't there 5 page threads about that? I had the chance to demo an S2 and I loved it! I did experience back focus with the AF, but if you override with manual focus, problem solved! I think the back focus issue is either a calibration or AF sensor area-sensitivity problem, whereas, it seems the AF point finds something else in the crosshairs when ambient light is low. The well lit portraits were always right on! Yes, I want more selective ISO settings, and I found fringing only when I went pixel peeping. I do think all this will be addressed in firmware updates as all this information is dissected by Leica. Side by side comparisons of my H4D and S2 files with no manipulation, are hard to tell apart other than the aspect ratio being slightly different. In fact, a slight edge goes to Leica glass. Regarding trust in MFD, I'm on my 3rd "H" model in a year, but I still think Hasselblad is a fantastic product, I'm only considering the S2 because it does more to match my style than an H4.
Try this camera for yourself and make an informed decision's based on personal experience. I'm sure other MFD companies are already designing similar models to compete with Leica. Hat's off to an outstanding product!

All due respect indeed.

I do agree that a couple of experiences doesn't make for a pattern ... just a caution.

Back focusing is being reported by enough people (including you) to warrant a caution. Frankly, if I wanted a manual focus camera I'd buy one. As Lloyd chambers mentioned, it reduces the effectiveness of the superb optics. Also reports like this ...

http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-forum/leica-s2-forum/158865-focusing-issues.html

If people are going on Safari and riding horseback with a S2, and want to post 5 pages on their experiences they are free to do so.

I directly tested the S2 with LR3 against my H4D/40 using Phocus & DAC ... and also found the IQ results were comparable ... when the S2 was in critical focus they had an ever so slight edge ... but the color from Phocus beats LR by a mile. However, these two cameras are in different price brackets: Currently $19K with a 35-90, verses $27K with a 70mm. For $27K I can get a H4D/50 with an even larger sensor, so the relative enlargement ratio would be even greater when comparing. So IQ isn't the differentiator, the form factor and weather proofing is ... and that is the draw of the S2.

All I can say about the lenses is check the ones you get. My buddy Irakly just tested a S120/4 macro which exhibited unexpected amounts of CA ... his Contax 120/4 and Phase One back was better corrected. Again, one man's experience merely offers a caution, not a condemnation.

Look before you leap, and if it all checks out ... go for it. :thumbs:

-Marc

 

[Guy Mancuso]

Lets get this reminder back out here on a Pro definition. There are no excuses , no reason to continue with any product good , bad or indifferent when you are a working Pro with literally your neck on the line regardless of what name tag is on anything. You simply do NOT EVER take any risk on any product that is suspect or is not functioning correctly at any given point. Regardless of how many love stories are reported it is the Pro's reputation and possibly a 100 k or more a year client on the line. It's like playing with rat poison around you dinner table , no one in there right mind is going to risk that as a working Pro. This goes with any system and worse when there is a system without a true backup ala another S2 on hand. Let me please remind this whole forum that leica has a track record of issues with every high end digital cam it has come out with DMR,M8,M9 and now the S2. How many Canons / Nikon/ Sony/Phase/Hassy/Sinar and others can anyone say has this consistency of products released back to back that have had some kind of issue. i will tell you , none. Sure some models have had bad issues but not back to back as leica and there best was the DMR made by Imacon. Are they getting better yes but we still see these issues. I don't care how much you love them or hate them the facts are staring at you and stop dismissing them. All your doing is letting this go on as acceptable. Sorry this is not acceptable. Now if you want to take the risk that is entirely up to the individual but at least go in eyes wide open. Sure it is a nice cam , love to have one myself. But i will not risk my career over it or even one image as a working Pro or any system for that matter. **** will happen no doubt but as a Pro one lowers those risk factors.

In Marcs defense he did exactly what i would expect and i would have immediately done exactly the same thing. Walk away. Neither one of us cares about any name brand we just want as bullet proof as we can get. I said this since day one the S2 needs to mature as a system, problem is it's been awhile since release and these bugs and issues should NOT be there. We can't sit here and make excuses that does not get things fixed and back on balance.

Please don't take offense to this post but as a working Pro there are no acceptable excuses that I will accept from anyone when it comes to my career being in the balance with regards to working gear. It has to work at least you have to have that mindset when buying in this category of photography and i am sure many serious hobbyist think the same way when they spend all this money go on a huge trip the gear has to work. Just apply that cracked sensor to a aircraft as a engine failing. That is how you should be looking at this from a Pros seat. It is mission critical and you have no idea how many other shooters are crawling up our butts to replace us in the industry with our big clients. There is no risk reward factor here. We are already getting outstanding image quality in other MF systems. I will never say there is no break downs and work arounds but product out of the gate that is suspect not many Pros will risk it. The S2 sorry folks just this thread alone makes it suspect. Ignore it if you want that is totally your decision but to question others that will not ignore it is flat out wrong. Marc did what any smart Pro would do walk. The stories it worked perfectly fine for me are truly meaningless when your sitting there with a handful of DOA in your hands.