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S2 Impressions: A year later.

Now if you want to take the risk that is entirely up to the individual but at least go in eyes wide open. Sure it is a nice cam , love to have one myself. But i will not risk my career over it or even one image as a working Pro or any system for that matter. **** will happen no doubt but as a Pro one lowers those risk factors.
I don't want to push this thread farther away from the discussion about the S2, but I don't think Guy's post can be emphasized strongly enough. We all want the best quality. We are all gear obsessed. We all want a camera that will give our vision an edge that is beyond expectations. However, at the end of the day, all we really need is to get the shot and deliver it to our client. Every working pro has had the horrific, sinking feeling of a camera going down when it mattered most and no one wants to experience that again.

The people reading this thread hanging on Marc's every word are not people considering a Leica S2 and wondering what a pro thinks -- they have all tried one and decided for themselves. The people reading this thread with the magnifying glass are those bitten by Leica -- addicted to the feel and image quality, scared by the reliability. The Cadillac commercial asks "When you turn on your car, does it return the favor," but the question here is when you turn on your camera, does it turn on? As a working pro, the most expensive camera in the world is the one that costs you a client. As Marc so wisely said, three strikes and you are out of business.
 

johnnygoesdigital

New member
Bob,
If you consider some photographers to be ranked above others according to status or authority, then you just proved my point. If, as you say, this hierarchy does exist, then many will make decisions based on their placement in this, so called chain of command.



Valentin, I could not find your website either. I'm not questioning Marc's record, I admittedly scan over most other comments to get to his because of this "respect" that we all apparently share. It was because of this thread that I almost postponed an S2 purchase even though the camera did what I needed it to do. Marc wasn't throwing out reams of empirical evidence, he didn't have to, the camera didn't work. I have never questioned the issues experienced by his S2, but this anomaly has a decidedly more emotional interpretation for some of us following here. I have never owned a Leica, so I can be objective in my choice of gear and not a fanatical Leicabot. But I have had 3 Hasselblad "H" models in less than a year. Everything from erratic messages, camera freezes, mirror locked up, secondary shutter getting stuck, viewfinder replacement, pieces of solder actually rolling around in the camera! A few months after my purchase the same "H" model as equipped, was thousands less! I did not switch camera companies because of a lack of trust. The gear was fixed and replacements sent... I love my H4D! I just thought the S2 deserved another shoot because like it or not, this camera fills a void that most MFD cannot touch (sorry Guy).

Marc, thanks for being the sane one. I do not doubt the apprehension you feel, we are all professionals well, some of us anyway, and perhaps i'm guilty too...because I REALLY WANT YOU TO LIKE THIS CAMERA, so I can buy one too.
 

KeithL

Well-known member
Bob,
I do not doubt the apprehension you feel, we are all professionals well, some of us anyway, and perhaps i'm guilty too...because I REALLY WANT YOU TO LIKE THIS CAMERA, so I can buy one too.
Now, that has to be the most bizarre response I've ever seen.
 

fotografz

Well-known member
Bob,
If you consider some photographers to be ranked above others according to status or authority, then you just proved my point. If, as you say, this hierarchy does exist, then many will make decisions based on their placement in this, so called chain of command.



Valentin, I could not find your website either. I'm not questioning Marc's record, I admittedly scan over most other comments to get to his because of this "respect" that we all apparently share. It was because of this thread that I almost postponed an S2 purchase even though the camera did what I needed it to do. Marc wasn't throwing out reams of empirical evidence, he didn't have to, the camera didn't work. I have never questioned the issues experienced by his S2, but this anomaly has a decidedly more emotional interpretation for some of us following here. I have never owned a Leica, so I can be objective in my choice of gear and not a fanatical Leicabot. But I have had 3 Hasselblad "H" models in less than a year. Everything from erratic messages, camera freezes, mirror locked up, secondary shutter getting stuck, viewfinder replacement, pieces of solder actually rolling around in the camera! A few months after my purchase the same "H" model as equipped, was thousands less! I did not switch camera companies because of a lack of trust. The gear was fixed and replacements sent... I love my H4D! I just thought the S2 deserved another shoot because like it or not, this camera fills a void that most MFD cannot touch (sorry Guy).

Marc, thanks for being the sane one. I do not doubt the apprehension you feel, we are all professionals well, some of us anyway, and perhaps i'm guilty too...because I REALLY WANT YOU TO LIKE THIS CAMERA, so I can buy one too.
Heck, I wanted the S2 to work for me more than anyone here. I DO like the camera a LOT. No question about it.

BTW, I honestly do not think there is a ranking of folks here on GetDpi, nor a cliquishness ... way too many independent thinkers for that to ever happen :ROTFL:

There ARE a lot of photographers with a ton of experience to share ... and perhaps no where is that more important than with the lesser wide-spread arena of MFD as more people consider kicking it up a notch. Frankly, I follow many of their posts as intently as others follow mine. Ya learn something every day here :thumbup:

Personally, this is not "my first trip to the rodeo"... I've owned 16 different configurations of MFD, including 7 iterations of the HD system ... 8 when the H4D/60 arrives. And as much as I obviously like the H kit, I'm not sure I would have been as patient as you regarding 3 "shoot stopping" defects in less than a year from a relatively mature system. All of these companies need their feet held to the fire regarding quality and reliability.

However, Phase One, Leaf, and Hasselblad have pretty long track records of delivering on the firing line. Not a perfect record, but enough to build the trust required to put your A$$ on the line with one. In addition, for many years as an Art Director, my career was linked to Phase One and Hassey equipment by one degree of separation ... it wasn't lost on me that these were the choices the photographer selected when huge production budgets were at risk.

As Guy and others have pointed out, Leica's move into digital has been a fitful one. Frankly, I wouldn't trust my livelihood to my M9s which is why I have two of them and the Sony A900 in the car just in case. Like others, I love the images so much I'm willing to shell out for two cameras ... (some people have 3 to be sure they have 2). Not a pleasant purchase scenario for a $23K+ camera.

In the end, we all have to keep this in perspective regarding MFD ... we are talking about cameras that cost 10 times as much as a Canon 5D-II or Sony A900. 10 times!

Our expectations should be high and uncompromising ... only in that way will the makers of the gear toe the line.

BTW, to their credit, Leica IS replacing the camera regardless of the fact that I will be sending it back.

-Marc

What this comes down to is ... do not buy a "pig in a poke". No matter what anyone says or who says it, good or bad ... try before you buy, and make sure it can be returned if it's a dud. If it is your only MFD kit, then pony up for the Premium warranty ... which should be included with all of these MFD cameras IMHO.
 

David K

Workshop Member
Yesterday was my first opportunity to do a real shoot (about 400 images) with the S2. Aside from a few operator errors the camera performed without a glitch. Focusing, both manual and AF were spot on with the 70mm lens... even shooting into the sun for some flare shots where I couldn't see the model's face to focus were handled by the AF with no problem. The other big plus for me, coming from the Sinar, is that I was actually able to see whether I nailed focus on the LCD. A quick press of the play button and wheel and I was zoomed in right where I wanted to be. Nice not to have to relegate the LCD to a histo only role. Taking a series of shots only to find out that they were all OOF when you get back to the computer is a thing of the past for me.

One series of shots involved a model walking around a paddock with a horse. This would normally have been Nikon territory for me... no way I would have grabbed my Sinar/Hy6 for this kind of thing... but the S2 worked just fine for it.

I have no doubt that better shooters than I could have done the same with other MF kits. But this added versatility is what attracted me to the S2 in the first place. It won't take the place of my Nikon for shooting fast moving subjects that require instantaneous AF but the S2 does expand my opportunity to shoot MF.

One final comment which has been made by others on numerous occasions. There is no substitute for having a good dealer who knows the kit inside and out. On the one occasion when it seemed that the aperture was stuck a quick call to David F's cell phone had me up and running in seconds. The Leica S2 is expensive... good dealer support is priceless.
 

jlm

Workshop Member
another perspective:
marc could have continued replacing camera bodies until he got one that worked,and you might say, problem solved. However, his experience points to the fact that, even if you do get a good one, there is a likelihood any needed replacement will be problematic and I think there lies the larger problem
 

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
From Marc:
Our expectations should be high and uncompromising ... only in that way will the makers of the gear toe the line.

This is the real bottom line and one reason forums such as these are important it gets the message out. Not many people speak up enough in this area and this is about ALL systems and how important this thread is as well as it not only showed Marcs issues it showed X- Pixels as well. I worked with Leica for a long time on the DMR , M8 and some M9 stuff and this stuff needs to brought up so they and others in the making of these cams realize what is going on in the field . Sitting back and accepting issues without letting everyone know is not helping anyone and it is not helping Leica in this case. I review a lot of this stuff and the messages are loud and clear on what improvements can be made and what maybe wrong. In this case I know Leica wants to know as well as if Hassy or Phase was running into this they would also. It is there reputation and sales on the line. They will correct the immediate issue as they should but will look into the back end to see what it is causing it as well so when the next guy pony's up to the bar these issues can be remedied. Obviously for some people waiting for repair or replacements may not be a big deal and can accept issues. For others not a chance but even if you don't have that immediate need you need to care about the industry and the industry professionals that rely on this to make a living. I am very very passionate about this industry at large and I have a voice and will use it to the best advantage to correct the state of affairs to make product better and more bullet proof. I encourage everyone to use there voice and be heard because if they don't know things will just go along with being acceptable. Its like releasing software with bugs in it, no different here folks. Be a positive influence on making this industry we love better not a negative one and just whining about it. Threads like this are a positive even if it did not work out for Marc in this case it gives the OEM a chance to look at something that may have been missed in the production, quality assurance area's and other area's as well so this does not come up again. This is actually a positive for Leica they know they have to hear the issues at hand in the field to improve. I always liked Leica product but for me to move back in or anyone else they know they have to get more bullet proof. Sure this can be a very rare case but it makes the product suspect and that is not what they or us the end user want. Have a great morning everyone and please look at this as a positive for all concerned even though it did not work out it may later down the road.
 

Mike M

New member
If somebody is making a living with cameras and can't afford a backup then he probably isn't making enough money to justify an expensive system. I've always had 2 or three of everything since starting my own business and it's just something to consider before buying each piece of gear. As an assistant, I worked for photographers that didn't have good backups so they would usually rent for the bigger jobs. Leica isn't particularly bad at quality control or customer service and are actually really good when compared to some of the other higher end companies (especially lighting etc.) A business owner has to imagine that everything is going to go wrong. This is as true for photography as any other business. The weather is going to suck. The luggage is going to get lost. THe power is going to go out. The model is going to get sick. The makeup is going to be late. etc....So if a person is concerned that his business is going to go down if an S2 has a problem then that's the wrong system to be in and he should get 2 of something cheaper. Any camera is gonna go down sooner or later...just plan on it... Even if the camera works flawlessly it's still going to get smashed by an assistant or stolen or something.
 

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
Funny you mention that Mike . I have a gig in LA and besides my backups i have mapped out my drive to Samy's camera already just in case the mud hits the fan. You are so correct sooner or later you will be standing in a pile of hurt and better be prepared to react quickly to it. Take the least path of resistance.
 

fotografz

Well-known member
If somebody is making a living with cameras and can't afford a backup then he probably isn't making enough money to justify an expensive system. I've always had 2 or three of everything since starting my own business and it's just something to consider before buying each piece of gear. As an assistant, I worked for photographers that didn't have good backups so they would usually rent for the bigger jobs. Leica isn't particularly bad at quality control or customer service and are actually really good when compared to some of the other higher end companies (especially lighting etc.) A business owner has to imagine that everything is going to go wrong. This is as true for photography as any other business. The weather is going to suck. The luggage is going to get lost. THe power is going to go out. The model is going to get sick. The makeup is going to be late. etc....So if a person is concerned that his business is going to go down if an S2 has a problem then that's the wrong system to be in and he should get 2 of something cheaper. Any camera is gonna go down sooner or later...just plan on it... Even if the camera works flawlessly it's still going to get smashed by an assistant or stolen or something.
I have more than two of everything Mike. However, I don't need two S2s ... I can use something else in its place ... like a H4D/60.

However, that's okay for studio work where the environment is somewhat repeatable ... the form factor of the S2 suggest a different form of shooting where spontaneous happenings don't repeat themselves. My back-up for that is a 35mm FF DSLR ... just like a lot of shooters doing that kind of work with a MFD kit.

I do agree that if it can go wrong, if often does ... and luck favors the prepared.

-Marc
 

johnnygoesdigital

New member
People have put a lot of expectations on MFD, and rightfully so. Forums are a good place to sort out this info, but as I was reading further into this thread, it seemed a company as a whole was being trounced. It's almost like some people wanted them to fail, and that's the emotional connection to MFD. I mean, if you bought and shoot with a certain MFD, then your emotionally connected no matter what. Then comes this amazing camera that fills a void that a lot of us could use, so I think it's human nature to jump on the bandwagon with torches and pitchforks because we don't want to feel like we missed out on something really cool. I am sure that Leica via David Farkas is heeding these forums, we are the focus groups and demographic they rely on. I think as a compromise, Leica should offer immediate replace of gear if needed and not charge extra for that. Get the faulty gear off the market and look for patterns in QC, or suppliers that ship faulty components. Be professional.
 

Valentin

New member
....

Valentin, I could not find your website either.

.....but this anomaly has a decidedly more emotional interpretation for some of us following here. I have never owned a Leica, so I can be objective in my choice of gear and not a fanatical Leicabot....

If you click on my name (left) you can see "visit Valentin's homepage".

It's true that some people are more "passionate" about everything and will have a more emotionally charged response/reaction, but that will not change the fact that there are plenty of problems with a $30K system. We are not talking chop change here. When you spend that kind of money, it better perform.
 

Scott Tansey

New member
This is a comment that agrees with Guy's comments about professional photographers. Years ago, I took a photo workshop with John Sexton. He explained to the group that he was an amateur photographer. He only took photos that he wanted to take. That comment got me thinking. I believe that amateurs can create images that are just as good as professional photographers. The main difference is that professional photographers can make great images on command of their clients. A professional gets the job done, no matter the circumstances. A professional photographer has no excuses not to get the job done. Period. No excuse for a bad day and no excuse for faulty equipment.

Scott
 

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
This is a comment that agrees with Guy's comments about professional photographers. Years ago, I took a photo workshop with John Sexton. He explained to the group that he was an amateur photographer. He only took photos that he wanted to take. That comment got me thinking. I believe that amateurs can create images that are just as good as professional photographers. The main difference is that professional photographers can make great images on command of their clients. A professional gets the job done, no matter the circumstances. A professional photographer has no excuses not to get the job done. Period. No excuse for a bad day and no excuse for faulty equipment.

Scott

Well said and I would probably used the word demand. LOL
 

jlm

Workshop Member
i prefer the word "Palladin: have camera, will travel", to distinguish the Guy from the Don Libby, Jim Collumn, who also make money from their work
 

ptomsu

Workshop Member
This is a comment that agrees with Guy's comments about professional photographers. Years ago, I took a photo workshop with John Sexton. He explained to the group that he was an amateur photographer. He only took photos that he wanted to take. That comment got me thinking. I believe that amateurs can create images that are just as good as professional photographers. The main difference is that professional photographers can make great images on command of their clients. A professional gets the job done, no matter the circumstances. A professional photographer has no excuses not to get the job done. Period. No excuse for a bad day and no excuse for faulty equipment.

Scott
You have to do your job right or you in most cases will not have a second (or a third) chance. So actually I do not understand what is so different about the way a professional photographer gets his job done or any other professional gets his (her) job done well.

End of the day these are all nice words, what really matters here is that the S system seems currently not up to the level which professional photographers require in general - right? All other are just excuses for a not so mature system. Whoever is willing to pay as much money for that is welcome to do so - good for Leica.

For me this is not what I would be willing to spend in this case. I would not do it for other products either - think of buying a car for €40.000.- and this suddenly stops on the highway and cannot be moved again - this thing would be gone in the twinkle of an eye for me! Same for the S System.
 

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
People have put a lot of expectations on MFD, and rightfully so. Forums are a good place to sort out this info, but as I was reading further into this thread, it seemed a company as a whole was being trounced. It's almost like some people wanted them to fail, and that's the emotional connection to MFD. I mean, if you bought and shoot with a certain MFD, then your emotionally connected no matter what. Then comes this amazing camera that fills a void that a lot of us could use, so I think it's human nature to jump on the bandwagon with torches and pitchforks because we don't want to feel like we missed out on something really cool. I am sure that Leica via David Farkas is heeding these forums, we are the focus groups and demographic they rely on. I think as a compromise, Leica should offer immediate replace of gear if needed and not charge extra for that. Get the faulty gear off the market and look for patterns in QC, or suppliers that ship faulty components. Be professional.
Honestly from my seat your reading it wrong , no one wants leica to fail. If anything we want them to exceed but they need to get over these issues with each new cam they come out with. I would love the S2 or S3 but how long does a person like me as a Pro have to wait to feel comfortable with them. I tested this a year ago and said lets look at it next year. Next year is here and I am still on pause mode. They simply need to up the game on these type of issues and they need to get lenses out. I can't even begin to think about this until a 24 hits the streets.

Now the part about being emotional tied into your purchase i have to disagree mostly. Sure there are some that certainly are no question but myself i wish mine did not even have a name on it and i have flipped systems on a dime for something I have thought may work better and a lot of us are like that. Trust me on my end there no emotion whatsoever , I do like my system and it does a great job for me and no real plans to switch it out and yes i do think it is a very good system or i would never have bought it but emotionally sorry I leave that part for my wife and kids. These are just tools to me to make money to feed my family. Sure I love certain things about the systems I buy and especially how the lenses give me the look I want but in all truth if it was not Phase i would be shooting Hassy and i still look at them all the time to see what they are up too as well as the S2. Most Pros buy completely different than the hobbyist and we have certain needs and wants as well. We think more about service, repair, dealer support and accessories plus backups where the hobbyists does not put much stock in that. So yes that is some of the differences between pro's and Hobbyists we buy for different needs even though they could be the same system.

Having leica in the MF world believe it or not is actually quite a good thing to push the technology further , be competitive and hopefully lower costs. I never want to see any of these companies do bad. It is not in the best interest to the industry what is the best interest is that they flourish and keep giving us new and better tools.
 
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