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S2 Impressions: A year later.

ptomsu

Workshop Member
Now the part about being emotional tied into your purchase i have to disagree mostly. Sure there are some that certainly are no question but myself i wish mine did not even have a name on it and i have flipped systems on a dime for something I have thought may work better and a lot of us are like that. Trust me on my end there no emotion whatsoever , I do like my system and it does a great job for me and no real plans to switch it out and yes i do think it is a very good system or i would never have bought it but emotionally sorry I leave that part for my wife and kids. These are just tools to me to make money to feed my family. Sure I love certain things about the systems I buy and especially how the lenses give me the look I want but in all truth if it was not Phase i would be shooting Hassy and i still look at them all the time to see what they are up too as well as the S2. Most Pros buy completely different than the hobbyist and we have certain needs and wants as well. We think more about service, repair, dealer support and accessories plus backups where the hobbyists does not put much stock in that. So yes that is some of the differences between pro's and Hobbyists we buy for different needs even though they could be the same system.
I could not agree more! Even not living form photography (so I cannot call myself a Pro ;)) does not mean I am getting emotional about systems. The only thing I am getting emotional is when I feel I am treated not right or somehow in the wrong way by a vendor and its products and support. As this was the case with Leica (but also some other vendors). Now do I feel bad about them - no! Just simply got more careful. And trust more the one's which did not let me down as often. But emotions? No there are no personal emotions.

I would say as a semi pro (yes I do make some money with photography, but do not need it for a living) I meanwhile am even more picky about a system and its qualities, simply because of one reason - I can just swap without thinking too long, especially because it does not matter if I swap, as I do not need it for a living. But I want to be satisfied with my choice. So finally this is even more aggressive as the way a pro would approach this. Because if I am not satisfied - bang, I simply swap. I do no longer waste my time with too much testing, upgrading, waiting etc. Just shoot, try to get out of a system whatever I expect and if it does not deliver it is gone!

Of course I do agree that his becomes harder as systems get more expensive - so there also comes long year experience into play with certain vendors and dealers. And then one can evaluate capabilities of a system and it's support pretty fast.

Good system stays, bad system goes - that's all - as simple! And nice words just mean nothing!!!!!!!!
 

fotografz

Well-known member
People have put a lot of expectations on MFD, and rightfully so. Forums are a good place to sort out this info, but as I was reading further into this thread, it seemed a company as a whole was being trounced. It's almost like some people wanted them to fail, and that's the emotional connection to MFD. I mean, if you bought and shoot with a certain MFD, then your emotionally connected no matter what. Then comes this amazing camera that fills a void that a lot of us could use, so I think it's human nature to jump on the bandwagon with torches and pitchforks because we don't want to feel like we missed out on something really cool. I am sure that Leica via David Farkas is heeding these forums, we are the focus groups and demographic they rely on. I think as a compromise, Leica should offer immediate replace of gear if needed and not charge extra for that. Get the faulty gear off the market and look for patterns in QC, or suppliers that ship faulty components. Be professional.
Not sure what you mean here. Perhaps there is a bit of a misinterpretation. Personally, my emotional connection is to the results, not what delivers them. Pretty simple transference actually ... if something helps me get the results I want, than I LOVE the thing, if it gets in the way or doesn't capture a look I want, then I HATE it ... and I do not care what name is plastered on it. I replaced a Nikon D3X with a Sony A900 @ 1/3 the price for that reason.

I sure the hell don't want Leica to fail ... I want a M10 with 30 meg someday :)

I wasn't jumping on any bandwagon ... for or against ... I have the camera and was about to buy it ... then not (see above) ;)

-Marc
 

KurtKamka

Subscriber Member
Guy's always had a soft-spot for Leica. If I remember right, he even had a dog named Leica a few years ago. That being said, if the dog won't hunt, it's time to find a new dog.

I'm having a blast with the S2 and am very happy with my choice, but if I would've had the same issues that Marc had, I probably would have instead pulled the trigger on a H4D-50 that I had gotten to second base with.

Like Guy mentioned, any innovations (true focus), form factor advancements, price (pentax), etc. have to be welcomed by anyone interested in large sensor photography.
 

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
Thanks Kurt. I do have a soft spot for leica always have and this stuff kills me that I have to get hard on them. But worse is folks taking my comments in a negative way far from it. I am just a very vocal person and want them to get it under control right off the bat. I deeply care about this industry and any influence I have in it, I will continue to push all the OEMs to give us better product. I wish more would work in a positive way to accomish this. But you have to be tough and not roll over and accept excuses. No room for it in this high end market.
 

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
Thanks Tim these kinds of threads can get downright nasty sometimes and as part owner of this place we took a thread that certainly could have went in the wrong direction but I believe gave us all a little more wisdom about choices that we make and how to steer yourself in the right directions and also understand how different people think on these very delicate buy decisions. First i give all the folks on this thread a lot of credit and a special credit to Marc for getting involved in the first place, I know he is disappointed as i have had PM's with him for sure but we all learned and hopefully Leica took a clue here as well as other OEMs that we will not accept issues. At least minimize them as much as humanely possible. If they realize WE as end users will not accept it than they will have to address it. It's just forcing there hand and too much competition between themselves not to do there very best and that is for all these systems.
 

doug

Well-known member
... i give all the folks on this thread a lot of credit and a special credit to Marc for getting involved in the first place, I know he is disappointed as i have had PM's with him for sure but we all learned and hopefully Leica took a clue here as well as other OEMs that we will not accept issues. At least minimize them as much as humanely possible. If they realize WE as end users will not accept it than they will have to address it. It's just forcing there hand and too much competition between themselves not to do there very best and that is for all these systems.
As an admitted S2 fan and maybe someday purchaser I appreciate the depth and tone of the entire discussion, and I fully respect Marc's position and decision to return the camera. As an enthusiatic amateur I'd have the luxury of wasting time going back-and-forth with the dealer to try sorting out the problems but if I were in Marc's position having to satisfy clients and pay bills not having 100% confidence in the equipment is a deal-killer. Thanks Marc, Guy and everyone else who has contributed to this thread.

Is there a 12-step program for me?
 

D&A

Well-known member
It's important for all of us putting equipment though it's paces, especially if it's on the line for a paying job, to be straight forward with our findings.....not to either sugar coat problems nor lambast the manufacturer when we know it's their intent is to honestly represent the capabilities of their product. I think this positively serves potential purchasers as well as the manufacturer in the long run. I know like others first hand when a important piece of equipment fails without notice and there is no chance for a "do over". Happened to me at the beginning of a pre-concert ceremony for a branch of the armed forces, that a newly released pro body locked up. A battery pull momentarily solved the issue only to happen again repeatedly. Cause of issue never resolved. Sure, I had a back-up body, but barely time to repeatedly switch to the required lens between the two bodies. That was enough for me to shortly thereafter address this with the manufacturer and send the body back. No chance I would attempt to use that model again for another year. I also heard later on I wasn't the only one who had experienced repeated lock ups with that particular body. It's a sinking feeling when it happens and your reputation is on the line...quite different when shooting casually or for personal use.

I can fully appreciate and respect the varying opinions on how each of us would handle the issues Marc encountered and it's usually dictated not only by expectations and our tolerance for such issues developing in expensive equipment, but most of all the level of comfort and confidence that each one of us has when our name and reputation and the job at hand may be on the line.

I echo Guy's opinion that for the most part, this has been a very civil and informative discussion, even where everyone may not see eye to eye on each issue and I know what I have gleamed from reading the posts, certainly has greatly helped in my perspectives of the S2 system. Thanks.

Dave (D&A)
 
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David K

Workshop Member
Is there a 12-step program for me?
Sorry Doug but there are no steps on a slippery slope :) The best you can do is not to take the first step.

It's a shame that Marc's camera had issues. It sounded like a good functioning S2 would have fit the bill for some of his needs.
 

tbullock

Member
(First post!)

I really appreciate threads like this, because especially at this price level, it really helps me get my head around the risks/benefits of a purchase. So, thanks Marc for letting us all in on the ups and downs over the past week. I went through the M8 and M9 QC fiascos--my M9 arrived with an out-of-whack viewfinder display--and I completely understand Marc's decision to give up on the Leica for now.

I do think that Marc and Guy's status on these forums can contribute to a sort of groupthink on new products because there just isn't much else out there to base decisions on. In many ways, that's a good thing because it can potentially save us all $$$ and headaches. But in this case, and others I'm sure, people, including me, can tend to feel that because Guy and Marc are unhappy with Leica, we should be too. But, as Marc has pointed out, I don't think we should make Marc's defective bodies into more than they are; statistically, he was just unlucky. Maybe we can make a broader assumption if we add in the earlier sensor cover issue, reports from other reviewers of stuck aperture blades and focus issues. Certainly for pros with a limited budget, I'd think more lenses (just *maybe* a tilt-shift now???) and more evidence of reliability would be desirable.

Woody Campbell just had an annoying lockup issue with his H4 which apparently has been experienced by others. There's a workaround, and though it would be nearly as frustrating as the S2 lockup, nobody is saying much about Hasselblad in response because of the wealth of evidence that Hassys work for most people most of the time. We don't have the same experience with Leica in MFD, because yes, by comparison the S system is young and few of the 1000 owners publicize their experience.

I, for one, am still getting an S2. I'm not a pro, and I have other cameras I can use if there is a fixable issue. I have no big trips scheduled. So, I'll let you know how it goes. It's easier to be forgiving of Leica when the problem doesn't happen to you - if I get bit (again) I'll come to a similar decision as Marc…

Travis
 

johnnygoesdigital

New member
Guy, I couldn't disagree with you more on being emotionally tied to your gear. Actually, I'm surprised to hear a "pro" make a statement like that. Perhaps, that's what's wrong or missing in many photographers portfolio's. They not connected to the moment... This is not some philosophical theory, but just merely pushing a shutter without regard to the elements at hand seems... boring and uninteresting. For me, the camera is an extension of my art, like an artists paint brush it transforms an exact point in time using composition, and color temp and lighting to create mood and expression. Photographers like Ansel Adams, Bresson and even today's Brian Kosoff are good examples of being emotionally tied to their gear. It's what makes good...no, great photographs! Great photographers like the great painters before them create expression and mood through emotional attachments...I'm humbled and motivated all at once.
 

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
Look at my web site. You will see no let down in art when I shot 35 or MF or a m8 style Yes they are extensions but not the brains. I run the ship, but I agree that it needs to fit you not you fit it. Comfort and ergos are one thing to decide when buying but anyone with alot of experience can shoot anything you put in there hands. I have been through at least a hundred different cams. None of them stopped my art content or style . You just learn the workarounds to any systems but I been shooting since I was a kid so you learn real fast how to work anything thrown at you. I would never say any artist is about the gear in there hand. It's them. Sure we like certain brands for look and functionality which makes life easier on the artist and good gear helps free you from some of the tech details. But my work would never suffer if I switched systems tomorrow. May take a month to get it under your skin.
 

johnnygoesdigital

New member
Marc, The point I was trying to make is that, for me, I had just purchased an H4D, and then the S2 came out. A camera that suits my needs better. After my 3rd "H" I was ready to switch brands, but Hasselblad was amazing at customer service and camera replacement, and I knew that this was just an anomaly. So I trusted them. As I read the reviews of the S2 during this period, I didn't really want to read all the great attributes of this camera system (S2) only because of what I had just invested, literally and emotionally (there it is Guy) I didn't want to like this camera (I know weird, right?)
because I couldn't just take the hit on the H4D and pay the difference for the S2...I was committed to the "H", so, if Leica got bad reviews, I was okay with that...until I used one. My earlier comment has rubbed a few people as they circled the wagons around you. for the record, I do not disagree with your decision, or your principals. I certainly don't need a lecture from others on being professional. I was merely suggesting that your S2 experience is unusual indeed, and maybe deserved another go, but perhaps not with clients, as there is also a learning curve with new products. Had you used one that was perfect than all these other comments would be rather different and a lot more people would buy S2's.
 

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
You may be confusing comfort and ergos with emotionally tied to a system. They really are very separate things. The S2 has a 35mm DSLR style that as i have said many times before will fit a lot more folks better since they are coming from 35mm style shooting but that really is a comfort and ergo choice not a emotionally one per say. By emotional one is tied to a brand for no other reason than the name on the top plate. To me that is meaningless or maybe better said not very important on my list that i would go by in purchasing a system. There are much more important issues at hand for me that come before a name. That is more what i mean by emotional ties. I certainly did not buy Phase because it was Phase, I bought it after going through a very long list of check marks that are important to me. Same with any system. I owned Leica and I love there glass but that does not mean I like there entire system and i have been through a few and i did love the DMR for sure. But none of these leica system until the S2 had enough horsepower in file so I did what i will always do move up to something else, no emotional ties left behind and absolutely no regrets . Now if you have regrets buying a H system than a S2 than obviously that is something to look at, it's your money to spend for sure. The S2 is very very nice i shot it several times, read my review on it but right now I would not switch system personally. I honestly see no reason too and after comparing the s2 was no better than my P40+. All i would be buying is ergos. That is not enough for me to switch plus the costs versus the gains just does not add up for me. I will see what Phase comes with next and i know something is coming on the horizon and I personally am not hurting in anyway gear wise. Actually I'm pretty damn happy with what i have and for a gear slut not easy to say out loud. LOL

Okay I lied i have two lenses on my very short list but my wife reads this forum. ROTFLMAO
I'll put that in code I need two more donuts to get to a dozen.

Anyway getting a little brain dead here. My age is showing. LOL
 

Mike M

New member
There was another S2 thread where I mentioned commodity fetishism. I'm not a philosopher or a formally educated person, but kept running into weird things going on when dealing with people in photography and the only explanations seemed to be found in cultural theory.

When I read Guy's post about how he isn't emotionally attached to gear...what I'm really reading between-the-lines is that he is making his observations about gear based on their use-value as tool rather than their value as a commodity. He's basically saying that he isn't a commodity fetishist. All of his comments about the S2 (that I've read) have always been about it's use as a tool, so he's telling the truth as far as I can tell and isn't basing his observations on emotion.

I know several things that can be done with the S2 that cannot be done with any of the other DMF systems when it comes to certain lighting schemes and producing 3-dimensional depth. That means I have a use-value for it as a tool that might not exist for others. This makes the extra expense and possible quirks of a new system worth it for me as long as I've got the money (which I don't LOL). Many of the criticisms that Guy has about the system might not be deciding factors for me, but that doesn't mean either one of us are basing our observations on emotion rather than reason. We might simply be able to agree-to-disagree when it comes to it's use-value and potential rewards vs drawbacks.

One of the ways that I weed through photography opinion when it comes to gear is to assess whether the observation is made on use-value or value as a commodity. For example, I might choose to ignore a comment comparing the S2 to an accessory like a "Louis Vuitton bag" because it is a fetishistic statement rather than use-value statement.
 
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D&A

Well-known member
... but anyone with alot of experience can shoot anything you put in there hands.....You just learn the workarounds to any systems but I been shooting since I was a kid so you learn real fast how to work anything thrown at you. I would never say any artist is about the gear in there hand. It's them. Sure we like certain brands for look and functionality which makes life easier on the artist and good gear helps free you from some of the tech details. But my work would never suffer if I switched systems tomorrow. May take a month to get it under your skin.
Guy, all I can say is...ain't that the truth! I enjoy using certain gear and it does give me great satisfaction when such gear feels like an extension of my thinking and creative process.....yet when it comes right down to it, if there is a shot that I want or need to get, I'm going to put all my knowledge, abilities and creativity into getting it, no matter what camera I have available in hand at the moment. The gear may be a limiting factor, but personally at that very moment, it's about the shot and how to capture it, in the way I (and possibly others in certain situations such as the art director) envision it.

Dave (D&A)
 
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dfarkas

Workshop Member
I think John makes some very valid points. Not sure that "emotion" and "ergos" are being confused here. Sometimes the feel of something is enough to inspire, or perhaps just enough to become a turn-off. Industrial designers make a career out of this and I'm sure they would call what they do an art form.

Why do high-level craftspeople prefer certain tools? Could a great chef cook you an amazing meal with a butter knife and a $10 aluminum fry pan from Wal Mart on a camping stove? Probably, but my guess is that chef would prefer some good Whustof knives and All Clad cookware along with a high-BTU gas range. A golfer like Tiger Woods or Phil Mickelson could play with the cheapest set of clubs from Target and still shoot half my score. And yet, they prefer well made, balanced clubs. Ask an artist about brushes and canvases and I'm sure you will hear a similar story. Tools are just tools and won't make someone better, but they can eliminate roadblocks along the way and help a great craftsperson or artist create great work.

Bringing this back to cameras, for me, the S2 feels like a camera that I want to pick up and use. Even after using it regularly and handling one almost daily for a year now, I never really want to put it down once I'm holding it. It just feels good and right in my hands. I've had other cameras that felt this way too, like my Nikon F4s and, yes, the R9/DMR. Other cameras seemed to lack inspiration for me, like many of the Canon mid-range DSLRs and almost all of the m4/3 and entry-level DSLRs. I just can't personally stand plastic cameras that are too small for my hands. They could take the best quality images.... but I still wouldn't use them.

I remember about six years ago, everyone loved the Canon 5D. Not me. I hated (and I mean hated :thumbdown:) the sound of the mirror/shutter and the corresponding body vibration. I used it on one trip and that was it. Nothing wrong with the image quality (other than some hit and miss Canon L glass) or with the reliability of the camera, I just didn't like the way it felt to shoot and the way it made me feel while shooting (and I don't mean ergos). At the same time, I found I really enjoyed shooting the Nikon D2x. It sounded better and felt better. The files looked like garbage above ISO 400. But, it was a camera that I enjoyed using and thus, went out and used (at ISO 400 and below, of course ;)).

Now, we are at a technological point in camera development whereby all the serious players are within such a tight grouping relative to image quality, that we can look at all the other factors without sacrificing the final result. If I can shoot an S2, which produces the same IQ as an H4D40 or P40+, but enjoy shooting it more and gain some added technological advantages (battery life, weather sealing, daylight-viewable hi-res LCD, DSLR size, etc), why shouldn't I?

Yes, Marc had some issues with the S2 he tried, but from my own perspective as a long-time S2 shooter (many thousands of frames) and dealing with a large number of S2 owners directly, the vast majority have been enjoying their S2s problem-free. No product is without fault. Apple makes some really nice stuff, yet every time I venture into my local Apple Store, I see a line of people waiting to get stuff fixed at the Genius Bar. In my own experience, my first two 27" iMacs were defective and had to be exchanged. The first had a display that went from yellow to blue from top to bottom. The second had a DOA wi-fi card. The third one worked fine, and still works fine 9 months later. I could have thrown in the towel and gotten a Dell, which I've never had problems with, but I persevered and have a computer that I enjoy using. In fact, it works very well with the S2 files that I feed it. :)

David
 

stephengilbert

Active member
"My first two 27" iMacs were defective and had to be exchanged."

How many months did it take to get your iMac replaced, and how many thousands of dollars did it cost? Did you have to ship it to China?
 

johnnygoesdigital

New member
Travis,

Excellent points, I love the word "groupthink", keep us posted on the S2. It's my understanding that new lenses will be available this Spring. Also, it would probably be another two years for the S3 to become available.
 
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