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S2 Impressions: A year later.

PeterA

Well-known member
... Sometimes the feel of something is enough to inspire, or perhaps just enough to become a turn-off. Industrial designers make a career out of this and I'm sure they would call what they do an art form.

Why do high-level craftspeople prefer certain tools? ....

Bringing this back to cameras, for me, the S2 feels like a camera that I want to pick up and use. .... I just can't personally stand plastic cameras that are too small for my hands. They could take the best quality images.... but I still wouldn't use them.

Now, we are at a technological point in camera development whereby all the serious players are within such a tight grouping relative to image quality, that we can look at all the other factors without sacrificing the final result. If I can shoot an S2, which produces the same IQ as an H4D40 or P40+, but enjoy shooting it more and gain some added technological advantages (battery life, weather sealing, daylight-viewable hi-res LCD, DSLR size, etc), why shouldn't I?

David
Pretty much sums up my thinking David.

On tools...I guess no forum member has ever commissioned a wood plane to be made for their personal use...I have two @ $3000 each - a jointer and a smooting plane from a craftsman in New Zealand. I use them on Australian Hardwoods - which have a habit of dulling all but the best and thickest blades and making 'normal' planes chatter uncontrollably.

I doubt very much the veracity of anyone who uses a camera (or any tool for that matter) regularly that doesnt care about his or her 'partnership' with same. I once asked some musician friends of mine if they cared about their instruments or did they just care about the music...they laughed at the idea that one could be seperated from the other - try playing Flaminco guitar on a thin necked Fender etc etc..

This type of discussion which serves to put down the natural phenomenon of tactile relationship with tools as some kind of fetish is beyond insulting it is pure non sense. A type of inverted snobbery at best but to my way of thinking ignorance dressed up as logic.

The first lesson ANY craftsman training is buy the best tools you afford son.

Now as for best - 40 megapixels is pretty much 40 megapixels. Now choose what package you want and work through the associated compromises. The IDEA that ANY ONE camera can do it all - is another stupidity.

[end]
 

johnnygoesdigital

New member
Guy,
My emotional attachment to MFD gear is also about the money that's spent in search of the best quality. If I didn't care about my "art" I wouldn't purchase a good camera. Obviously, an artist can create with any medium they choose, or for that matter, any camera, but I can't just go and buy another camera... not right now anyway. So, for now I will stick with "Helen", yes, I named my camera ( I really need to get out more). I am emotionally tied to this camera, but for now it's this symbiotic relationship that is mutually beneficial.
 

johnnygoesdigital

New member
Pretty much sums up my thinking David.

On tools...I guess no forum member has ever commissioned a wood plane to be made for their personal use...I have two @ $3000 each - a jointer and a smooting plane from a craftsman in New Zealand. I use them on Australian Hardwoods - which have a habit of dulling all but the best and thickest blades and making 'normal' planes chatter uncontrollably.

I doubt very much the veracity of anyone who uses a camera (or any tool for that matter) regularly that doesnt care about his or her 'partnership' with same. I once asked some musician friends of mine if they cared about their instruments or did they just care about the music...they laughed at the idea that one could be seperated from the other - try playing Flaminco guitar on a thin necked Fender etc etc..

This type of discussion which serves to put down the natural phenomenon of tactile relationship with tools as some kind of fetish is beyond insulting it is pure non sense. A type of inverted snobbery at best but to my way of thinking ignorance dressed up as logic.

The first lesson ANY craftsman training is buy the best tools you afford son.

Now as for best - 40 megapixels is pretty much 40 megapixels. Now choose what package you want and work through the associated compromises. The IDEA that ANY ONE camera can do it all - is another stupidity.

[end]
PeterA,

Superbly eloquent!
 

Mike M

New member
This type of discussion which serves to put down the natural phenomenon of tactile relationship with tools as some kind of fetish is beyond insulting it is pure non sense. A type of inverted snobbery at best but to my way of thinking ignorance dressed up as logic.
[end]
It's funny that you're insulting my post and then backing it up with your music example.

The example of the musicians getting enjoyment from their tools based on how they perform is EXACTLY the opposite of commodity fetishism. They enjoy the tools for their value in use rather than their value as a commodity.

An example might be a collector that pays 50k for 1950s Les Paul because of it's value as a rare object....VS a musician that pays 50k for a 1950s Les Paul because of how the aged wood combined with the authentic vintage pickups will sound on his next recording.
 

Ben Rubinstein

Active member
I think I made this point earlier but I want to repeat it.

If you cannot rely on your first copy of equipment to work properly the first time then you cannot rely on rental as backup or the purchase of a new body as backup should your equipment die before or during a job.

That means you need two sets of backup, owned and tested.

If you need an S2 to do the job then an H4D isn't backup. If you need an S2 to do the job then a A900 isn't backup.

I think that this is a very crucial point for pros. Either buy into reliability or you have to buy, test and then buy two sets of backup (if all 3 bodies go down on you then you ain't going to beat Murphy anyway so just give up!). It's easy to do with a 5DII, which is why I assume so many studios are using them. With MFD, not unless you have a whole bunch of cash sitting spare...
 

Bob

Administrator
Staff member
My impression is that it is almost certain that to start a thread that yields a LOT of interest all one needs to do is place "S2" in the title and say something like
"why is the S2 like a writing desk?"
:ROTFL:
-bob
 

Paratom

Well-known member
I find it interesting, how much emotion we can see in this discussion.

I see it as follows:
-Each camera can fail, no camera is 100% reliable
-From the few reviews on the internet about the S2 some indicate AF problems, Marc also had the frozen shutter problem
-I have no idea how statisticly representative this information is. My local dealer has sold 2 S2 and both guys seem to be happy with it. One of them has used it on several trips in rough conditions. So is the S2 less reliable as other MF systems? We dont know. I would assume that a totally new system might have more problems in the beginning than systems in the 3rd generation.
Back to the car comparison: Would you buy a new model of a car or would you rather wait some years before buying that model. (Personally I would buy it after 2 years i the product lifetime is 6 years)
I would assume everybody who buys a totally new product acts a little bit like a beta tester. On the other side he might be one of the first ones who can also enjoy some new features (In case of S2: formfactor/ lenses/ weather proof).
So we can ask what happens if it fails, we can also ask what happens if it just works?
In case of the M8 and now M9 I am willing to have to send in even new lenses sometimes and wait for 2-3 weeks because I think once the system works its well worth it and nothing else compares.

Regarding Marcs comments: I think even though he had some bad experience with the S2 he never said anything bad about the system. He just described what he experienced. He even wrote that he thinks he had bad luck and that the camera could (eventually) serve others well.
If readers here are not able to develop an own opinion (no matter if its negative or positive ) than its not the fault of Marc or Guy or anybody else IMO.
 

fotografz

Well-known member
I find it interesting, how much emotion we can see in this discussion.

I see it as follows:
-Each camera can fail, no camera is 100% reliable
-From the few reviews on the internet about the S2 some indicate AF problems, Marc also had the frozen shutter problem
-I have no idea how statisticly representative this information is. My local dealer has sold 2 S2 and both guys seem to be happy with it. One of them has used it on several trips in rough conditions. So is the S2 less reliable as other MF systems? We dont know. I would assume that a totally new system might have more problems in the beginning than systems in the 3rd generation.
Back to the car comparison: Would you buy a new model of a car or would you rather wait some years before buying that model. (Personally I would buy it after 2 years i the product lifetime is 6 years)
I would assume everybody who buys a totally new product acts a little bit like a beta tester. On the other side he might be one of the first ones who can also enjoy some new features (In case of S2: formfactor/ lenses/ weather proof).
So we can ask what happens if it fails, we can also ask what happens if it just works?
In case of the M8 and now M9 I am willing to have to send in even new lenses sometimes and wait for 2-3 weeks because I think once the system works its well worth it and nothing else compares.

Regarding Marcs comments: I think even though he had some bad experience with the S2 he never said anything bad about the system. He just described what he experienced. He even wrote that he thinks he had bad luck and that the camera could (eventually) serve others well.
If readers here are not able to develop an own opinion (no matter if its negative or positive ) than its not the fault of Marc or Guy or anybody else IMO.
:thumbup:

-Marc.
 

fotografz

Well-known member
I think there is a middle ground here.

For example, I am with David regarding the 5D ... I just never could take to that camera, in fact I also hated it because of the feel, and especially the sound. But it worked. However, others like my shooting partners Noel and Ed, or our own Ben R. like it for that very "working" reason. It's a workhorse for many wedding photographers.

Not sure David's Apple example is the best, except to support the notion that bad luck can happen with anything. I've never had to stand in line to see an Apple Genius ... make an appointment, and make sure you aren't early or late. IMO, the kitchen example is a bit off also since the competitive set here is hardly a $10 aluminum frying pan ;)

I also believe familiarity and past experiences color our evaluations of gear. For example, after shooting a V camera for 30 years, I developed a familiarity, got results, and the subsequent fondness made it difficult to move on well past the time that my eyes told me "You need AF". It is amazing the excuses we make about gear that no longer works for us anymore. The first time I picked up a H camera at Photo-Plus, and it grabbed critical focus in a dim room, I was hooked.

This "familiarity factor" is a big draw for the S2 ... it is a similar experience to a Pro 35mm DSLR, and borrows from the technologies like weather sealing ...even the frame ratio is the same. Yet after using a H kit for years, I feel I'd never get quite as fast at shooting with the S2 (as it is now) even with customizing the functions, as I can the H. I'm sure many would disagree with that, partially because they simply do not know how to use the H's shooting features ... they are not initially familiar with them, and never get beyond that point.

Personally, I never take any report of a camera as gospel (mine included :)), only as an alert. The S2 AF controversy is denied by some and confirmed by others. Alert! And that alert may simply mean that one has to learn the camera's AF tendencies and incorporate technique that isn't initially "familiar." Or it may mean there is an issue.

The S2 fits many needs for me. However, it cannot replace my MFD kit. Of the two, I can live without the S2, but not without the H. The modular versatility to meet diverse assignments or creative notions, higher resolution (60), very advanced AF system, and the familiarity I have with the one button shooting functions that are now second nature.

This takes nothing away from what the S2 is, or represents to other shooters ... or even how it can fit my own desire to upgrade from 35mm CMOS camera in terms of IQ while retaining that familiar form factor.

-Marc

BTW, what a great discussion this has been. I learn so much from you folks ... it makes you think ... and grow. :thumbs:
 
Last edited:

fotografz

Well-known member
I think I made this point earlier but I want to repeat it.

If you cannot rely on your first copy of equipment to work properly the first time then you cannot rely on rental as backup or the purchase of a new body as backup should your equipment die before or during a job.

That means you need two sets of backup, owned and tested.

If you need an S2 to do the job then an H4D isn't backup. If you need an S2 to do the job then a A900 isn't backup.

I think that this is a very crucial point for pros. Either buy into reliability or you have to buy, test and then buy two sets of backup (if all 3 bodies go down on you then you ain't going to beat Murphy anyway so just give up!). It's easy to do with a 5DII, which is why I assume so many studios are using them. With MFD, not unless you have a whole bunch of cash sitting spare...
Ben, I think "back-ups" depends on intent.

If I take a MFD kit to a wedding or environmental portrait session, the intent is to kick up the IQ by a lot for certain images. This is an auxiliary creative desire, not a necessity as you are fully aware. So, I've never taken both my H cameras to anything like that. I take the Sony ... two of them 'cause they're relatively inexpensive ;)

If I shoot a commercial job in the studio I do have the two MFD solutions ... but they are not the same. However, they can fill-in for one another ... for most applications both meet the need, one is simply less work to get to the final delivered images.

I cannot think of many applications where a H4D/40 wouldn't fill in for a S2 except needing a $2. bag in the pouring rain. IQ is comparible, speed is comparible enough, etc. I can think of applications where a S2 couldn't fill in for my H4D/40 ... like when I need to use my Rollie Xact2 for full T/S functions with front and rear standards. I also do not intend on buying two H4D/60s either :eek: :ROTFL: However, this is once again a desire to kick up the IQ beyond a 40 meg cropped frame camera ... and if it failed on me I'd have to use the H4D/40 ... or the S2 if I had one instead ... which would suffice for the need, but not take it where I originally intended.

In short, desire and need are two different animals. We don't need anything more than fur hides and lean-to to survive, we desire more :)

-Marc
 

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
I think there is a middle ground here.

For example, I am with David regarding the 5D ... I just never could take to that camera, in fact I also hated it because of the feel, and especially the sound. But it worked. However, others like my shooting partners Noel and Ed, or our own Ben R. like it for that very "working" reason. It's a workhorse for many wedding photographers.

Not sure David's Apple example is the best, except to support the notion that bad luck can happen with anything. I've never had to stand in line to see an Apple Genius ... make an appointment, and make sure you aren't early or late. IMO, the kitchen example is a bit off also since the competitive set here is hardly a $10 aluminum frying pan ;)

I also believe familiarity and past experiences color our evaluations of gear. For example, after shooting a V camera for 30 years, I developed a familiarity, got results, and the subsequent fondness made it difficult to move on well past the time that my eyes told me "You need AF". It is amazing the excuses we make about gear that no longer works for us anymore. The first time I picked up a H camera at Photo-Plus, and it grabbed critical focus in a dim room, I was hooked.

This "familiarity factor" is a big draw for the S2 ... it is a similar experience to a Pro 35mm DSLR, and borrows from the technologies like weather sealing ...even the frame ratio is the same. Yet after using a H kit for years, I feel I'd never get quite as fast at shooting with the S2 (as it is now) even with customizing the functions, as I can the H. I'm sure many would disagree with that, partially because they simply do not know how to use the H's shooting features ... they are not initially familiar with them, and never get beyond that point.

Personally, I never take any report of a camera as gospel (mine included :)), only as an alert. The S2 AF controversy is denied by some and confirmed by others. Alert! And that alert may simply mean that one has to learn the camera's AF tendencies and incorporate technique that isn't initially "familiar." Or it may mean there is an issue.

The S2 fits many needs for me. However, it cannot replace my MFD kit. Of the two, I can live without the S2, but not without the H. The modular versatility to meet diverse assignments or creative notions, higher resolution (60), very advanced AF system, and the familiarity I have with the one button shooting functions that are now second nature.

This takes nothing away from what the S2 is, or represents to other shooters ... or even how it can fit my own desire to upgrade from 35mm CMOS camera in terms of IQ while retaining that familiar form factor.

-Marc

BTW, what a great discussion this has been. I learn so much from you folks ... it makes you think ... and grow. :thumbs:
Have to agree.
 

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
There was another S2 thread where I mentioned commodity fetishism. I'm not a philosopher or a formally educated person, but kept running into weird things going on when dealing with people in photography and the only explanations seemed to be found in cultural theory.

When I read Guy's post about how he isn't emotionally attached to gear...what I'm really reading between-the-lines is that he is making his observations about gear based on their use-value as tool rather than their value as a commodity. He's basically saying that he isn't a commodity fetishist. All of his comments about the S2 (that I've read) have always been about it's use as a tool, so he's telling the truth as far as I can tell and isn't basing his observations on emotion.

I know several things that can be done with the S2 that cannot be done with any of the other DMF systems when it comes to certain lighting schemes and producing 3-dimensional depth. That means I have a use-value for it as a tool that might not exist for others. This makes the extra expense and possible quirks of a new system worth it for me as long as I've got the money (which I don't LOL). Many of the criticisms that Guy has about the system might not be deciding factors for me, but that doesn't mean either one of us are basing our observations on emotion rather than reason. We might simply be able to agree-to-disagree when it comes to it's use-value and potential rewards vs drawbacks.

One of the ways that I weed through photography opinion when it comes to gear is to assess whether the observation is made on use-value or value as a commodity. For example, I might choose to ignore a comment comparing the S2 to an accessory like a "Louis Vuitton bag" because it is a fetishistic statement rather than use-value statement.
Well said Mike. What gets my jets rolling is what i am shooting. These tools I pick because they fit me and i do like them for sure but my buy laundry list is very long and sure fit, feel and being comfortable with me are a big consideration but I have a whole lot more to consider than just that. Look i like Leica too guys and certainly people buy them for lets admit it because it is Leica and they like expensive gear or they follow the Red dot. Okay someone had to say it but we all know that is true and nothing wrong with that and frankly I understand it for hobbyist for sure but most Pro's have a different value on tools. I'm in a different mindset all together that stuff is very unimportant to me even though I do like Leica products( owned several) my buy choices and emotions are based use -value and not a commodity item which many folks buy the brand they like and such as Mike says.

Sure with cars i buy German a BMW and actually 2 VW are in my stable. Here it is a commodity purchase i love German cars and how they handle and are built. But cameras no, they are working tools that need to perform a function of my vision. I don't put much stock in a name here but how they will work for me on many levels. As i have said I found that in Phase and very happy with that decision and been through several bodies and backs . Which tells me I upgraded as needed without switching system which is a huge check mark for them. Its a product line that is getting the job done for me. But emotionally i would flip it on a dime if i found something that may work better for me. Clue here i have been married twice . I flipped the first one without emotion and the second is awesome. :ROTFL::ROTFL::ROTFL:
 

PeterA

Well-known member
It's funny that you're insulting my post and then backing it up with your music example.

The example of the musicians getting enjoyment from their tools based on how they perform is EXACTLY the opposite of commodity fetishism. They enjoy the tools for their value in use rather than their value as a commodity.

An example might be a collector that pays 50k for 1950s Les Paul because of it's value as a rare object....VS a musician that pays 50k for a 1950s Les Paul because of how the aged wood combined with the authentic vintage pickups will sound on his next recording.

Mike in your world only professional drivers would be allowed to own high quality cars - and everyone else would be forced to either be a passenger or walk. What about high quality eye glasses and regular medical check-ups am I allowed these privileges? Please send me and everyone else YOUR list of what WE should be allowed to do with OUR money...:ROTFL::ROTFL:

Sorry mate - we left the feudal ages behind a few centuries ago :salute:
 

David K

Workshop Member
If I can shoot an S2, which produces the same IQ as an H4D40 or P40+, but enjoy shooting it more and gain some added technological advantages (battery life, weather sealing, daylight-viewable hi-res LCD, DSLR size, etc), why shouldn't I?
David
This pretty much sums it up for me. Every camera system out there has it's strengths and weaknesses. They all involve compromise at some point. The S2 has a more appealing set of compromises for me... it's got more of what I like and less of what I don't. It's a subjective choice based on objective factors which have a different weight for each of us. During the course of the years that I've been shooting MF those weights and balances have shifted for me. At one point the Sinar Hy6 with interchangeable platforms was very appealing. It allowed me to shoot a variety of platforms and use some very special glass. It had it's flaws but it was uniquely suited for someone who valued this versatility. The S2 has different advantages which are more important to me now. Folks told me I was nuts when I bought the Sinar kit then and other folks tell me I'm nuts for buying the S2 now but since I'm writing the check I kind of think I'm entitled to be nuts anyway I want :)
 
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