The GetDPI Photography Forum

Great to see you here. Join our insightful photographic forum today and start tapping into a huge wealth of photographic knowledge. Completing our simple registration process will allow you to gain access to exclusive content, add your own topics and posts, share your work and connect with other members through your own private inbox! And don’t forget to say hi!

S2 Impressions: A year later.

hcubell

Well-known member
Pretty much sums up my thinking David.

On tools...I guess no forum member has ever commissioned a wood plane to be made for their personal use...I have two @ $3000 each - a jointer and a smooting plane from a craftsman in New Zealand. I use them on Australian Hardwoods - which have a habit of dulling all but the best and thickest blades and making 'normal' planes chatter uncontrollably.

I doubt very much the veracity of anyone who uses a camera (or any tool for that matter) regularly that doesnt care about his or her 'partnership' with same. I once asked some musician friends of mine if they cared about their instruments or did they just care about the music...they laughed at the idea that one could be seperated from the other - try playing Flaminco guitar on a thin necked Fender etc etc..

This type of discussion which serves to put down the natural phenomenon of tactile relationship with tools as some kind of fetish is beyond insulting it is pure non sense. A type of inverted snobbery at best but to my way of thinking ignorance dressed up as logic.

The first lesson ANY craftsman training is buy the best tools you afford son.

Now as for best - 40 megapixels is pretty much 40 megapixels. Now choose what package you want and work through the associated compromises. The IDEA that ANY ONE camera can do it all - is another stupidity.

[end]
The tactile relationship between the photographer and the camera is important as it can contribute in a positive way to the image making process. The camera should not get in the way of you realizing your vision. The camera should facilitate it. However, to me, the "best" tool has to be a tool that has a very high degree of reliability. Reliability is paramount. An S2 that doesn't work when you need it to work is a very expensive paper weight, not a tool. The S2 may have superb lenses, sublime ergonomics, unique weatherproofing, etc., but if I cannot trust it to perform flawlessly when I need it, I cross it off my list.
Leica has assiduously cultivated its image in recent years as a "status" brand. A significant percentage of its cameras are sold to people who put them in drawers and the cameras rarely if ever see the light of day. Somehow, I think a company that has seen that as its customer base is unlikely to turn on a dime and be able to make a tool, the S2, for customers with a very different set of expectations and a low tolerance level for a product that is not extremely reliable.
 

Ben Rubinstein

Active member
Ben, I think "back-ups" depends on intent.

If I take a MFD kit to a wedding or environmental portrait session, the intent is to kick up the IQ by a lot for certain images. This is an auxiliary creative desire, not a necessity as you are fully aware. So, I've never taken both my H cameras to anything like that. I take the Sony ... two of them 'cause they're relatively inexpensive ;)

-Marc
Sorry Marc, I'm a starving artist, can't possibly conceive of the concept of owning an 'auxiliary creative device' without which I could do the job just as well... :ROTFL::ROTFL:
 

xpixel

New member
The S2 may have superb lenses, sublime ergonomics, unique weatherproofing, etc., but if I cannot trust it to perform flawlessly when I need it, I cross it off my list.
Thats all hypothetical you write here. There are a lot of S2 user which are very satiesfied with it.
 

PeterA

Well-known member
The tactile relationship between the photographer and the camera is important as it can contribute in a positive way to the image making process. The camera should not get in the way of you realizing your vision. The camera should facilitate it. However, to me, the "best" tool has to be a tool that has a very high degree of reliability. Reliability is paramount. An S2 that doesn't work when you need it to work is a very expensive paper weight, not a tool. The S2 may have superb lenses, sublime ergonomics, unique weatherproofing, etc., but if I cannot trust it to perform flawlessly when I need it, I cross it off my list.
Leica has assiduously cultivated its image in recent years as a "status" brand. A significant percentage of its cameras are sold to people who put them in drawers and the cameras rarely if ever see the light of day. Somehow, I think a company that has seen that as its customer base is unlikely to turn on a dime and be able to make a tool, the S2, for customers with a very different set of expectations and a low tolerance level for a product that is not extremely reliable.
Howard I like your landscape shots - enough to be jealous of the beauty of your environment - which is my ultimate compliment for landscape work (FWIW)

My 'thing' is mainly street and documentary type work. I occasionally do reportage style fashion for friends in the rag trade (oops fashion industry) I think the technical expression used by 'professionals' is 'lifestyle' or 'editorial'. For this type of shooting I have used Leica M cameras since I discovered them in a second hand shop nearly ten years ago. My M 'collection is M3, M7,MP M8 and M9 with about ten or so lenses. Every one of these cameras works for me - I just wish Leica had made an XPan - so we could have had a few lenses faster than F4..

I know a lot of Leica shooters in Australia and around the world - I have heard that there are lot of 'collectors' but I don't know any myself. I think Leica made some mistakes with the M8 corrected in the M9 I believe that they really goofed not bringing out an R10 - which only needed to have 16 or so megapixels and autofocus to make my day.

I got into MF digital in the quest for ultimate quality - probably before anyone on this forum except for Marc. Since this quest I have shot with Leaf, Hasselblad, Phase One and Sinar - on Contax, H, Mamiya and Hy6 platforms and I think I was using an Alpa with a Leaf back before anyone in this forum had even heard about them

There isn't much anyone can tell me about MFD that I didn't know a few years before these same 'experts' started reading forums like this one - certainly MY experience is that the dedicated amateur who shoots for the love of shooting rather than producing for client needs is a far more interesting and useful source of information in the REAL world than the so called professionals - who by and large give themselves away as in the main ordinary at best - when you look at their sites.

My experience has been that EVERY ONE of these backs and manufacturers has delivered disappointment to me in BUCKET LOADS for one reason or another - compared to the experience I have had with Leica or CaNikon.

In the main I can say that everyone of the MFD manufacturers has overcharged and underdelivered - all the time.

So I am not surprised that the S2 is having 'teething' problems. If they get smart and patch up their differences with C1 - they might do themselves and everyone else a favour by having access to great raw processing.

Am I surprised that Marc has had two bad body experiences? nope. Will it make me any more cautious before buying than I already was ? Nope. Am I scared off on buying an S2 ? Nope

My expectations ARENT the unrealistic expectations of a newbie or a working pro who( lets be frank) mainly use CANikons anyway for very good reasons.

All I want out of an S2 is the ergonomics I already know it delivers. Thats enough for me to sell one or two of my systems and get an S2 with the proceeds.

If it stops working I will send back to be fixed and grab the M9 out of my pocket - which is the back-up for everything now anyway.

I dont believe the internet wisdom of Leica as a company which is dedicated to collectors and even if it was - if these collectors financed the company to continue making by far and away the very best optics for SLR and rangefinders - more strength to them!

I will use the S2 as a walkaround camera as well as a studio camera - hand held - something I have already tested as a superior alternative to what I already own in 40 megapixel land.

Will I make sure that the camera as delivered works before I get delivery ABSOLUTELY!

Will it make me a better photographer? nope. Will I enjoy using it more than other stuff I have to compromise my hands and eyes to use today - absolutely!

Pete
 

KurtKamka

Subscriber Member
The tactile relationship between the photographer and the camera is important as it can contribute in a positive way to the image making process. The camera should not get in the way of you realizing your vision. The camera should facilitate it. However, to me, the "best" tool has to be a tool that has a very high degree of reliability. Reliability is paramount. An S2 that doesn't work when you need it to work is a very expensive paper weight, not a tool. The S2 may have superb lenses, sublime ergonomics, unique weatherproofing, etc., but if I cannot trust it to perform flawlessly when I need it, I cross it off my list.
Leica has assiduously cultivated its image in recent years as a "status" brand. A significant percentage of its cameras are sold to people who put them in drawers and the cameras rarely if ever see the light of day. Somehow, I think a company that has seen that as its customer base is unlikely to turn on a dime and be able to make a tool, the S2, for customers with a very different set of expectations and a low tolerance level for a product that is not extremely reliable.
Dismissive blanket statements are silly about any product, user group or user experience ... all one can do is gather information from their own specific user experience and/or look for a wide variety of inputs to draw their own educated conclusions.

While you might dismiss the S2 as an extremely unreliable piece of equipment because of bits of information gleaned off of camera forums, others are using it in a variety of difficult conditions with great results. In most instances, as it was stated in this and other threads in the medium format section, if you are interested in a particular system ... try it before you buy it ... and most importantly use it before you dismiss it.

Case in point, I had no reservations or complaints in walking around with my S2 for several hours in 7 degree fahrenheit weather this morning. If anything, my disregard for my personal sanity/comfort should be called into question. I've probably spent more time with my S2 in inclement weather over the past several months than a majority of medium format shooters will spend with their equipment in similar conditions during their lifetime. Some shooters haul their cubes, top of the line gitzo tripods, tech cameras and lenses into a scenic condition for a week and talk smack about inclement weather on internet forums. Bully for them, but in forming an opinion on gear, you can't outrightly dismiss other shooters who spend lots of time pushing the gear to its limits.

For some shooters like me, form factor and usability in inclement weather is more important than others. In my personal usage, the S2 has passed the test with flying colors. Two years ago, I spent several days with my P45+ back and Phase camera in shoots where the morning temperatures were -17 degrees fahrenheit. The back performed amazingly well, but I hated using the camera in those conditions. The shooting experience was awkward ... try frequently changing two sets of batteries with gloves on. Similarly, when I tried using the H4D platform for an extended trial run this fall, I loved the images I was getting with the system. But, in the end I didn't feel comfortable with a few things like the battery grip and slower lenses in the Hasselblad stable. So I made my choice, but I don't post as often or as loudly as others.

My long and rambling point is that one has to dig deep and wide to search for a consensus on any gear ... and before perpetuating opinions, one should spend time with the gear he/she wishes to purchase in scenarios in which he/she plan on shooting with it.
 

johnnygoesdigital

New member
Guy,
This is where we really differ. Without repeating my same points and echoing PeterA's comment. The "comfort and ergonomics " you mention, contribute to efficiency and that translates to freedom to create and express. I don't want to go through 100 camera systems! Can I create more or less the same images with different cameras? Of course, but which one was more pleasingly graceful? Ergonomics and comfort are designed to interact! When I capture a great image, i'll look at my camera and say..."we did that".

MikeM, I don't follow your logic on this one, both are getting something they want, but the musician has the decidedly better advantage. The results are more dynamic and engaging.
 

Bob

Administrator
Staff member
There are a lot of camera alternatives, a lot of shooting situations, and even more photographers.
I bet that photographers don't all drive the same car or drink the same brand of scotch.
The hope I have is that the decisions made by the individual suit them well for their purposes and are not just a purchased because "everyone else" was doing it.
So I think that Marc did the right thing. A test drive of any gear purchase is just a good idea.
Decisions are sometimes based on the strangest factors. I once bought a new camera because it was in stock and I needed one immediately.
It turns out that I used that snap-purchase for years, more than any other one purchase. It was a Nikon F3HP, but at the time, if there were other cameras available in that shop I am not sure that I would have bought it.
So I don't think it is necessary to justify a purchase or a non-purchase to anyone else other than yourself; just answer the question will it do what I need it to do and do I have confidence in it.
-bob
 

johnnygoesdigital

New member
The tactile relationship between the photographer and the camera is important as it can contribute in a positive way to the image making process. The camera should not get in the way of you realizing your vision. The camera should facilitate it. However, to me, the "best" tool has to be a tool that has a very high degree of reliability. Reliability is paramount. An S2 that doesn't work when you need it to work is a very expensive paper weight, not a tool. The S2 may have superb lenses, sublime ergonomics, unique weatherproofing, etc., but if I cannot trust it to perform flawlessly when I need it, I cross it off my list.
Leica has assiduously cultivated its image in recent years as a "status" brand. A significant percentage of its cameras are sold to people who put them in drawers and the cameras rarely if ever see the light of day. Somehow, I think a company that has seen that as its customer base is unlikely to turn on a dime and be able to make a tool, the S2, for customers with a very different set of expectations and a low tolerance level for a product that is not extremely reliable.
Hcubell,

What are your sources for the S2 not being reliable? Please indicate where there is a pattern for these malfunctions, other than what you've gleaned off these forums. The fact that people are purchasing Leica because they hold value seems to be a bonus. If I purchase a Leica lens for the S2 now, I will get the same return if I sell it a year from now! It's like getting the free use of a lens.
 

KeithL

Well-known member
There isn't much anyone can tell me about MFD that I didn't know a few years before these same 'experts' started reading forums like this one - certainly MY experience is that the dedicated amateur who shoots for the love of shooting rather than producing for client needs is a far more interesting and useful source of information in the REAL world than the so called professionals - who by and large give themselves away as in the main ordinary at best - when you look at their sites.
This just gets better and better...
 

hcubell

Well-known member
Howard I like your landscape shots - enough to be jealous of the beauty of your environment - which is my ultimate compliment for landscape work (FWIW)

My 'thing' is mainly street and documentary type work. I occasionally do reportage style fashion for friends in the rag trade (oops fashion industry) I think the technical expression used by 'professionals' is 'lifestyle' or 'editorial'. For this type of shooting I have used Leica M cameras since I discovered them in a second hand shop nearly ten years ago. My M 'collection is M3, M7,MP M8 and M9 with about ten or so lenses. Every one of these cameras works for me - I just wish Leica had made an XPan - so we could have had a few lenses faster than F4..

I know a lot of Leica shooters in Australia and around the world - I have heard that there are lot of 'collectors' but I don't know any myself. I think Leica made some mistakes with the M8 corrected in the M9 I believe that they really goofed not bringing out an R10 - which only needed to have 16 or so megapixels and autofocus to make my day.

I got into MF digital in the quest for ultimate quality - probably before anyone on this forum except for Marc. Since this quest I have shot with Leaf, Hasselblad, Phase One and Sinar - on Contax, H, Mamiya and Hy6 platforms and I think I was using an Alpa with a Leaf back before anyone in this forum had even heard about them

There isn't much anyone can tell me about MFD that I didn't know a few years before these same 'experts' started reading forums like this one - certainly MY experience is that the dedicated amateur who shoots for the love of shooting rather than producing for client needs is a far more interesting and useful source of information in the REAL world than the so called professionals - who by and large give themselves away as in the main ordinary at best - when you look at their sites.

My experience has been that EVERY ONE of these backs and manufacturers has delivered disappointment to me in BUCKET LOADS for one reason or another - compared to the experience I have had with Leica or CaNikon.

In the main I can say that everyone of the MFD manufacturers has overcharged and underdelivered - all the time.

So I am not surprised that the S2 is having 'teething' problems. If they get smart and patch up their differences with C1 - they might do themselves and everyone else a favour by having access to great raw processing.

Am I surprised that Marc has had two bad body experiences? nope. Will it make me any more cautious before buying than I already was ? Nope. Am I scared off on buying an S2 ? Nope

My expectations ARENT the unrealistic expectations of a newbie or a working pro who( lets be frank) mainly use CANikons anyway for very good reasons.

All I want out of an S2 is the ergonomics I already know it delivers. Thats enough for me to sell one or two of my systems and get an S2 with the proceeds.

If it stops working I will send back to be fixed and grab the M9 out of my pocket - which is the back-up for everything now anyway.

I dont believe the internet wisdom of Leica as a company which is dedicated to collectors and even if it was - if these collectors financed the company to continue making by far and away the very best optics for SLR and rangefinders - more strength to them!

I will use the S2 as a walkaround camera as well as a studio camera - hand held - something I have already tested as a superior alternative to what I already own in 40 megapixel land.

Will I make sure that the camera as delivered works before I get delivery ABSOLUTELY!

Will it make me a better photographer? nope. Will I enjoy using it more than other stuff I have to compromise my hands and eyes to use today - absolutely!

Pete

Thank you, Peter. Much appreciated.
For the type of photography you do, I can easily understand how you would be ok if your S2 failed on location and you had to turn to your M9. The M9 is extremely well suited as a repacement. For the kind of landscape work I do, I don't have an equally acceptable backup. I have learned the hard way about the importance of the reliability of my equipment. I used to use a Hasselblad H3D-39. I was generally quite happy with the camera and the lenses, but suffered a number of complete failures of the camera and had to return it to Hasselblad in Europe. I had no complaints about the customer service from Hasselblad. It was extraordinary. They FEDEX'd a loaner camera to me each time, even before they received my camera. The last straw was when I was in Southern Utah for a week and the camera failed late on the second day, a Friday, so a loaner could not be shipped till Monday and would not arrive till Tuesday. I did have a Canon 5DII as a backup, but for me it was a big step down from the H3D. That's the point at which I decided enough was enough. I switched to a Phase One P65 and bought three lightly used H bodies as backups. I am not sure it's true, but the anecdotal reports were that the Phase backs were much more reliable than the Hassy digital backs. So far, so good with my P65. The H series bodies have been reported to have lots of problems, consistent with my experience, but I now have three of them!
BTW, I thought about trying/buying an S2 before buying the P65, but David
Farkas never returned my call.
 

hcubell

Well-known member
Hcubell,

What are your sources for the S2 not being reliable? Please indicate where there is a pattern for these malfunctions, other than what you've gleaned off these forums. The fact that people are purchasing Leica because they hold value seems to be a bonus. If I purchase a Leica lens for the S2 now, I will get the same return if I sell it a year from now! It's like getting the free use of a lens.
My research is limited to the OP receiving two defective/malfunctioning bodies in a row. I am completely unprepared to conclude that Marc is "just" unlucky. The only way to be sure about the real track record of the S2s for reliability is for Leica to open up its warranty records for our inspection, and we know that's not happening.
As for being able to sell an S2 lens without a loss after a year, that does not mean much to me. I don't buy cameras as investments. I did, however, buy a Leitz Focomat IC enlarger in 1969 and sold it in 1978 for more than I originally paid for it.
 

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
It's a shame really but I agree with your sentiment..
You want butter and salt on your popcorn Sir. :)

I'm being good and packing for LA. Checking my system twice and being nice. Wait Christmas is over :talk028:

Problem is folks many of you are speculating on how many happy users , how many users have not reported issues on forums , how many users are not on forums to hear from them and on the flip side how many users are reporting issues, how many users refuse to participate on forums to discuss them. Saying there are many happy users or how many are unhappy , we need to see real stats on that. So sorry some crazy comments without real hard evidence in all directions. I think the evidence we have before us concludes that it is suspect to issues let's call the kettle black here we seen the some evidence of it. How many there are how many are holding back who the heck knows and really does 15 happy campers make it okay for the poor guy holding a DOA cam in his hands. Lets get real here and secondly lets stop the insults , which one comment really ticked me off as part owner of this site and our rules. Let's keep it friendly and REAL. Last time I looked we all put our pants on the same way.
 

Ben Rubinstein

Active member
Yeah well packing for a flight to the UK tomorrow, trying my new shutter in the line of fire at a wedding, tried it already on a paying job (with backup of course) and all ok apart from the filthiest sensor I've ever seen, a pro repair shop should know better than changing a sensor without cleaning the sensor afterwards (groan). Luckily weddings aren't shot stopped down like the work I was doing which showed up the dust...

Lufthansa, best kosher meals of any airline I've ever flown on, nice planes too and never ever late. Looking forward after a year of flying budget airlines!
 

stephengilbert

Active member
"Last time I looked we all put our pants on the same way."

Except the firemen: they leave their pants tucked into their boots so they can get them on quickly when the bell rings.
 

GMB

Active member
Dismissive blanket statements are silly about any product, user group or user experience ... all one can do is gather information from their own specific user experience and/or look for a wide variety of inputs to draw their own educated conclusions.

My long and rambling point is that one has to dig deep and wide to search for a consensus on any gear ... and before perpetuating opinions, one should spend time with the gear he/she wishes to purchase in scenarios in which he/she plan on shooting with it.
For what it's worth, I agree with your post.

It seems that we all are looking for what the Germans call Eigerlegendewollmichsau (egg-laying-wool-milk-sau) only that it does not exist. So you have to make compromises and decide for yourself what is more important for you. Some will rightly pay a high premium on (real or perceived) reliability; others want portability; others MP and the best glass there is. It is a very personal choice.

This forum helps to make that choice, but to be frank, and with all due respect to those who generously share their knowledge (and, in particular Guy), for me this is only one source of information. Also, I have no idea how many MFD users there are, but it must be several thousand. So the 50+ active posters here are only a small fraction of those who use these cameras (again, no offense to anyone or this forum). I therefore also look at other fora and listen to a trusted dealer; of course, a dealer wants to sell but I trust that a good dealer would not persuade a valued customer to buy into a system if he knows or suspects that the customer will likely be unhappy (in a same manner as a pro photographer would not persuade a prospective client do a shoot if he suspects that the client will not like the result).

Not sure where I will come out (it is now about a year that I first posted a question requesting advice on a MFD system), but I am leaning towards the S2 for pretty much the same reasons that Kurt set out and that I am not going to repeat. I know that with a 80MP Leaf, and Arca Swiss, Schneider Lenses, and a solid tripod I would likely get better image quality (at pretty much the same price) BUT I wont use that system much less than the S2. So may be if I get one, and if it fails on me, you will see me rambling. Just do me a favor and don't tell me then "I told you so!"

Anyway, I followed this thread almost like a life ticker of a soccer match. Kind of fun to see the different views clashing.

Georg
 

AnthonyFlores

New member
This is my first post, and only fitting to jump in on such a contentious thread. I'm already big fans of Guy, Jack, Marc and others from just reading a ton of posts ... you guys are so awesome and provide an amazing service.

I wanted to chime in on the "emotion" debate -- and I can't speak from the perspective of being a "pro" because I don't and will probably never derive my sole source of income from photography. In fact, I'm rather new to photography but must admit that I have sort of "fallen" for Leica after seeing so many M images, reading the history, the look of their designs, etc. The fact that I'm even considering an S2 as a hobbyist (though I do have things I could shoot to recoup the cost of the package) ... says something about the "emotional" impact that their brand has.

And while I'm a hobbyist, I wouldn't rule out the notion that many pros get emotionally attached to the brand they use. Just look at all the Canon vs. Nikon debates amongst pros online ... or in another industry, I know so many professional writers, designers, graphic artists, etc who couldn't do their same work on a PC for less money -- yet Apple has done a phenomenal job of creating that culture and warm/fuzzy feeling that people want to be part of.

Doesn't mean it's right. Probably the healthiest perspective is the one Guy has -- where the gear is just a means to an end, if something better comes along with superior specs/economics -- then you simply switch. Makes sense and perhaps some people can be like that, but I know too many "pros" in both photography and film that have emotional attachments to their gear. (Red camera is another great example -- phenomenal products, very shaky start, and now they have one of the most emotionally enthusiastic, passionate followings -- some of the strongest brand evangelists I've ever seen in any industry.)

I guess the point of all this that it's okay to be emotionally attached and passionate about the brand that you use ... but as others have noted, it's dangerous to get so attached that you become blinded to issues that could compromise you professionally and financially. (Like if Marc had been so in love with Leica that he didn't bring a backup, it would have hurt him professionally. Not the case, but just as an example.)

In my case, I admit that even though I came to fascination about MFD through being in love with the M9 ... I have been pretty impressed by images I've seen from Guy, Jack and those with Phase gear ... and also super impressed with many of the Hasselblad "Masters" stuff I've seen. That shook me a little of my worship for Leica, however, I must admit -- and especially after holding the S2 -- that none of the other brands will give me the same excited, proud, warm/fuzzy feeling that Leica does.

And if those emotions lead one to get out more and shoot, and enjoy shooting more -- can they really be such a bad thing?

Anthony

P.S. -- I say all this with the belief that Leica kinda missed the mark on pricing this item. I know they thrive on their small, "hand built" reputation and it looks good from a branding/marketing perspective when your demand always exceeds your supply ... however, had they done this at even $15k for the body, they would have so many more adopters PLUS it would be so much easier to have backups or upgrade later to the S3.

Then again, I think that if you surveyed everyone they'd agree: A lower price for the body, a full line of lenses and better QC would be have made this camera a huge home run and no brainer for a lot more pro photographers.
 

fotografz

Well-known member
Thats all hypothetical you write here. There are a lot of S2 user which are very satiesfied with it.
Well, to be fair ... that is hypothetical also.

First of all there aren't that many S2s out there ... and secondly, how many are in the hands of people who hold that "I need it to work" standard of performance ... I mean, really need it?

Not knocking anything here, just there isn't enough solid information either way.

My initial post was simply a S2 report a year later ... the advances ... and unfortunately the hiccups.

To tell the truth, not many professional photographers, even very successful ones, are very quick to grab the latest greatest. A little bit lesser performance with a very stable platform is pretty highly prized ... and not many are in a hurry to engage in hypothetical anything when it comes to gear. There are enough unknowns and variables in photography already without introducing more.

-Marc
 
Top