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Gear & Our Art: 2011?

fotografz

Well-known member
Some clarification:

I AM shooting with the S2 camera, not just talking about it. I just got back from shooting in the bitter cold (again), as well as in lower available interior light.

Creative intent is driving this consideration. Stylistically, I am primarily a people shooter... and of that, primarily a candid shooter. Aesthetically, I like CCD files, and big ones are better than small ones for my post processing approach. I liked the DMR most of any DSLR ever ... but manual focus became increasing difficult for my style of shooting with aging eyes, and the DMR files were smallish.

I like beautiful subtleties in photos, just like I like the same in paintings and drawings. However, content and expressions of an idea, or a revealing moment is what determines what is kept and what is not ... aesthetics are just a bonus if present, and I much prefer it when they are, especially when the look/feel enhances the idea or moment that was captured ... "i.e., light, etc.".

I recognized long ago that I am more intuitive than logical, and often don't even remember capturing a certain image that turns out to be a decisive expression of what was happening in front of me. I get to discover it again when editing ... as if someone else shot the darned thing :ROTFL: It's almost a trance like state of shooting ... spontaneous reaction informed by intuitive anticipation. If I actually thought about it, I doubt I'd have captured many of the shots I like most.

That is the criteria I'm using to evaluate this camera.

Update: used the 35 and 70. S2 focus was fine even though I was shooting wide open most of the time. However, I did note that I tend to fill the AF circle with the subject area I wanted in focus.

Bad news was the shutter button stuck twice when shooting in the cold, which stopped me in my tracks. Don't know why it stuck.

Also tried the SF58 Flash because sometimes I need fill. Set on TTL won't work, but TTL/HSS, A and M do work ... don't know why TTL won't work (yes, I made sure the shutter speed was in sync range and TTL does work on my M9). 9 times out of 10 I am the error not the camera, so further investigation is required.

Thanks again for all the input.

-Marc

Oh, and I think the art aspect of photography is more difficult to talk about than an inanimate object. Perhaps because you inevitably have to talk about yourself, your feelings and thoughts to be specific ... otherwise it can turn into a pontificating art lecture that may be to hard to relate to if too generalized.
 

Terry

New member
+ 1!


The other comment I want to make relates to an article in the recent edition of the "Economist" on how too much choice can kill the choice. Indeed, choosing one system inevitably means a decision against other system and there always is the angst that the other system might have been the better choice. (Even for the few for which money is no issue, a choice has been made as you wont carry 5 systems with you when going out to shoot.) I already noted that with my M outfit as I often have difficulty to decide which lens to take with me--I did not have that problem in the beginning when I started with the 35 and 90 mm. Interestingly, I made some of the best pictures this year on the few occasions that I went out with one lens only--no choices while shooting--and I now often go out with 2 lenses only and then look for subjects that fit the lenses.
When I went to Yosemite this fall I had one lens for my tech camera (35mm). The running joke was it was "the perfect scene for a 35" or "I need to pull out my long 35" or "this calls for a short 35". I came away from that trip happy and have a number of shots that I want to print. Having one lens on that trip was the best thing for me.

When I had my M8 I always went out in NYC with only one lens (either the 28 cron or 50 lux). Like you, most of my best shots are where I had little choice of gear but lots of choice on how to use it to frame the right shot.
 

robertwright

New member
Watched an interesting interview with Richard Serra where he said something like "don't be too eager to throw away process if it works" and this is something I think applies here.

In what I would characterize as the rush to digital we have abandoned a ton of working process. Things that just worked, plus warts, all. Even the drudgery parts, there is something in that too. I think it can have a negative effect, especially them multiplied several times over as we uphrase and switch systems. What are we losing each time- we think we are getting closer to something, something supposedly better, but many times farther away from our original inspiration in photography.

I'm really only talking about artistic work, in commercial work we have to do what we have to do and I dont miss any of that, but the basics of film and printing, the slowness, how it is a necessity to just stick to known formulas, consistency, etc- I think that is missing from digital- it is all too easy, there is no hard won investment, you can change it on a dime.
In 2011 I will be sticking as much as possible with "one camera, one lens, one paper" (yes, in digital) to really know it and make it mine.
 

GrahamWelland

Subscriber & Workshop Member
+1 on the "less is more" approach to shooting and forcing yourself to be more creative. My M experience was very similar and i finally ended up with a 3 lens outfit and mostly really only shot with the M9 & 35 'lux. Ditto with my Nikons - I'll often just go out & shoot with just the 35/1.4 or 50/1.4.

The more gear I take, the less i shoot and very often tHe less I like the results. I know it's a bit of a "gear cliche" but it seems to be true.

Now if I HAD to produce the goods like a pro has to, well then it's a different situation altogether I'm sure.
 

mvirtue

New member
I'm going to add my 2 cents:
Would you bring a Clydesdale to a barrel race? No. Unless it was the only horse you had.

Sometimes it's great to have the perfect tool to do the job. But we cannot afford the perfect tool for each occasion, we have to make compromises. I can use both my 1DsIII and 1DIII interchangeably (we'll ignore the crop & resolution ) 90% of the time. Neither will surface in the studio now that I have the RZ.

Do I have desires equipment wise, yes. Santa did not bring me an M8 or M9, so I'll have to drag my fixed lens point and shoot if I want something that fits in a pocket. Canon is not making anything that appeals as a replacement for my IIIs. I went 18 years with my OM1&2. But as was stated earlier, you're buying the film for the life of the body now. I'm happy with the "film" that I get with the Canons then. I'll give the ZD back a year before I splurge on another back.
 

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
From my seat what I see is a lot of folks care about what gear they are buying in terms of lens , accessories and such but my final criteria above all else is bullet proof. I can deal with many compromises in a system as long as i have a work around. As i said before a Pros main job is solving problems or making things work out of thin air. But the last thing i want is gear that does not perform all the time or has some design flaw to deal with. I have enough stuff going on in front of me to problem solve but at the end of the day is i want bullet proof not waiting for new firmware to fix this or that. My buying cams to be the beta tester pig are over. I am increasingly having a bigger issue these days when i hear well a firmware update will fix that and that update is 3 months out. I'm done with that and won't buy gear anymore with those limitations on them. I waited almost a year to upgrade to my P40+ because I did not like the C1 profile out of the gate. This was a very small issue but I still waited it out. Buying a cam and hoping is something I have given up on and I have not bought new out of the gate lately with any gear that actually means something too me on a business level. Sure bought the small Sony's and such but they are the toys not the serious guns I need to work with.

Not to bring up a brand name here because that is really not the point but when I went with Phase all this struggle stuff stopped dead in it's tracks . I rarely have any camera, workflow or functional issues at hand to deal with. No the system is not perfect and I still have certain workarounds but the camera is ready for use and that is more my point. I don't hardly think about any of this stuff anymore and when i grab that bag I am out to shoot and deliver and it does that without wishing this firmware did that or something else. I care about my Art and getting images and what i have really left behind and you all know I have been first out of the gate M8,DMR and others but know i refuse to fall into that trap of trying to be the guy to fix world issues with immature gear. It brought me nothing but heartaches and failed imagery . I'm just done with that and yes i am very much a right brain person . Art is number one the rest is sometimes even worthless to think about. I don't buy into a lot of tech stuff until I can see and process the images and let my eyes do the talking. In all honesty since I bought the Phase I care less and less about the gear because I am not having any issues that wants me to jump into another frying pan. I'm just not willing to risk my money or time anymore. Just no value in it.

I think the key is find a system that works and does not have warts. Compromising on some features is one thing but warts is a whole different ballgame.
 

MoJo

Registred Users
This is one of the best threads ever......!!!!
So much wisdom, and i say YES!
For myself, my heroes/mentors are the old Masters - Boubat, Bresson, Ronis, Kertesz, Sudek, Doisneau - their photos never fail to move me.... deeply. And you know what, their equipment probably was not as good as most decent gear readily available today.
Yet their images had a magical joie de vivre and impact......
My takeaway....? Improve my eye, practice, shoot and then shoot some more, it is not the equipment as much as about the eye behind the camera.......
But this is for my style of shooting. If i was a product photographer, or shot for Vogue etc. the equipment would be more important....
 

MoJo

Registred Users
that would be great, i'd love to do that..... I do use a bunch of lo-fi cameras alot when i go around here shooting......
 

fotografz

Well-known member
From my seat what I see is a lot of folks care about what gear they are buying in terms of lens , accessories and such but my final criteria above all else is bullet proof. I can deal with many compromises in a system as long as i have a work around. As i said before a Pros main job is solving problems or making things work out of thin air. But the last thing i want is gear that does not perform all the time or has some design flaw to deal with. I have enough stuff going on in front of me to problem solve but at the end of the day is i want bullet proof not waiting for new firmware to fix this or that. My buying cams to be the beta tester pig are over. I am increasingly having a bigger issue these days when i hear well a firmware update will fix that and that update is 3 months out. I'm done with that and won't buy gear anymore with those limitations on them. I waited almost a year to upgrade to my P40+ because I did not like the C1 profile out of the gate. This was a very small issue but I still waited it out. Buying a cam and hoping is something I have given up on and I have not bought new out of the gate lately with any gear that actually means something too me on a business level. Sure bought the small Sony's and such but they are the toys not the serious guns I need to work with.

Not to bring up a brand name here because that is really not the point but when I went with Phase all this struggle stuff stopped dead in it's tracks . I rarely have any camera, workflow or functional issues at hand to deal with. No the system is not perfect and I still have certain workarounds but the camera is ready for use and that is more my point. I don't hardly think about any of this stuff anymore and when i grab that bag I am out to shoot and deliver and it does that without wishing this firmware did that or something else. I care about my Art and getting images and what i have really left behind and you all know I have been first out of the gate M8,DMR and others but know i refuse to fall into that trap of trying to be the guy to fix world issues with immature gear. It brought me nothing but heartaches and failed imagery . I'm just done with that and yes i am very much a right brain person . Art is number one the rest is sometimes even worthless to think about. I don't buy into a lot of tech stuff until I can see and process the images and let my eyes do the talking. In all honesty since I bought the Phase I care less and less about the gear because I am not having any issues that wants me to jump into another frying pan. I'm just not willing to risk my money or time anymore. Just no value in it.

I think the key is find a system that works and does not have warts. Compromising on some features is one thing but warts is a whole different ballgame.
This is the key isn't it Guy?

It is actually the reason for this thread.

Equipment makers are in such a competitive frenzy they've resorted to releasing gear before its time. Part of that is our fault ... we keep buying it.

Sometimes we do so because of residual selective memory :) A sort of Pollyanna mindset of trust driven by a company's past rather than their present. The M8 vividly come to mind ... great M6s, M7s and then finally a M8! Oops!

This is not to be confused with hiccups with a specific camera or piece of gear ... it's more about design flaws and engineering boo-boos. "One ofs" isn't the same as "All ofs" being released to a trusting public.

I also allow for my own stupidity when first working with a relatively new system. However, I have enough experience to separate those issues from real ones pretty quickly.

As you mentioned, Phase One isn't immune to this and you wisely waited until it was the way you wanted it before committing to your current camera.

I have a few similar feelings about the H4D/60 I have on order. I was willing to wait, and got something else in the meantime to get the job done. However, I am a bit concerned that the H4D/60 firmware is still in need of updating ... with promises of "soon" ... Hasselblad's "soon" has become somewhat suspect as of late.

Decision time is almost upon me.

Get the S2, or a take a world tour on the Queen Mary ... or add the cash to my Volvo trade value and get a new BMW. My wife votes for staying pat with what I have and getting her a 17" Mikimoto Black South Sea Pearl necklace ... which may pay a bigger return than the S2 :ROTFL:

-Marc
 

David K

Workshop Member
Get the S2, or a take a world tour on the Queen Mary ... or add the cash to my Volvo trade value and get a new BMW. My wife votes for staying pat with what I have and getting her a 17" Mikimoto Black South Sea Pearl necklace ... which may pay a bigger return than the S2 :ROTFL:

-Marc
A friend of mine made an observation about a business I was involved in (not photography) that stuck with me. He said "it's not about the money... its about the money". Not sure if this translates out of context but what I'm getting at is that it's difficult, if not impossible, to make these high ticket decisions in a vacuum. Not only does the S2 compete against other brands... it competes against a more expensive car, a vacation or a gift to a loved one. Then there's the hidden cost (at least for most married guys)... "if we can afford that Leica S2 then we can afford (fill in the blank)". So Marc, if you decide to stick with S2 I wouldn't cross that cruise or that necklace off my list too quickly :)
 

jonoslack

Active member
Then there's the hidden cost (at least for most married guys)... "if we can afford that Leica S2 then we can afford (fill in the blank)". So Marc, if you decide to stick with S2 I wouldn't cross that cruise or that necklace off my list too quickly :)
:ROTFL: Only too true David - but then this cuts both ways - for me:

"If we could afford that horse lorry we can afford this S2" worked perfectly well.
 

etrigan63

Active member
This is a very fascinating discussion especially for me as I do more and more camera reviews (I have two on the cooker right now). I often look at other reviews and compare my findings to theirs in my head before I put pen to paper (fingers to keyboard?). I find it helps me to not be repetitive and allows me to write with a fresh perspective.

But you want to know what really got me about this thread? The title. I think it would make a great title for a collaborative book we can all contribute to and publish. LUF has done this twice (I was fortunate to be included in the first one) and I think we should do one too. As a plus, we should have a page for each contributor and the gear he/she uses.

What do you guys think and sorry for the thread hijack.
 

fotografz

Well-known member
This is a very fascinating discussion especially for me as I do more and more camera reviews (I have two on the cooker right now). I often look at other reviews and compare my findings to theirs in my head before I put pen to paper (fingers to keyboard?). I find it helps me to not be repetitive and allows me to write with a fresh perspective.

But you want to know what really got me about this thread? The title. I think it would make a great title for a collaborative book we can all contribute to and publish. LUF has done this twice (I was fortunate to be included in the first one) and I think we should do one too. As a plus, we should have a page for each contributor and the gear he/she uses.

What do you guys think and sorry for the thread hijack.
Only if the MFD manufactures paid for it, they have all my money ... :D

-Marc
 

Jack

Sr. Administrator
Staff member
Marc,

I think given the title of the thread, the answer is pretty simple: If your tool (camera) of choice helps you translate your vision to an image you're happy with, then it's good. OTOH, if it gets in the way of achieving that end, then it's not so good.

The rub is sometimes a tool has a certain sex appeal; you feel better about yourself because you own and use the new one -- it's popular, it's pretty and everybody wants one. The fact it makes you feel so good about owning it can get in the way of the fact that it isn't doing anything better than the tool it replaced; even may have you overlooking the fact it's not doing as good a job as the tool it replaced. But you feel good about owning it, so it becomes more like a piece of art or jewelry and less a tool. If that happens, maybe we just need to put it in proper context to enjoy it?

PS Edit: I write this at a time in my own artistic life that I feel comfortable with my existing tools, and the older I get, the more I realize how nice just being comfortable feels. No my tools aren't perfect, but I've never found one that was. My level of comfort comes first from the realization that my current tools are still a lot (LOT) better than I am, and next that I do not need to spend the slightest bit of time learning their various intricacies.

Cheers,
 

fotografz

Well-known member
Marc,

I think given the title of the thread, the answer is pretty simple: If your tool (camera) of choice helps you translate your vision to an image you're happy with, then it's good. OTOH, if it gets in the way of achieving that end, then it's not so good.

The rub is sometimes a tool has a certain sex appeal; you feel better about yourself because you own and use the new one -- it's popular, it's pretty and everybody wants one. The fact it makes you feel so good about owning it can get in the way of the fact that it isn't doing anything better than the tool it replaced; even may have you overlooking the fact it's not doing as good a job as the tool it replaced. But you feel good about owning it, so it becomes more like a piece of art or jewelry and less a tool. If that happens, maybe we just need to put it in proper context to enjoy it?
Well Jack, if it were primarily the sex appeal, I would've already paid for it :ROTFL:

If for the "jewlery effect" it would be a waste since not one person I know (other than Irakly, and unfortunately my wife), and most certainly no client, even knows what a Leica is ;) Actually, a lot more people know what a Hasselblad is.

Most importantly, as a tool, I gave myself enough time to actually use it ... both in comparison to my current H4D/40 which is no slouch ... and in the type of environments I shoot in using a 35mm DSLR.

My original premiss from a year ago hasn't changed. Can this S2 replace the 35mm DSLR and CMOS sensor, AND the smaller CCD sensor MFD I use outside the studio? A year ago the S2 wasn't there ... functionally, the system components I needed, or in terms of the image character. For me and my creative needs it appears it now is, or darned close.

On my other thread about the S2 specifically ... that's the criteria of evaluation. Can I go from shooting a big shot that is destined to be printed quite large, or severely crop a shot ... to more candid and spontaneous work?

Currently two different kits does get in the way of the end result and is a hassle to manage ... where one wouldn't. I know this for a fact because I've used just one kit that can functionally do it all ... the Sony. I just creatively do not like the files as much as MFD CCD files.

The acid test will be tomorrow when I shoot an engagement session in Ann Arbor for a high-end client that is a gate way to social connections that'll help lift me out of the mid-range client strata. Trust me, I will have the back-up at the ready ... and if this camera falters even a bit it will be history.

Thanks Jack, a clarity check is always welcome.

-Marc
 

jlm

Workshop Member
Here is a variant point of view

This topic really does not need a date, could be from 10 years ago. Furthermore, there are many very successful photogs who have been such for many years and whose work did and will continue to succeed regardless of tech developments. I don't think the gear race is as important as we make it out to be, except, as Mojo pointed out...$40k! And Guy, commenting on the inverse relationship between bulletproof and new.
 

Jack

Sr. Administrator
Staff member
The acid test will be tomorrow when I shoot an engagement session in Ann Arbor for a high-end client that is a gate way to social connections that'll help lift me out of the mid-range client strata. Trust me, I will have the back-up at the ready ... and if this camera falters even a bit it will be history.

Thanks Jack, a clarity check is always welcome.
My pleasure. And let's just hope the S2 does not falter -- but if it does, let's further hope it's something you notice at the time it happens and not afterward when you're reviewing the files...
 

Uaiomex

Member
It's funny Marc but I was thinking the same thing this morning. Usually all my gear works as expected. RobGalbraith and lately Diglloyd have disclosed this off the wall imperfections. I don't say they're lying and I bet they're doing it in the best honesty. No equipment (not even in Nasa) is flawless when it leaves factory. I believe real life shooting endless variances mask most flaws in equipment. However, I'm glad that people like them fire-test the equipment we all buy. Merry xmas.
-Eduardo
 

Bill Gordon

New member
I just have to add my comments to this longer than necessary posting.....I have read each comment...the very long and tedious as well as the short replies..I recognized that most if not all of the posters on replies are either Professional Photographers....or......wish they were Professional Photographers.......I happen to know one of the people that have added their comment and whom I admire and I would suggest to you that that person probably knows more about photography than all the rest of you. That person constantly posts results that are stunning and can reflect the character of the instrument being used. I finished this feeling that I was back at DPReview listening to a bunch of idiots who have a piece of equipment that has more to offer than any of them will be able to use or understand. Having a well rounded education with perhaps a number of degrees to prove your intelligence.....or.......lack of that does not make a great photographer.

I have always said that "it is not the camera that takes the picture...it is the person behind the camera that takes the picture."

I apologize to any person who might be offended but I do think that you have spent to much time discussing a subject that most people could never wish to own......a Leica S-2 DSLR camera.
 
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