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Gear & Our Art: 2011?

fotografz

Well-known member
So Do I - the best retort seems to be that:
It's like telling a chef that he must have great saucepans
Oh, I give folks the benefit of the doubt when they say something like that. Most people only have little P&S with Wall-Mart 4X6s as a point of reference. If they like the photo they don't always know why ... just that it's clearer and prettier than what they usually see.

My housekeeper is a big fan of my photos :eek: ... and when she saw the big test print of the church interior at Christmas time she quipped that I have a good camera. "Glad you like it" ... and you know, she's right ... I do have a good camera :ROTFL:

Mostly she is fishing around for me to give her a print ... which I usually do, and she runs right out and frames it ... which is more than what I do with them :)

-Marc
 
Depends what you want from life I guess, Photography means pretty much everything to me so I bought a blad! I find it funny when people say oh that cost 3 times as much as my car... well it cost 3 times as much as my car too :p
 

fotografz

Well-known member
Depends what you want from life I guess, Photography means pretty much everything to me so I bought a blad! I find it funny when people say oh that cost 3 times as much as my car... well it cost 3 times as much as my car too :p
:ROTFL:

Like my buddy said when plunking down a huge wad of cash for a system he could barely afford ... "Hey, it's what I do ... I don't want to do something else."

-Marc
 

jonoslack

Active member
Depends what you want from life I guess, Photography means pretty much everything to me so I bought a blad! I find it funny when people say oh that cost 3 times as much as my car... well it cost 3 times as much as my car too :p
Exactly Will - and it's what I'd do as well . . . . If I didn't prefer to use my M9! (but my M9 kit is certainly worth more than my car).
 

David K

Workshop Member
Depends what you want from life I guess, Photography means pretty much everything to me so I bought a blad! I find it funny when people say oh that cost 3 times as much as my car... well it cost 3 times as much as my car too :p
I try not to be judgmental but spending 3x the cost of your car on photo gear indicates some seriously distorted values. My personal limit is 2x the cost of my car :)
 

GMB

Active member
So Do I - the best retort seems to be that:
It's like telling a chef that he must have great saucepans
I have three hobbies: photography, golf, and cooking. My photography is decent, my golf...well forget it :cry:, and my cooking very good according to the comments I receive from others. For each of them you need tools. And for each of them the result depends on the combination of the tools applied and the skills of the person using them.

Give a good cook (photographer) a good steak (object to photograph) and good steel frying pan on strong gas stove (a good camera with a good lens) and you get a great dish (photo). Give the same to a mediocre cook (photographer) and you get an mediocre or at best ok dish. Give the good cook the good steak and a mediocre pan (that does not keep heat) and stove (that does not generate enough heat) you are likely to get an ok dish but not the great dish that you would otherwise get. (Same thing with golf: A top professional would still beat the average amateur if you give him equipment from 20 years ago but he would not be able to compete with other pros using today's equipment.)

I find it quite normal--and indeed reassuring--that if people see print done on a good printer with a good paper from a file generated by a good camera ask "Wow--what camera did you use??" It shows that the difference in quality is visible even for the untrained eye and not only for the gear nerds.

This becomes even more obvious if image size is part of your artistic expression. For many photos the artistic expression depends on the size (sometimes also on the manner in which the photo is printed or framed). Without the right equipment, you cannot produce these types of photos.
 

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
Very Well said indeed.

Have to say as I am pouring through every image I have taken in the last 8 years or so rebuilding my web site even the small jpegs i can see the difference in quality between ALL those systems I had over that time frame and folks that know me it is a lot of systems but the MF stuff just jumps at me. The thing is I have to as a Pro justify these expenses in a different way than the hobbyist. I need ROI or it simply will not work. Now people think money here wrong, I need to make clients happy or I will never see them again. I literarily have clients ask Guy you coming with the big gun as we need to go large on this one. I educate my clients on the tech stuff so they know what they are getting and how to use it to their advantage. I laugh internally when people see this big Phase gear sitting on a tripod or around my neck with those comments Man that must take good pictures . I honestly get it all the time and i do answer them politely and if I have time explain it and you get the okay that is way cool comment. We have to remember as a serious hobbyist or Pro it is not about that but it is about getting the best quality for the needs you are after for yourself and/or clients. There is nothing worse than saying damn i wish i shot that one with my MF kit and you didn't or you say to yourself damn I wish i could make a much bigger print from this but it is going to fall apart. I been down both paths way to often and it is not a easy pill to swallow. No more I have a 24 inch wide printer sitting behind me and i can do anything I want now without any regrets. If i need bigger it goes out and my files can do it.
 

Woody Campbell

Workshop Member
Drifting off subject ... but we're dinosaurs at heart, huh Bob? ;)

I still have my wet work room intact ... filtered water, big sink, timers now forever set to 0, great Kaiser Medium Format enlarger with top Rodenstock lenses ... it all looks like Miss Havisham's wedding room ... just as I left it on the last day I made prints all those years ago.:(

My plan was to return to it once I retired ... so much for the plans of mice and men :rolleyes:

-Marc
Turned mine into a wine cellar. Gear is heavily wrapped in plastic and stored in our barn.
 

Mitchell

New member
Most great artists have been intensely involved with their media and tools, playing with them, exploring the edge of their limitations, using them in novel ways, or using new and novel tools. The exploration and skill seems to have been the important thing. The choice of tool (i.e. limitation), though of intense interest to the artist, has has less impact on the value of the creative product.

With the internet, and all these new and amazing tools that can do so many things so well headed our way, one can get a little lost. If we change equipment too often, we can't find the edge of its limitations. Or impose our own forms, i.e. limits, like writing in sonnets.

Generally, the cameras now are not the limitations. (The edge of just how much detail can be captured can get tedious. There seem to be way more technically perfect images around, than artistically satisfying ones, and certainly more tech than art talk.)

That said, it is healthy and vital for artists and craftsmen to obsess about, and explore their tools. But, the internet and the pace of change in the tools has shifted the balance too far.

Best,

Mitchell
 

HenryDove

New member
I find myself agreeing with so much that has been posted in this thread, so thanks to all for your thoughts! For my part, as a recent-ish convert to MFD (18m ago - H3D-50 since it has the HTS and lets me use all the H system lenses I had for my H1 which now sets unused at the back of a cupboard - I don't doubt that Phase and Leica are capable of equal results, but having tilt with the HTS is like 5x4 for me, and reminds me of my old Rollei SL66 - remember them?), I find that I can get all the quality that I used to get with 5x4 film but without that nagging thought that each and every shot (2 sheets a time) has to count - as a result, I think I'm learning to experiment more, and try things I simply would not have tried before. I love the reassurance that the histogram gives, but not the tiny "polaroid" we get to look at (I could take a laptop, but there's only so much gear I want to carry!), focussing and sharpness are a whole new game I'm having to learn again despite what I thought was good technique!! But then, looking back at the scans of 5x4 trannies, I find that when I look at them at 100%, and not the finished print, my technique was not as good as I thought it was - MFD certainly makes you a good deal more picky than you were before! I do like the control raw processing gives you, but I don't like feeling back in beginners class and wondering if there's something I'm missing - film and devs seemed so much easier! But I don't miss waiting in labs for the A sheets to come back and then discussing changes for the B sheets - it took too long and finding labs who could do it was becoming harder, even in London.

For 2011, I'm hoping to learn more about using my 'new' gear so that I can stop thinking about it and get with what I'm really interested in - making pictures that please me and, hopefully, others to keep the running costs of my hobby down. A new 24" printer wouldn't go amiss either - both Canon and Epson have models that give incredible results which will finally tempt me out of the chemistry I've spent 30 years learning to use!!

All the best for 2011 - I hope it brings great picture opportunities to all!

Henry
 

Ben Rubinstein

Active member
My wife bought me a new high end wok for my birthday and a new frying pan for chanuka. Yes the food is better, more evenly cooked, much more actually, that makes for better taste and a better experience in the mouth. More importantly however, they are an incredible pleasure to use, it's so joyful to cook with them and to clean them afterwards, I have a huge grin on my face when I cook with them.

My cameras (pair of 5Dc's) are now 5 years old, battered, scratched and dented beyond belief. I replaced the shutter on one of them today, it died in battle doing a charity gig after well over 100,000 frames. With the new shutter and a new LCD I replaced recently due to 5 years of rain damage, I intend to have these two bodies continue for another 5 years, no kidding. They give me pretty much all the IQ I need and after this many years and that many frames I can shoot them with my eyes shut, they are a pure extension of my hands whether I'm shooting weddings, architecture, street or landscape. Although new cameras on the market tickle my fancy, there has been nothing and there is nothing currently forecast that I can imagine would pursuade me that I needed to upgrade, even a brief flirtation with a 1DsIII, the most ergonomic camera I've ever used didn't last longer than 6 months before I decided that the 5D was still, more than good enough for my needs.

But 5 years ago you bet I read every single review, every single forum comment, I had the manual memorised before I had ever seen the camera in the flesh. I spent a year sending them back to canon until the focus was up to my standards.

Yes a camera is a tool, yes it's not the camera that makes the art. However, for me at this point to say that I bought a camera 5 years ago which I intend to use for a further 5 years depended on research and lots of what Marc is going through now.

I could point to my own situation and boast that the whole technological game, all the specs and reviews are nonsense, especially when an underspeced camera can provide a decade of pro service. It would be a lie however, without all the soul searching, credit card limit checking and all those reviews, would I be as satisfied today? Not a chance.

I can't remember ever talking specs with my fellow pro photographers, if at all it's usually lenses and radio slaves. Most buy a camera, use it mostly to death then upgrade. The digital revolution made things more complicated in the beginning as cameras appeared, bi-annually, which significantly reduced the very real compromises we accepted to be on the cutting edge of digital. I do not think however that this following decade will see all those 5D's and D700's, pro workhorses, disposed of anywhere near as quickly for all the new gimmicks the Canon, Nikon, Sony and all the rest try and sell us.

Guy and Marc excluded of course.. :ROTFL::ROTFL::ROTFL:
 

Bill Gordon

New member
My wife bought me a new high end wok for my birthday and a new frying pan for chanuka. Yes the food is better, more evenly cooked, much more actually, that makes for better taste and a better experience in the mouth. More importantly however, they are an incredible pleasure to use, it's so joyful to cook with them and to clean them afterwards, I have a huge grin on my face when I cook with them.

My cameras (pair of 5Dc's) are now 5 years old, battered, scratched and dented beyond belief. I replaced the shutter on one of them today, it died in battle doing a charity gig after well over 100,000 frames. With the new shutter and a new LCD I replaced recently due to 5 years of rain damage, I intend to have these two bodies continue for another 5 years, no kidding. They give me pretty much all the IQ I need and after this many years and that many frames I can shoot them with my eyes shut, they are a pure extension of my hands whether I'm shooting weddings, architecture, street or landscape. Although new cameras on the market tickle my fancy, there has been nothing and there is nothing currently forecast that I can imagine would pursuade me that I needed to upgrade, even a brief flirtation with a 1DsIII, the most ergonomic camera I've ever used didn't last longer than 6 months before I decided that the 5D was still, more than good enough for my needs.

But 5 years ago you bet I read every single review, every single forum comment, I had the manual memorised before I had ever seen the camera in the flesh. I spent a year sending them back to canon until the focus was up to my standards.

Yes a camera is a tool, yes it's not the camera that makes the art. However, for me at this point to say that I bought a camera 5 years ago which I intend to use for a further 5 years depended on research and lots of what Marc is going through now.

I could point to my own situation and boast that the whole technological game, all the specs and reviews are nonsense, especially when an underspeced camera can provide a decade of pro service. It would be a lie however, without all the soul searching, credit card limit checking and all those reviews, would I be as satisfied today? Not a chance.

I can't remember ever talking specs with my fellow pro photographers, if at all it's usually lenses and radio slaves. Most buy a camera, use it mostly to death then upgrade. The digital revolution made things more complicated in the beginning as cameras appeared, bi-annually, which significantly reduced the very real compromises we accepted to be on the cutting edge of digital. I do not think however that this following decade will see all those 5D's and D700's, pro workhorses, disposed of anywhere near as quickly for all the new gimmicks the Canon, Nikon, Sony and all the rest try and sell us.

Guy and Marc excluded of course.. :ROTFL::ROTFL::ROTFL:
Ben, you summed it all up for me!! Spoken like a real pro who found his comfort zone five years ago!!:deadhorse:
 

Ben Rubinstein

Active member
It took more than one thread like this though 5 years ago to get there, that's the point. For all the people who back then on FM called me a pixel peeper or a techy not a photographer or said 'it's not the camera' like you did above, without all this, I wouldn't be where I am today.

I learnt a huge amount from Marc (the OP) over the years back to the photo.net days. I have tremendous respect for him, specifically for his photography. If I was to get married again today he would be the photographer and in my business (wedding photography) I've seen the gamut of the greats. I respect his art, his vision, his philosophy. As such I respect his dilemma as that of an artist and a professional rather than that of a gear head.
 

jonoslack

Active member
Ben, you summed it all up for me!! Spoken like a real pro who found his comfort zone five years ago!!:deadhorse:
HI Bill (and Ben too)
quite right - I do agree, my comfort zone seems to hinge around my A900 (over 2 years) and my M9s (18 months) . . . . and there are battle scars. (smaller cameras come and go).

But as Ben points out - when one is changing tack, then these discussions ARE useful - and actually I think they're quite good fun too.

I went through a recent ache as to whether or not to climb aboard the MF bandwagon and get myself an S2 (lucky to have the possibility). I decided not to (much to my wife's astonishment) - but I'm still interested in the discussions.

As for the Saucepan analogy - it was meant to be funny (at least Bob thought so). But it wasn't meant to imply that equipment wasn't important - whether it's a camera or a wok or a saucepan - of course it is - simply that it's generally not the greatest part of a successful work of art (in which, of course, I include a good meal).

all the best
 

mediumcool

Active member
You get let off for being grumpy today (because of the cricket)
Johnathan

I’m glad that the Poms won (been a long time between drinks after all ;) ) so long as it means that sh1t Ponting gets removed as Oz captain.

While not a fan of any sport except horizontal folk-dancing, I do believe the personalities in both cricket teams aren’t as interesting as they were years ago (it may simply be old age on my part).

43 celsius here for New Year (I shall be staying home in the air-conditioning working in C!) ... :)
 

Jack

Sr. Administrator
Staff member
For 2011, I'm hoping to learn more about using my 'new' gear so that I can stop thinking about it and get with what I'm really interested in - making pictures that please me and, hopefully, others
Great first post sentiment --- Welcome to the forum Henry!
 
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