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Getting a handle on resolutions differences

EH21

Member
David,
I hope what you say is true for the new Leica R, and also that it supports all my R glass as I am still holding on to my 35-70 elmarit. Would be a killer lens with full frame. But I won't hold my breath for Apple to provide any kind of support for R10 files, and I won't expect the R10 to have ISO 6400 either.
Eric
 

Jack

Sr. Administrator
Staff member
I'll just add (for the gazillionth time) that there is a lot more to MFv35mm than number of pixels alone.
This is such an important statement, it probably deserves to be a permanent sticky in this forum... My corollary is that at present, NO current 35mm DSLR comes close to matching any of the past few generations of digital backs for total image quality, regardless of number of pixels.

Cheers,
 

robmac

Well-known member
R10: If we assume for the sake of argument one does happen, the 10s market is a narrow slice between the D3/X, 1DS3, etc., and MFDB kits. Premium price, uber premium glass, etc- we all know the dynamics.

The problem, unlike a x years ago, is that the camera's potential market is getting narrower and narrower - from bottom-up (as expected) but also now from the top-down.

As the price/performance curve accelerates downwards on DSLRs, the R10 has to be that much better in terms of IQ to justify a hefty premium over the D_ or 1D_ in terms of the hardware only - let alone to overcome aura surrounding their service/support structure vs that of Canon or Nikon. One could also argue that the D3 has introduced a new downward step-wise move in the higher-end DSLR price/performance expectation by customers. It has certainly poured some gas into the fire, which makes things that more difficult for ANY new entry.

Realistically, the SOLE advantage the R10 would have vs competition will be low-to-mid ISO level (safe assumption) IQ. Not fps, uber ISO or AF performance - but by delivering a MFDB-esque IQ advantage vs. what one can expect from existing top-drawer DSLRs.

The new twist is the apparent realization from MFD kit players that their easiest market share increases will come from looking DOWNWARD not upward as seen with 16-22 MP entry kits and large discounts on higher-end kits that in turn see more used gear released into the market.

In short, MF players look like they are pushing the concept of getting a high-end DSLR customer into the product line at a (relatively) painless entry point with the hope of keeping them as they move upstream. Entry MF kits also offer the advantage that used glass is plentiful and ranges from cheap (M645) to only modestly expensive (in Leica terms) and most can be used across platforms. Toss in optional extended warranties with back swaps during a mechanical crisis, a very professional dealer support structure (from what I see) and the compelling case for ANY uber-premium DSLR gets tougher and tougher.

Take the preceding and factor in the potential need to launch a line of new AF glass/system plus the hobbling of any teething issues with a craftsman-sized and SLOW service & support structure and the business case (and thus the financial/strategic wisdom to Leica) for any 'R10' gets worse with every passing quarter.

In short, there are the decisions that many of us, to varying degrees, would love to see vs. those that, in all reality, might better ensure that Leica, as we know it, will be around and thriving X years fwd.
 
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Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
Just as an example Jack is selling his ZD back today at 6k i think. If one wanted to jump into it very easily right now add a Mamiya AFDII body and 80mm lens and it is still cheaper than a Canon 1dsMKIII. Than for another 1500 hundred you can get 3 more lenses. So a entry into this would be about 9k . Entry into a Canon would actually be more. Now the better imager is the ZD. My point is it is not that hard to jump in and maintain the quality of MF and this is going to change even more towards MF because of the price of the MF stuff is getting more price competitive. We just saw a new H3/31 with body and lens at 18k and Phase P30 plus with new body and lens at maybe slightly higher after all the deals going on. Now your looking at 9k with lens and 18k and starting with a new system. 7 years ago when i had all the Hassy V stuff i was looking at 45k for a back. Times have changed a lot in the MF world both on price and better backs. So the market is is getting tighter and prices are becoming more competitive between the systems. So for folks that have been shooting DSLR's looking to move it is not that drastic a price difference it once was. The Leica R10 needs to find a home in between them or it will be a bust. Canon and Nikon are very competitive right now with all the bells and whistles going on which most people like, I don't but that is another thread. LOL . For Leica to make it with this R10 it has to very compelling that it will out run Nikon and canon and get that much closer to MF but still maintain 35mm style of shooting. I think that is there only hope here is to ride the pine between DSLR's and MF. Otherwise folks will go Canon Nikon or just move up to MF.
 

LJL

New member
Guy,
I agree here. At one point, I was holding hope for the R10, and still do, but in my assessment, it probably is NOT going to outdo the upper end Canon or Nikon offerings for most things, except non-AA filtered image files. At a price point that Leica will most likely hit the market, the MF solutions are not going to be that much more of a jump, and will be providing a lot more overall for IQ, unless the R10 is MF. Just a bit larger than present 35mm is not going to be all that much better, but the lack of AA filter could help a fair amount.

For the costs, a MF set-up will do better for the IQ needed, and keeping a decent DSLR system for other needed shooting will most likely be the choice of a lot of users. Rob's points about Leica service hits home with respect to Canon or Nikon as DSLR choices, and now the MF folks are also being very competitive in both offerings and service through dealers. The R10 may be a very interesting offering, but it is sailing into a very strong headwind at this point. I for one have lost a lot of my initial interest in it at this point. If it cannot keep up with Canon or Nikon on AF, speed, high ISO, etc., nor MF for overall image, where will it find a home? Most likely not in my kit.

LJ
 

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
I think that is the key although maybe a very powerful tool but where will it sit in the market is my concern for them. It has to do something special or may just get buried in no man's land. What I think it needs to do image wise is beat the pants off Nikon and Canon but still be price wise equal to it. Make it the best DSLR out there because that is the most popular format.
 
Just to stir things up (I'll get ready to duck), is there not a possibility that a larger-pixel 16-bit Leica would have better noise characteristics than the current 14-bit ZD back?
 

LJL

New member
Just to stir things up (I'll get ready to duck), is there not a possibility that a larger-pixel 16-bit Leica would have better noise characteristics than the current 14-bit ZD back?
A lot of things may be possible. A full frame 35mm, or a bit larger, in a CCD with no AA filter, but maybe a very nicely tuned set of microlenses and at 16-bit may be able to deliver really stunning results, and at ISO 800.....maybe a bit higher. Would that rival or look better than the current ZD back? Quite possibly could.

That is a stack of "maybes", and not beyond reach for Leica. "Will it happen?" is another question. Not saying Leica could not pull it off, but will all of the other pieces needed (decent, fast AF, good WB, decent frame speed, etc.) also come along in the package at a price that does not have folks starting to look more seriously at "that next jump" to MF? That is the part that is unknown right now. There is little doubt that 35mm, as a format is more popular and "easier" to use for most folks. It has its limits, so the question still remains if Leica can squeeze itself into that market with something that delivers outstanding images, works fast and pretty flawlessly, and does not cost so much that MF starts looking like a better choice for the buyer.

LJ
 
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