The GetDPI Photography Forum

Great to see you here. Join our insightful photographic forum today and start tapping into a huge wealth of photographic knowledge. Completing our simple registration process will allow you to gain access to exclusive content, add your own topics and posts, share your work and connect with other members through your own private inbox! And don’t forget to say hi!

Medium Format, Taking The First Steps

David Schneider

New member
Since I've recently gone through this, here's a couple of factors:

1. What's your budget? Advice isn't much good if it's out of your wallet range. If you are spending less than you paid for your D3x, you probably won't get digital results better than your D3x, especially if you need iso over 200.

2. What do you shoot? If you are a people photographer and you're getting suggestions from landscape folks, you need to factor that in. Info needs to fit into a certain context.

3. Return On Investment? You maybe able to get something cheap, use it and sell it for what you paid or not take a big loss. You might be able to find something at the top of your budget and it may or may not take a big hit when you upgrade, but you may have save a ton of time (which is equal to money if you are a professional) especially if you've gotten good glass which you'll hold on to. But again, if budget is less than D3x, well, I think results will be a turn off.

Your mileage may vary.
 

djonesii

Workshop Member
I got my feet wet in MF with a Fuji Range finder, the auto focus ones.

Check out KEH, you can find one for right about $500, and at that price, they hold their value quite well, and the Fuji lens is great.

From there, I decided that I needed to go digital ( don't ever forget that abandon hope thing)

My choice was an AFD-II off this very forum. I have a 45/80/150mm kit of primes that are every bit as good as any of my Nikon glass, but I don't have the new 24-70 or the new 24 or 85 .... still the Mamiya lenses are every bit as good if not better than my Nikon 85mm 1.4 AIS and the 55 1.2 AI'd ( Lusting for Jack's 35 when he gets the new 35D ;) )

Now the ZD back is quite simply put a pig when it comes to speed. Both in terms of ISO and frame rate, and it does loose communication with the body at least once every studio shoot. Not a big deal, but a PITA.

The images smoke my D300, hold up well to a D700 and for IQ, given studio lighting, will give a D3X a real run for it's money.

However, the ZD + Mamiya has something the D300/700/3X never get, that is the medium format look and the tonal transitions that the bigger sensor gives. These things are subjective, and NOT IQ issues at all, they are perceived print quality issues, and I can see the differences even at 8x10 .... To me, that is why the slope is so slippery. The film experience hooked me on MF

I shoot as a hobby, rarely print over 16X20, and mostly at 8X10. So a modern P25+ or Aptus 7 would solve the problems of my ZD quite nicely, but with no revenue generated and the ZD making images that are of almost the same quality IN MY SHOOTING conditions .... ISO50/100 1/125, F8-F11 with 5500K strobes I find it really hard to justify the change on anything but emotional reasons. .

As a note, my rig cost around 5K ... INCLUDING lenses..

YMMV ...

Dave
 

Valentin

New member
If I were wanting to dabble in MF film---with the eye towards perhaps moving to digital, I would look at a used Mamiya/Phase body, like these: http://www.captureintegration.com/phase-one/buy/

The body itself (to shoot MF film) is not so important in terms of a "future eye" towards digital, but the ability to hold onto any lenses and use them with a future digital platform is signficant. The Mamiya 645AFD/II/III and Phase AF just need a film back. Once you decide to purchase a MFDB, really the cost of a new/better camera body platform is rather negligible at that point, but being able to use lenses that you have acquired is a big plus. Obviously more recent Mamiya/Phase iterations are more expensive and also a better choice for digital.

That's exactly what I did. I can't justify current prices (ROI) but I would like to get a DB eventually. I got a Mamiya AFDII and shoot film with it. The same body will get a Phase DB without any problems.

So, you can say I'm semi MFD since I scan the film :).
 

Karlo

New member
Just wanted to chime in. Thanks to these forums ( your fault) i have finally made a leap of faith and got into medium format.
I really did have no idea fromwhere to start and here are my 2 cents. I tought Hasselblad is the only maker till i read about mamiya pentax etc.
I am now an owner of a Phase One Af camera, two mamiya lenses and am currently borrowing my friends ZD back. Currently looking at the prices an how the system works and the upgrade paths possible it seemed like a logical thing to do. Thanks to Dave from Capture integration and their awesome prices ( two times cheaper than on ebay) I am already happily shooting my 4th film roll and waiting for some interesting prices on second hand or refurbed backs.
I suggest you do the same... You wont regret it.
( sorry about spelling and form im getting used to my ipad )

Karlo
 

GrahamWelland

Subscriber & Workshop Member
I'll offer a counterpoint to the medium format route, especially if you think that film will get you better results with your D3x. It won't. Well not unless you're prepared to put a lot more cash into the analog side of things such as a decent scanner and all of the associated workflow.

If image quality is your goal then you might want to try to get most out of the D3x today rather than going down the MF digital route unless you've got a much larger budget. I'd put my money into the very best glass which would mean the Nikon 24/45/85 PC-E T/S lenses, 14-24/2.8 or alternatively a set of Zeiss ZF manual focus lenses. Money spent there will make more of a difference than changing camera platforms. The D3x is a great camera but it also needs to be shot carefully, locked down on a tripod with mirror lockup, remote release, and with AF fine tuned or manual focus glass. Do that and you'll find that you'll need a big jump in medium format to better it. In case you couldn't tell, I really liked my D3x and it cost a LOT of money to improve upon it (which I'm very very happy about even if my wallet isn't btw :thumbs:).

Now if you can afford the bigger jump to a more current digital solution, then the Phase / Leaf / Hassy digital backs will get you sensors without AA filters (hence sharper), full 16bit images which have richer tonality, plus the very best image processing money can buy. Whichever platform you look at you'll also need to figure on spending some money on 'digital' glass to get the best out of it. I have a range of Mamiya glass for my 645 AFD II & 645DF and the non-digital lenses, whilst good, aren't up to the sharpness and overall quality of the newer D lenses.

Now if you really want to make an image quality leap, technical cameras and lenses are the slippery slope that'll suck you in and your wallet dry. The glass is just phenomenal but you really are in manual control territory at that point. Personally, given that I'm shooting landscapes for pleasure, it's the most rewarding experience compared to shooting with a DSLR whether 35mm digital or medium format.

If you just want to dabble with medium format for fun, shooting some nice 120/220 slides, then any of the camera systems you mentioned will produce excellent results but remember you'll need a scanner to go with it unless you don't mind projecting slides. Better than the D3x? I very much doubt it without a scanning solution.

There's a reason why this forum has Dante's "Abandon Hope All Ye Who Enter Here" in the title. :ROTFL:
 

dick

New member
Good MF bodies that can be used with MFD are expensive, but you could get a good lens for your budget!

I think that Hasselblads are good value for money, or (depending on your application) you could forget about MFDSLRs and buy a technical camera.
 
R

Ronan

Guest
If image quality is your goal then you might want to try to get most out of the D3x today rather than going down the MF digital route unless you've got a much larger budget. I'd put my money into the very best glass which would mean the Nikon 24/45/85 PC-E T/S lenses, 14-24/2.8
I already have all the nikkor lenses i need :D

14-24 2.8, 24-70 2.8, 70-200 2.8 are my workhorses. Also have a 17-55 2.8 thats on my D300, used to have a 200-400 f4 but sold it since it rarely got used. I also have a 60 and 105 micro lens and a 45mm tilt shift lens. Oh and of course a the usual 50mm and 85mm lenses with a assortment of flashes and studio heads. DSLR equipment isn't a problem, we are two in the studio, and my colleague has been around for awhile :)

To everyone, i am digesting everything put, thank you :)

One other thing... i have recently seen claims by a NYC photographer that he gets better results with his MF film camera than his D3x. He claims to scan the film to around 40-45 megapixel. I have tried to contact him with more information, but never received a response. Any idea whats up with that? Locally they can digitalize MF film to 16 MP at max (and at quite a cost).

Thank You.
 

GrahamWelland

Subscriber & Workshop Member
When it comes to lenses, all things are not equal even when considering the Nikon "Holy Trinity" ... the new 24, 45 & 85 PC-E T/S lenses are a step up from the AF zooms, even the very best Nikons that you listed. The 14-24 is possibly the exception.

As regards the MF film being better than the D3x, well I think that you'll need to understand better what is being used to scan the film and what type and format that film is. I'm not saying that 6x7 or 6x9 isn't outstanding but you're not going to get the best results unless you have a decent scan and that scanner is going to cost a lot more than your budget to give files comparable to D3x files. Btw, I'm not trying to start a film vs digital war - it's a Coke vs Pepsi thing in my view.

Anyway, lot's of options and opportunities here for you. Good luck with your search.
 
R

Ronan

Guest
When it comes to lenses, all things are not equal even when considering the Nikon "Holy Trinity" ... the new 24, 45 & 85 PC-E T/S lenses are a step up from the AF zooms, even the very best Nikons that you listed. The 14-24 is possibly the exception.

As regards the MF film being better than the D3x, well I think that you'll need to understand better what is being used to scan the film and what type and format that film is. I'm not saying that 6x7 or 6x9 isn't outstanding but you're not going to get the best results unless you have a decent scan and that scanner is going to cost a lot more than your budget to give files comparable to D3x files. Btw, I'm not trying to start a film vs digital war - it's a Coke vs Pepsi thing in my view.

Anyway, lot's of options and opportunities here for you. Good luck with your search.
Coke tastes way better :D

Since I'm using the Nikon system, i would never think of buying third party lenses, even Zeiss.

Now i wouldn't mind a D4... and D4x... :LOL:
 

mvirtue

New member
As Dustbank mentioned this is a very slippery slope and not a very cheap one . So you have to see what gains there are for your type of shooting. Me i love MF but i have client needs that also dictate that so just do your homework and see if it makes sense.

Lots of good folks here that give great advice. Okay I'm off to LA check in about 9 hours . Or while I am driving. LOL
Tell me about it...The image quality has me absolutely convince that this was the right move for in the studio for me.
 

Geoff

Well-known member
Honestly?

If you are already set with a D3x plus lenses, etc.. and you are not willing to spend much. I would stay away from MF. I would not read one single topic anymore on this forum area. MF will cost you and always more than you initially planned to spend. Sometimes a lot more.

I am not making a statement one way or the other whether that is worth it or not. Fact is that you will spend much more than you are thinking of.

MF Film? Even though it sounds inexpensive, if you want to get better results than with your D3x you are probably also looking at spending more money than you currently want to.
+1. The D3X sets a good high threshold. Yes, MFDB are better, but not realistically within your budget. Good meticulous technique with the D3X and careful lens selection will bring up the IQ with little cost.

If you want to experience MF quality - try a film camera, and work the scanning side. I doubt overall it will exceed the D3X, but you will see tonal variations that may excite you. To fully exceed the D3X, as others have said, you'll need to get meticulous scans - and used Imacons (even the cheaper 343) aren't easily found. But they could work for you.

Else, you just will be out of your budget. This stuff is really pricey, and while complex, seductive, and really cool, the costs are not reasonable in comparison to the DSLR world.
 

dougpeterson

Workshop Member
Sorry Gentlemen. eStore was on the fritz for two days. Bad timing!

http://www.captureintegration.com/store/phase-one-accessories/

We also rent the AFD1, AFD2, and AFD3.

Office is closed today for inventory/planning. Everyone is back at it on Monday.

Doug Peterson (e-mail Me)
__________________

Head of Technical Services, Capture Integration
Phase One Partner of the Year
Leaf, Leica, Cambo, Arca Swiss, Canon, Apple, Profoto, Broncolor, Eizo & More

National: 877.217.9870 *| *Cell: 740.707.2183
Newsletter | RSS Feed
Buy Capture One 6 at 10% off
 
R

Ronan

Guest
Sorry Gentlemen. eStore was on the fritz for two days. Bad timing!

http://www.captureintegration.com/store/phase-one-accessories/

We also rent the AFD1, AFD2, and AFD3.

Office is closed today for inventory/planning. Everyone is back at it on Monday.
Your prices are AWESOME! I might grab a AFD I to get my feet wet and see where to go from there. At those prices... its kind of a win win situation!

Also, i apologize to everyone for being late responding, i received news late last night my girlfriend's mother had a heart attack (she lives in England, pretty far from here). So for now my priorities just changed greatly.
 
R

Ronan

Guest
I am looking at alternatives...

What do you guys think of 6x7? I have never really looked into it much.

I'm researching Mamiya 7, Pentax 6x7.

What should i know (compared to 645)? Any other bodies i should look at?

Thank You.
 

dougpeterson

Workshop Member
I am looking at alternatives...

What do you guys think of 6x7? I have never really looked into it much.

I'm researching Mamiya 7, Pentax 6x7.

What should i know (compared to 645)? Any other bodies i should look at?
RZ67 is another option.

Mamiya 7 is an amazing camera. However you have to accept/know two things before jumping in:
- zero digital options
- it's a rangefinder, not an SLR (good for some reasons, bad for others - but importantly a very different kind of camera)
 

Valentin

New member
RZ67 is another option.

Mamiya 7 is an amazing camera. However you have to accept/know two things before jumping in:
- zero digital options
- it's a rangefinder, not an SLR (good for some reasons, bad for others - but importantly a very different kind of camera)

And another one: that RZ is as big as your newborn :)
 
R

Ronan

Guest
Thanks, i beleive i'll stick with 645, probably find a good little kit like a Mamiya 645AF/AFD or a 645 Pro TL, all depending of price.

I would get the film scan, hopefully i can find a good place in the states or Canada.

If i see a futur in MF for myself, i will put more funds into something modernish.

Before i spent any money, i will put down what i have found, to make sure theirs no... surprises :p

Thanks Guys :)
 

kuau

Workshop Member
Ronan,
I will chime in here.
Having owned a d3x and all of nikons ts/e lens and 14-24 zoom, I would rethink your statement on 3rd party lenses in this case zeiss. My 6 month experience with the d3x was i only got stellar results with the 85mm ts/e and the 14-24mm, all of the other lenses you mention do not live up to what the d3x needs to shine. Only the zeiss and maybe the new released 24 and 35mm nikon can do the d3x justice. No if you are talking D3 thats another story. All your lens work perfect.

I ended up selling all my nikon stuff and went MF i picked up a used H3D-39 and 4 used HCD lenses. This system smoked the D3x IMHO, yet I moved on from there because I moved to the snow and the hassy has no weather sealing so for 35mm work I do 8 went back to nikon but this time a D3s and for landscape went M9. Loving my M9 btw, again if you don't need af, IMHO the M9 smokes the D3X even when using leicas entry level lenses which I purchased all used.

I have recently got the itch again for MF don't ask me why but went with the Pentax 645D, amazing camera for 40mp now if they can only get there lens lineup in place. To me it handles great, simple to use, weather sealing, i shot with it the other day it was 10 degrees out no problem. If you don't need WA at this point today the 75mm and longer lenses work quite well and all can be had for under 1K, now just have to wait to see if pentax can get there act together on the lens side for this what i consider a really nice camera.

At the end of the day it all depends on what you are really looking for, and for me, I like having the 3 systems now, the m9' for its small size and amazing quality my prints i do at 18x24 look amazing. My D3s for my action stuff in low light conditions, and now my 645d, hopefully will ne making some 24x32 vertical prints soon. I love 4:3 format vertical.

Good luck with you decision

Steven
 
R

Ronan

Guest
I have purchased a Mamiya 645AF kit, already in Canada from a fellow getdpi member (gallery7).

I will see how it goes, i can get the film scans to 16MP, and i believe a local photographer has one of the better Nikon fillm scanner on hand.

If i see a future in it, i will upgrade to a modern MF camera with a digital back.
 
Top