PDN Article: Medium Format's Future (cleared with PDN)

[tetsrfun]

I'd like to know that too. When I read that price I was stunned. I immediately went to the Hasselbladusa.com site and it's listed at $13,995.
*********
That is still a great value(?), considering that the CFV 39 is the same price.

Steve

 

[Dustbak]

@JLM
What you are saying would be true if people would merely be discussing the price of components but in most cases this is directly related to a perceived unreasonable pricing scheme. This is what my reaction is about, I don't recall denying anyone the right of discussing the costs of components now did I? Why would you try to deny my right to write down my idea about this discussion?

I believe I can react whenever I want as long as it is in civilized manner, which I always try to maintain. If you don't like what I say you don't have to read it. Actually do whatever you like, I don't care.

 

[jlm]

no reason to get your tail in a knot

 

[Dustbak]

Allright, point taken.

Maybe some of my aggravation with certain attitudes came into play in my reaction as well. Nevertheless, the main thing in my comment ofcourse is that there is much more to a cost price than the mere raw materials or components.

 

[jlm]

thanks for the polite response

 

[robertwright]

dont forget the whole financing side of this too-when credit exists to float these kinds of number then the market will stand these numbers. When that source of credit is tapped out then the market will have to adapt.

the true cost is related to parts, service, dealer markup, rd, profit, margins, roi and what they can get away with...

I think it is true that technology and capitalism are entertwined: technology makes money flow up, it eliminates jobs because it is efficient, it enables scale effects, it destabilizes markets. Capitalism does the same thing, it makes money flow up, it gives leverage to those who have it to make more of it, it wants to make the process of making money more efficient.

you are seeing a process which Henry Ford encountered, we have workers who can't afford the tools or products of their labour.

Eventually this pressure has to be released, either in a big way or hopefully is smaller ways-

what does this mean? Yeah for the Pentaxes of this world! Leica, not so much

 

[dougpeterson]

Even at the staggering price this stuff costs ... the variety and volume of units sold makes it hard to believe any of them can stay in business.

Phase One has been profitable in all recent years including 2008/2009 when the entire industry was really nailed by the economic downturn. 2010 was a great year for us and 2011 is looking even better.

 

[rhsu]

The whole discussion about what the cost of components is I find ridiculous. It seems it is always brought up by people that cannot afford something and feel they need a justification to claim price reductions are in order. Or believe they are being ripped off in some way or think there is a conspirancy to keep prices above justifiable levels.

I have never asked a chef in a good restaurant about the costs of his ingredients? Or asked a bookstore about the cost of paper and ink,etc.. have any of you?

The notion a lot of people are involved and putting their time and brainwork in and not for philantropic purposes but to be able to make a living seems to be something many forget. Next time I speak to any Hasselblad employee I will also ask what they are making and if they might be willing to cut down so I can get my equipment a bit cheaper. Maybe we could propose to lay off some personnel and see if that makes any difference? I have heard that the building in Denmark is quite nice, I bet they could move to some shed too.

Maybe this is why so many photographers get it served right back. The cost of photography is no more than a decent DSLR isn't it? This world is more and more becoming a place where you are expected to work for free and if you are lucky you might be allowed to charge the costs of your raw materials. Everybody expects the lowest prices and everybody expects to make a decent living. Something has got to give in this scenario. You cannot have it both ways.

Someone else said it before, if it would be that easy to make this kind of stuff there would have been others already offering for lower prices.

Maybe Hasselblad/P1/Leaf & Sinar should offer the ability to buy a sensor from them and let you try to built your own?...

Perfectly phased! ;D

 

[Guy Mancuso]

Phase had a good year whIch I actually heard today and I am thrilled for them. It only means new and improved tech going forward. I hope Hassy , leica and others also had a good year. Just means our industry is still healthy and better things to come. The market dictates cost for end users. So that should take care of itself. Everyone wants to be competitive and still make a profit . So do I

Not sure why folks don't get that sometimes.

 

[mediumcool]

The whole discussion about what the cost of components is I find ridiculous. It seems it is always brought up by people that cannot afford something and feel they need a justification to claim price reductions are in order. Or believe they are being ripped off in some way or think there is a conspirancy to keep prices above justifiable levels.

I have never asked a chef in a good restaurant about the costs of his ingredients? Or asked a bookstore about the cost of paper and ink,etc.. have any of you?

The notion a lot of people are involved and putting their time and brainwork in and not for philantropic purposes but to be able to make a living seems to be something many forget. Next time I speak to any Hasselblad employee I will also ask what they are making and if they might be willing to cut down so I can get my equipment a bit cheaper. Maybe we could propose to lay off some personnel and see if that makes any difference? I have heard that the building in Denmark is quite nice, I bet they could move to some shed too.

Maybe this is why so many photographers get it served right back. The cost of photography is no more than a decent DSLR isn't it? This world is more and more becoming a place where you are expected to work for free and if you are lucky you might be allowed to charge the costs of your raw materials. Everybody expects the lowest prices and everybody expects to make a decent living. Something has got to give in this scenario. You cannot have it both ways.

Someone else said it before, if it would be that easy to make this kind of stuff there would have been others already offering for lower prices.

Maybe Hasselblad/P1/Leaf & Sinar should offer the ability to buy a sensor from them and let you try to built your own?...

Agreed. Everyone likes a bargain, but not when it’s at their own expense. Do unto others ...

 

[dick]

Phase had a good year whIch I actually heard today and I am thrilled for them. It only means new and improved tech going forward. I hope Hassy , leica and others also had a good year. Just means our industry is still healthy and better things to come. The market dictates cost for end users. So that should take care of itself. Everyone wants to be competitive and still make a profit . So do I

Not sure why folks don't get that sometimes.

What the MFD industry needs is cooperation and standardization, and, unfortunately, this is only likely to come from desperation.

DSLR users would be more likely to take the plunge into MFD if you could use any body with any lens and digiback... without paying £1,000 for each adapter.

¿You remember the Sinar 5 * 4 lensboard standard that let you use any lens on any 5 * 4 camera... why can we not have that with the 100mm MFDVCs?

 

[PeterA]

The best thing to hope for is that all back makers can get a good quality back to market at teh same price point as high end DSLR makers.

 

[David K]

I think the key to success for the MFDB makers is not so much saving money on the cost of components as growing the demand (and sales) for their product. With Leica and Pentax entering the MF marketplace a static demand will result in reduced market share for Hassy and Phase/Leaf. That's not the kind of scenario that lends itself to spending large sums on R&D to develop the latest and greatest technology.

 

[Mike M]

Culture is going to have a lot to do with what happens to medium format. The past 10 years were basically the decade of the 35mm DSLR and it was also a time of multi-tasking. Everybody wanted to be an expert at everything and they tended to want cameras that could do everything too. They wanted their stills with video etc....and they had a lot of unrealistic expectations for what could be done with a single camera system and it's software. The DMF world moves at a comparatively slower pace and takes a bit more care and thought to operate, so it was the odd man out during the decade.

But there is a good chance that the next decade will not be the same. Commercial photographers are going to struggle to differentiate themselves from all of the amateurs with 35mm DSLR kits and multi-taskers. One of the ways they will do it is to specialize in niche types of photography and purchase high quality gear that excels at specific tasks (rather than the do-it-all approach). This mentality should lead a lot of people to mediums like DMF and perhaps even a renewed interest in film.. OF course, pricing of DMF and the availability of film/processing/scanning are problems. But the point is that photographers are going to increasingly search for ways to differentiate themselves from the millions of 35mm DSLR amateurs and the companies they support will be the ones that help them achieve that goal.

The next decade might see a flight away from the 35mm DSLR. If these predictions about changes in culture are correct, then the companies that stand to gain the most will be the ones making finely tuned high quality products to match specific needs of niche photographers. The conquer all markets strategy of the recent past just isn't quite going to work the same in the future. Pricing is going to be a factor, but not as much as people might think. Photographers have a way of coming up with lots of money when they are really serious.

 

[PeterA]

I would like a camera in a studio that gives me all the benefits of traditional LF (movements) along with all the ease of use of MFD - but I would like to see an intergrated workflow solution which gives me control over lighting as well as camera and live view on one piece of software.

I am fascinated by the tech that Briese and Broncolor are bringing to the market in terms of automation and physical management of lighting.

 

[mediumcool]

What the MFD industry needs is cooperation and standardization, and, unfortunately, this is only likely to come from desperation.

Sort of agree, but this is anti-competitive behaviour, and would be subject to government oversight and regulation, particularly in Europe, where much of the industry is based.

And if they should get past anti-trust concerns and agree to standardise, what formats do the companies agree to share? H-Backs with Phase/AFD lens mount?

How do they then differentiate their offerings? Do the losers get compensated somehow for having to retool, and for leaving behind their past and present customers? A problem with capitalism is that duplication is commonplace, which is wasteful, but no other economic system has been been shown to operate as efficiently.

DSLR users would be more likely to take the plunge into MFD if you could use any body with any lens and digiback... without paying £1,000 for each adapter.

Can’t put a Canon lens on a Nikon for any practical use (macro?); do the reverse and you can focus to infinity, and still lose all automation. How many people would want to do that? I am using older lenses on my AFD so no autofocus (not a problem) and no auto stop-down (problem).

You remember the Sinar 5 * 4 lensboard standard that let you use any lens on any 5 * 4 camera... why can we not have that with the 100mm MFDVCs?

Not much point I believe in comparing primitive lens mounts (only distinguishable from one another by their dimensions) with lens mounts that offer rapid lens changing and providing full automation such as AF and AE. BTW, I have no idea what MFDVC means.

What does happen naturally in a capitalist system (if governments permit it) is industry consolidation by merger or takeover—the absorption of Leaf by Phase One is the best example I know; Leaf has its own legacy customers, and Phase One can try to achieve economies of scale by combining such activities as R & D and manufacturing.

I hope the Pentax will shake things up, but it’s not a camera for everyone.

 

[dick]

And if they should get past anti-trust concerns and agree to standardise, what formats do the companies agree to share?

The Sinar P3 100mm lensboard is an open system - so any manufacturer can use it - but Sinar themselves do not use it for their ArTec.

Can’t put a Canon lens on a Nikon for any practical use

There were only a few SLR lens mounts, Leica, Nikon, Pentax...

Not much point I believe in comparing primitive lens mounts (only distinguishable from one another by their dimensions) with lens mounts that offer rapid lens changing and providing full automation such as AF and AE. BTW, .

The audio (Hi-Fi) industry managed to standardize their plugs and signal voltages - it would not be complicated

I have no idea what MFDVC means

Medium Format Digital View Camera

What does happen naturally in a capitalist system (if governments permit it) is industry consolidation by merger or takeover—the absorption of Leaf by Phase One is the best example I know;

It would be nice if they co-operated before they killed the industry and were forced to merge.

 

[dick]

I would like a camera in a studio that gives me all the benefits of traditional LF (movements) along with all the ease of use of MFD - but I would like to see an intergrated workflow solution which gives me control over lighting as well as camera and live view on one piece of software.

Hasselblad and Sinar are beginning to get their act together... I am looking for to getting Sinar eShutters so that I can remotely fire the view camera from an iTouch or iPad while positioning remote flashes for "Painting with Flash Light". The lights could be hand-held for single-shot, but on stands for multi-shot.

I may initially have to run more than one program on the iPad for shutter control, camera control and/or preview, tripod head...

A fully powered Sinar like the ¿CapCom? would be nice.

 

[fotografz]

I think the key to success for the MFDB makers is not so much saving money on the cost of components as growing the demand (and sales) for their product. With Leica and Pentax entering the MF marketplace a static demand will result in reduced market share for Hassy and Phase/Leaf. That's not the kind of scenario that lends itself to spending large sums on R&D to develop the latest and greatest technology.

Setting aside talent segregation, I think this is it in a nutshell ... this, and Mike's notion of specialization.

There is obviously a growing proliferation of highly capable 35mm DSLRs and even P&Ss, and a fascination with more and more automated do-dads.

No where is that more apparent than with portrait and wedding photography. Fundamentally, what was once relatively specialized, and dominated by the ubiquitous Hassey and Bronica, first went 35mm, then became over-run by almost anyone with a Canon Rebel and zoom. The "rich" slice of the pie has shrunk, so that experienced shooters fleeing upscale from the "house-wife and unemployed pool with a camera", now are slugging it out for the crumbs.

Reportage has been incredibly impacted by this proliferation ... citizen reporting with digi-cams, cell phones, etc. That, and the demise of the printed form.

Commercial work has not been immune to this ... not necessarily the higher-end, but more the traditional "Bread & Butter" work that helped support a mid-range studio infrastructure. Even the "In-House Photographer" is no longer a dedicated pro, but rather an employee enthusiasts with a decent 35mm DSLR and "Strobists" knowledge.

The common element to all this is a wide-spread believe that these easily acquired technical solutions are just as good as more specialized solutions. Even hordes of experienced photographers believe this.

This factor is heavily promoted by the great equalizers ... consumer computer screens and the internet itself. A 60 meg, big sensor, 16 bit file processed in specialized software using data rich colorspace reduced to a sub one meg 8-bit file in a heavily truncated color space. :wtf:

Landscape and art photographers have a clearer path than most. Generally, the final expression is in printed form ... usually larger where all the fussy stuff becomes apparent to even an inexperienced eye.

I found this to be true even in my business where acquiring new clients has become difficult at best. Swim upstream by dramatically demonstrating better prints. I swapped out services with my local consumer lab and now half of their album displays are my work (mostly high-end MFD or rangefinder work) ... 12X18 and 20X20 albums have garnered a huge amount of feed-back from clients of the lab and has resulted in higher end inquires.

IMO, the point is that the public or client base has to be educated, and has to see the difference in the flesh.

Of related interest, at my urging, a friend investigated MFD to move upward from his Canon gear ... he ultimately rejected the notion because he couldn't see enough difference for the money spent ... I know for a fact that he never made a print.

-Marc

 

[mediumcool]

The Sinar P3 100mm lensboard is an open system - so any manufacturer can use it - but Sinar themselves do not use it for their ArTec.

Gee, that’s non-standardisation within one company!

There were only a few SLR lens mounts, Leica, Nikon, Pentax...

Not so.

The audio (Hi-Fi) industry managed to standardize their plugs and signal voltages - it would not be complicated

Uh huh.

Medium Format Digital View Camera

Thanks for the decoding, but I thought the debate was about the general medium format digital market. Talking about a view camera lensmount being a potential standard applies to an even smaller segment of the already tiny (by comparison with the consumer market) medium format digital sector under general discussion, and would be third in line after SLRs and then the oft-called technical cameras.

It would be nice if they co-operated before they killed the industry and were forced to merge.

Merging has been happening for some time, and *killing the industry* is an emotive statement which doesn’t supply any new data in this debate.

There will be changes and shake-outs, as there are in any industry. For me, I’m happy about Phase One. Long may you run ...