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The colors of Flagstaff
- Thread starter Guy Mancuso
- Start date
woodyspedden
New member
Probably so Charles. I was just curious as it was very pronounced. But it is what it is as they say these days. Blue light is blue light and in these conditions, i.e. little diffusion due to no clouds or haze, the blue is very likely to go absolutely everywhere.
Woody
Woody
Guy Mancuso
Administrator, Instructor
Exactly Woody with low sun like it was than if something is not hit by it directly it will just reflect the sky. I did these on my laptop also , so I will check these on the big screen and do a double take. I did leave it on flash for the C1 profile for some reason that is the default. Which I need to change to daylight or outdoor
Guy Mancuso
Administrator, Instructor
Okay on the desktop it seems i am running about 300 kelvin or 4400 kelvin to the cool side using the Daylight on camera . The correct temp should be about 4700 kelvin on everything. Now this was shot extremely early in the morning so to be more accurate maybe when the sun is up a little more which normally is about 5300 kelvin plus i am at altitude which may account for more blue. 7000 ft is pretty high
Anyway corrected to 4700 for the first one than 4300. Now still a touch blue in the shadow side which to be expected since it is the shade
Anyway corrected to 4700 for the first one than 4300. Now still a touch blue in the shadow side which to be expected since it is the shade
Guy Mancuso
Administrator, Instructor
BTW looking at the Exif this is the 55mm wide open at 2.8 and the Pizza is pretty good. LOL
Guy Mancuso
Administrator, Instructor
As you can see 4700 kelvin looks correct for this time of the morning. 4700 than 4400 as it came in
Guy Mancuso
Administrator, Instructor
Interesting about a half hour later than these two shots it jumps to 5100 kelvin as the WB. Obviously the low light is skipping the surface of the sky which keeps it low than as it gets higher it starts to get higher in color temp as it should to eventually get to about 5400 to 5800 kelvin. Bottom line it's ALL about the light folks , like it should be. Pretty damn cool if you ask me
Guy Mancuso
Administrator, Instructor
I will Kurt we can call Doug at CI which he is a genius at C1 to give us some answer on this. Actually i will send him a e-mail to post here on this thread . Doug is a really great guy with a lot of knowledge on C1.
S
Samuel Axelsson
Guest
If you're using 3.x : Preferences > Color Managment > Camera > Use Profile by default.
I don't think the default can be changed in C1 4.
Guy Mancuso
Administrator, Instructor
Yes working in C1 4.1
Dale Allyn
New member
I haven't installed 4.1.1 yet, but had already located the pref. in 3.7.8 and changed it. It's odd that it didn't make it to 4.1.1 since that's a very simple feature to include – much simpler than most of the changes that were part of the upgrade. Let's hope that they put it back soon.
Guy Mancuso
Administrator, Instructor
Well you can simple make the change select all than copy ad to the whole folder of images too. Simple way around it but i agree it needs to make it over to 4.1 . Maybe when the Pro version comes out it will be adjustable and able to make default , but we have a work around for now.
dougpeterson
Workshop Member
*sigh, I so rarely post on forums because I can never restrain myself and end up with dense, impossible-to-read posts... O well.
Mammy645, I would love to hear more about your experiences with calibrating ACR. Could you post some before/after examples? How does the calibration hold up under strongly tinted light such as tungsten or sunset light?
Couple of thoughts:
1) The medium format back with 16bit processing and higher dynamic range will pick up on subtle variation in color that a dSLR, or high-saturation slide film (i.e. velvia) would not. This will be especially true when comparing dark-and-saturated tones and pastel colors in highlights. Therefore you'll expect to see a blue-tint in shadows when balanced for warmer daylight. On a dSLR this blue-tint would be less obvious. If you want to emulate an existing camera, for instance to add to a continuing body of work, my suggestion would be a slight toe in the curve to reduce apparent dynamic range. Also you can experiment with easy-black, or easy-gray input ICC profiles in Capture One. These profiles push lightly saturated colors back towards neutral. This can be useful in a variety of instances. Easy-gray is more aggressive than easy-black.
2) The non plus and plus versions of the back have different IR-cut filters in front of the sensor. The result is that sometimes a P25 might
3) While ACR, especially when tweaked and calibrated, can do a fine job of processing the P1 files, any serious experimentation should include Capture One, especially 4.1. If you're looking for something to do on a rainy day Irrident Raw Developer can process phase one files as well. We have a comparison of various developers here: http://www.captureintegration.com/tests/software/
4) The ability to control default settings is being included in 4.2 Pro due shortly after Photokina. It's not of much of a substitute, but there are some really slick ways to copy settings between images in Capture One 4.1. My favorite for this situation would be
copy adjustments [Shift-Apple-C]
select all [Apple-A]
paste adjustments [Shift-Apple-V]
If the first two things you do are set an input profile and a white balance then this combination of shortcuts will copy the profile and WB to all images in that folder very quickly. However, the ability to set a default would be better, and is slated for 4.2 Pro.
5) Often a dSLR will clip one channel but not the others, which will produce incorrect color in the highlights or shadows. The most common instance would be tungsten light or early daylight where the content of the light is biased towards red. In this case the red channel is over exposed and the blue channel is under exposed. When the white balance is applied there is an effective pull given to the red and a push to the blue. Without good dynamic range this means the red channel will be clipped and loose highlight-accuracy. This comes up all the time with skin tones under strongly warm light; the average exposure will be spot on, but the red channel is being pulled a stop or more and highlights on the face will become blotchy and produce unnatural red fringing.
By the way, what is an input profile you ask?
Different light sources have holes (or peaks) in parts of the visible spectrum. White Balance shifts the white point within the visible spectrum but does not take into account the variances specific parts of specific colors. By selecting the proper profile your colors should match even when changing between light sources. For instance, imagine you're shooting a model with a rainbow dress inside in industrial and incandescent lighting as well as outside. White balancing these shots would match neutral grays, but a specific color like red might be under-saturated or appear off in hue. By also using the proper input profile those reds would match as well. There are limits of course, because no two lights are the same, but it does a pretty snazzy job.
Dale, if you're having problems producing consistent accurate color then you should speak with your dealer. They should be able to help you; there is very little chance your back is defective, so more likely there are elements of your workflow that need tweaked to produce best quality. With a proper workflow these backs produce the most accurate and consistent color of any system I've ever used. It's also possible that you're accustomed to a certain look from another camera system which was not as technically-precise in color. If this is the case your dealer should be able to help you to create a profile using Color Editor that matches the color reproduction of whatever your used to. At Capture Integration we often produce a profile for a legacy digital back when a customer upgrades. For instance, a month ago we produced a P45+ profile to match the color reproduction of the P25 for a customer who had become used to the P25 and had to match upcoming P45+ shots with archived P25 shots. After all, "accuracy" (as measured in a lab scientifically against known consortium-established targets) is the least important part of a color-workflow unless the goal is matching specific colors (e.g. "Coke Red"). Otherwise the important part is that you find the colors pleasing, which is purely subjective.
Happy experimenting,
Doug
Mammy645, I would love to hear more about your experiences with calibrating ACR. Could you post some before/after examples? How does the calibration hold up under strongly tinted light such as tungsten or sunset light?
Couple of thoughts:
1) The medium format back with 16bit processing and higher dynamic range will pick up on subtle variation in color that a dSLR, or high-saturation slide film (i.e. velvia) would not. This will be especially true when comparing dark-and-saturated tones and pastel colors in highlights. Therefore you'll expect to see a blue-tint in shadows when balanced for warmer daylight. On a dSLR this blue-tint would be less obvious. If you want to emulate an existing camera, for instance to add to a continuing body of work, my suggestion would be a slight toe in the curve to reduce apparent dynamic range. Also you can experiment with easy-black, or easy-gray input ICC profiles in Capture One. These profiles push lightly saturated colors back towards neutral. This can be useful in a variety of instances. Easy-gray is more aggressive than easy-black.
2) The non plus and plus versions of the back have different IR-cut filters in front of the sensor. The result is that sometimes a P25 might
3) While ACR, especially when tweaked and calibrated, can do a fine job of processing the P1 files, any serious experimentation should include Capture One, especially 4.1. If you're looking for something to do on a rainy day Irrident Raw Developer can process phase one files as well. We have a comparison of various developers here: http://www.captureintegration.com/tests/software/
4) The ability to control default settings is being included in 4.2 Pro due shortly after Photokina. It's not of much of a substitute, but there are some really slick ways to copy settings between images in Capture One 4.1. My favorite for this situation would be
copy adjustments [Shift-Apple-C]
select all [Apple-A]
paste adjustments [Shift-Apple-V]
If the first two things you do are set an input profile and a white balance then this combination of shortcuts will copy the profile and WB to all images in that folder very quickly. However, the ability to set a default would be better, and is slated for 4.2 Pro.
5) Often a dSLR will clip one channel but not the others, which will produce incorrect color in the highlights or shadows. The most common instance would be tungsten light or early daylight where the content of the light is biased towards red. In this case the red channel is over exposed and the blue channel is under exposed. When the white balance is applied there is an effective pull given to the red and a push to the blue. Without good dynamic range this means the red channel will be clipped and loose highlight-accuracy. This comes up all the time with skin tones under strongly warm light; the average exposure will be spot on, but the red channel is being pulled a stop or more and highlights on the face will become blotchy and produce unnatural red fringing.
By the way, what is an input profile you ask?
Different light sources have holes (or peaks) in parts of the visible spectrum. White Balance shifts the white point within the visible spectrum but does not take into account the variances specific parts of specific colors. By selecting the proper profile your colors should match even when changing between light sources. For instance, imagine you're shooting a model with a rainbow dress inside in industrial and incandescent lighting as well as outside. White balancing these shots would match neutral grays, but a specific color like red might be under-saturated or appear off in hue. By also using the proper input profile those reds would match as well. There are limits of course, because no two lights are the same, but it does a pretty snazzy job.
Dale, if you're having problems producing consistent accurate color then you should speak with your dealer. They should be able to help you; there is very little chance your back is defective, so more likely there are elements of your workflow that need tweaked to produce best quality. With a proper workflow these backs produce the most accurate and consistent color of any system I've ever used. It's also possible that you're accustomed to a certain look from another camera system which was not as technically-precise in color. If this is the case your dealer should be able to help you to create a profile using Color Editor that matches the color reproduction of whatever your used to. At Capture Integration we often produce a profile for a legacy digital back when a customer upgrades. For instance, a month ago we produced a P45+ profile to match the color reproduction of the P25 for a customer who had become used to the P25 and had to match upcoming P45+ shots with archived P25 shots. After all, "accuracy" (as measured in a lab scientifically against known consortium-established targets) is the least important part of a color-workflow unless the goal is matching specific colors (e.g. "Coke Red"). Otherwise the important part is that you find the colors pleasing, which is purely subjective.
Happy experimenting,
Doug
Guy Mancuso
Administrator, Instructor
Thanks Doug . Number 4 on your list is what i normally would do. But did not on the laptop when I was in Flagstaff. Number 1 on your list is very interesting and something I will try also with easy grey and easy black
Dale Allyn
New member
Doug,
Great post, thank you.
Let me clarify that I, in no way, feel my back is defective. The oddities which I am experiences are most likely workflow/user error/familiarization, etc. The back produces fine colors in the kind of light that I would normally shoot. It was just rather shocking to open a folder of images and find that every frame needed significant white balance adjustment, and some in very odd ways (odd to me, based on experience with other systems, perhaps not odd to others).
Your post points out another important point which is consistent with my observations with these sets of files: while I'm used to exposing images to the right of the histogram with DSLRs, the brightest files from these sets were the most inaccurately white balanced. I have since adjusted my interpretation of the histogram on this back and things are mellowing. The histogram on the P25+ back is not as easy for me to see in daylight as other cameras, so I've missed right-side clipping.
As for dealer: Lance and I spoke and I look forward to working with you folks. My back purchase was a "rescue purchase" from someone who felt they made a mistake by going to MFDB, though the back was brand new with VA package. I attempted to contact the seller to introduce myself, etc., but he opted not to respond.
Lance was very pleasant to speak with and suggested that he would pass my name, etc. on to you.
Again, Doug, great post. Thank you.
Best,
Dale
dougpeterson
Workshop Member
Dale,
Lance did pass your name onto me but I have trouble sometimes correlating names online with names I know from in-person conversations.
Look forward to working with you!
Doug Peterson
Capture Integration, Phase One Dealer
Personal Portfolio
Lance did pass your name onto me but I have trouble sometimes correlating names online with names I know from in-person conversations.
Look forward to working with you!
Doug Peterson
Capture Integration, Phase One Dealer
Personal Portfolio
Dale Allyn
New member
Doug, there are a lot of people who use the internet. I doubt anyone expects you to remember them all, or even correlate them with off-line acquaintances.
Looking forward to working with you folks too.
Cheers!
Looking forward to working with you folks too.
Cheers!