Special Announcement: Phase One new IQ backs

[Steve Hendrix]

Scary truth - I paid less than that for a new P40+ !! However, if you can get $15k, I'll offer up a second one at that price.

There's definitely margin there for lateral MP upgrades. The IQ digital backs are more expensive then their Pxx+ brethren after all.

There is margin, but apparently not much, because the discussions we've had so far, if this is offered, we the dealer are being asked to fork over a chunk of it if sidegrade orders are accepted. I am for giving up some margin for sidegrades because I feel if there is a new product that makes you want it, there should be a reasonable path to. But we're pushing for mercy.

Please do not use this post against me in future negotiations!

Sidegrades only!


Steve Hendrix

 

[Guy Mancuso]

I paid over that back when. I can't come up with the right answers yet but there has to be a way we can upgrade and not go into the jail house. The P40 folks are having a tough time here from what I see. We all want the tech but maybe not the mpx and happy with our 40 what is the best answer

 

[Guy Mancuso]

There is margin, but apparently not much, because the discussions we've had so far, if this is offered, we the dealer are being asked to fork over a chunk of it if sidegrade orders are accepted. I am for giving up some margin for sidegrades because I feel if there is a new product that makes you want it, there should be a reasonable path to. But we're pushing for mercy.

Please do not use this post against me in future negotiations!

Sidegrades only!


Steve Hendrix

Steve most of us know this comes from the OEM and not the dealers and they just need to understand there current users dilemma here. I want the new tech but from my seat today i am looking at 10k for the same sensor to upgrade or 22k for the IQ 160. This is without any lateral movement. This is sell my back at hopefully 13k and buy my sensor back at 23k. now that is 10 k for the same sensor. Ouch my friend . Let me put it out real simple I would be willing and most of us would give our dealers 6 K in cash and our backs for a IQ 140. Now watch the line going out the dealers door.

Folks please understand I am just rapping here and don't take what i say to the bank. We are all sitting here running numbers and scenarios through our heads and see what makes sense. Steve no need to reply I know this puts you in a bad spot if someone did not understand the whole situation and numbers being tossed around is not always good for people.

Lets put this another way. I am a P40 owner i want a IQ 160 I will pay 22k for that upgrade for a extra 20 mpx. Now wait

The P65+ owner here want the IQ 180 upgrade he will pay 15K for 20 MPX..

Okay there is a disconnect here the P40 guy is paying a extra 7k than the P65 and he is getting the new sensor.

Sorry something is out of whack here. LOL Its the percentage to the P40 guy is 40 percent and the P65 guy is 65 percent. Give us the 65 percent TOO

I need to know the real difference here it is the same sensor why different percentage. You give me the 65 percent and you will see my *** move to a bank

 

[kdphotography]

I paid over that back when. I can't come up with the right answers yet but there has to be a way we can upgrade and not go into the jail house. The P40 folks are having a tough time here from what I see. We all want the tech but maybe not the mpx and happy with our 40 what is the best answer

I think the same can be said with the P65 folks as well. And for me, it's not about the jailhouse as I don't have a mate to contend with---it's just that 60.5 MP fits me well, and I have my own personal theories about going up to 80MP that would not fit me well.

There's gotta be an attractive lateral upgrade offering----otherwise I might have to encourage/enable an angry italian to go over and beat some desks... :ROTFL:

 

[Guy Mancuso]

I think the same can be said with the P65 folks as well. And for me, it's not about the jailhouse as I don't have a mate to contend with---it's just that 60.5 MP fits me well, and I have my own personal theories about going up to 80MP that would not fit me well.

There's gotta be an attractive lateral upgrade offering----otherwise I might have to encourage/enable an angry italian to go over and beat some desks... :ROTFL:

already thinking about it. LOL

Maybe I need more sleep first.

 

[Jan Brittenson]

Jan - no you are not correct. The ZD back will indeed generate a 22% discount from either an IQ140, IQ160, or IQ180.

I have never been so happy to be wrong before!

 

[Mark_Tuttle]

Hmm ... I'm about as frugal as they come (No, seriously!), but the possibility of having a passable "Live View" feature available to compose and focus could very well tempt me to switch gears and pop the bucks to move from my Contax 645 to a tech camera outfit. Alas, most of my photography these days is done at night and a 60-second exposure limit just won't cut it for me regardless of how well these backs perform otherwise... <sniff, sniff>

Agreed. In my eyes the capacity for an exposure longer than 1 minute outweighs any urge to sell my P45.

But please do send me a PM to explain how you are using the Contax 645 body for exposures longer than 32 seconds. I ended up buying a Cambo WDS since I couldn't find a solution with the electronics in the Contax 645 body.

 

[SergeiR]

Dammit.. i really really must stop reading this thread. I feel slipping..

 

[mvirtue]

Dammit.. i really really must stop reading this thread. I feel slipping..

I know! I took my Aptus out for a spin untethered and I sure wish I had focus mask...Slippery! Must.Not.Give.In!

 

[Paul Spinnler]

I don't have any confirmation yet on the status of sideways upgrades. For my part, I am for it. I hope to know with more certainty later today or tomorrow.

Paul - that's an interesting take on the Aptus-II 12 to IQ180 upgrade. Well...it's a grey liner. 80% off, that follows the formula. It's not exactly a sideways, because it is not a Phase One product....

Hmmm....will be asking about this also. I'll get back to you.


Steve Hendrix

Hi Steve, thanks for replying.

I don't understand the difference between sideways and lateral everybody's talking about.

Isn't it all already clearly laid out?

Phase One back = percentage according to name

Other brand back = percentage of megapixels.

It is stated that way on the page.

Ergo a Leaf Aptus 12 should entitle its owner to 80% off the list price?

And a p45+ should entitle to 45% off of any Phase One IQ back? Event the IQ140?

In that case I'm very tempted to get the IQ 180 since I really like the speedy preview, new screen and weather sealing features. I especially can now leave my laptop at home which is huge.

In my opinion phase one should be lenient on a case by case basis (for example with "grace grants" for people who just bought a p65+ before the value guarantee to be able to profit from it too) and very generous in letting people upgrade their systems to fair prices. This creates brand loyalty and trust. This is especially important for a camera that's worth as much as a luxury car and with a majority of users that aren't millionaires. Phase One prides itself in providing exceptional value protection for its users, but for example lowering all pXX+ backs by 10k in one sweep is not exactly that.

Thanks

Paul

 

[jotloob]

Dammit.. i really really must stop reading this thread. I feel slipping..

I know! I took my Aptus out for a spin untethered and I sure wish I had focus mask...Slippery! Must.Not.Give.In!

True enough .
The path between temptation and the risk of addiction is very , very small .
At least , thats how I feel it . It all depends on , if you have to rectify your desire or not .

Currently , I am on the safe side due to the high cost for the IQ160 + IQ180 . But I do like to go for the best .

 

[Porpoise]

Hi Steve, thanks for replying.

In my opinion phase one should be lenient on a case by case basis (for example with "grace grants" for people who just bought a p65+ before the value guarantee to be able to profit from it too) and very generous in letting people upgrade their systems to fair prices. This creates brand loyalty and trust. This is especially important for a camera that's worth as much as a luxury car and with a majority of users that aren't millionaires. Phase One prides itself in providing exceptional value protection for its users, but for example lowering all pXX+ backs by 10k in one sweep is not exactly that.

Thanks

Paul

My first posting on this excellent forum. Thanks for all the help in the past.

In January I bought the P65+ instead of the Leaf 12 because of the 90% upgrade guarantee. They were the same price. Now 65% of the price of the IQ180 is more than 100% of my purchase price for the P65+. So don't feel to bad if you missed out on that upgrade guarantee. But I should have bought the Leaf 12 which would have given me 80% discount.
What will the prices for the IQ1x0 do when all upgrade deals have been fulfilled?

Does anybody know whether the focus mask is available during live view? That would really be great on an Alpa.

 

[goesbang]

awesome! now to wait for Hasselblad to bring something similar out

Hope you aren't holding your breath........

 

[goesbang]

that is exactly what I did last 2 years.. used my Canons and basically rent Phase/Hassy when I needed it... now it's a different story altogether since the actress from our latest movie was nominated for Golden Globes we didn't win.. but at this point nomination for our movie is good enough excuse for me to finally go and get one of these Phase IQ backs

With sensor plus yielding big, beautiful 20MP files, you might seriously consider ditching the DSLR completely.

 

[Guy Mancuso]

Do NOT underestimate Sensor Plus even at 10 mpx on my P40+ i get outstanding image quality and honestly it looks more like 15 mpx cams. Noise is extremely well tamed as well. I do have a thread on this actually here

http://forum.getdpi.com/forum/showthread.php?t=13379

 

[dougpeterson]

Hi Steve, thanks for replying.

I don't understand the difference between sideways and lateral everybody's talking about.

Isn't it all already clearly laid out?

Phase One back = percentage according to name

Other brand back = percentage of megapixels.

It is stated that way on the page.

Ergo a Leaf Aptus 12 should entitle its owner to 80% off the list price?

Paul

Upgrades are defined as going up in resolution or sensor size. Cross grades are, for instance, going from a P40+ or P45+ to an IQ140 where your resolution and sensor size remain the same.

Upgrade pricing is shown at the link.

So no, an Aptus II 12 does not yield 80% off list price of any IQ product as it would be a crossgrade.

Cross grade pricing has not been established yet. I realize that's frustrating, but it's only been two days since the announcement, and besides the IQ140 and IQ160 won't be shipping until after the IQ180 anyway.

It's kind of an arbitrary/semantics sort of thing, so I have added a clarification/note to the Upgrade Pricing link to avoid any further confusion.

Doug Peterson (e-mail Me)
__________________

Head of Technical Services, Capture Integration
Phase One Partner of the Year
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[Quentin_Bargate]

I think a good game plan is to work in three year cycles. I purchased a H4D-50 with 3 year lease finance in spring 2010 and I won't consider any change or "upgrade" for three years, that is until Spring 2013. I'm not sure what purpose would be served by even larger files: I like the new high rez screens on the new Phase backs, but as I usually shoot tethered, I'm not sure that is such a big deal either.

 

[dougpeterson]

In January I bought the P65+ instead of the Leaf 12 because of the 90% upgrade guarantee. They were the same price. Now 65% of the price of the IQ180 is more than 100% of my purchase price for the P65+. So don't feel to bad if you missed out on that upgrade guarantee. But I should have bought the Leaf 12 which would have given me 80% discount.
What will the prices for the IQ1x0 do when all upgrade deals have been fulfilled?

If you strait-up bought a P65+ (not upgrade/used/etc) after the 90% upgrade guarantee was in place than you are covered by that guarantee. This is different than someone who bought a P65+ for instance two years ago and has had two good years of use out of that gear (20 months of which it was the highest resolution back in the world). Your 90% guarantee means 90% of whatever you actually paid for your 65+ will be counted towards an upgrade to an IQ180.

The "65+ = 65%" technically also covers you, but it's like you have a 90% off coupon and a 65% coupon and you can only use one of them - you'll of course use your 90% off coupon.

The Aptus II 12 is 80mp and so would be a cross-grade to an IQ180. Cross grades are not covered by the "mp = %"

No one can tell you with certainty about pricing in the future (not even Phase One). But based on pre-orders from just the last two days it seems it will sell very well at current prices and as it seems unlikely that any serious competition will arrive for this series of backs anytime soon downward pressure on pricing doesn't seem likely.

These upgrades are not magical or giveaways. The final product, the IQ series, is an expensive and very valuable piece of gear which is best in class. Phase is offering phase owners who want to upgrade significantly more for their gear than they could receive on the open market for their backs and offering competitive owners (e.g. Hassy) an easy (or at least easier) way to switch over. In addition people who bought new in the last four months get 90% of their value towards an upgrade. That's about as good as it gets in the camera/back world.

Here's the bottom line: can anyone show me an upgrade policy from any camera company which is more generous to existing owners?

Does anybody know whether the focus mask is available during live view? That would really be great on an Alpa.

Unknown at this time as that feature is still being finalized.

Doug Peterson (e-mail Me)
__________________

Head of Technical Services, Capture Integration
Phase One Partner of the Year
Leaf, Leica, Cambo, Arca Swiss, Canon, Apple, Profoto, Broncolor, Eizo & More

National: 877.217.9870 *| *Cell: 740.707.2183
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[dougpeterson]

I think a good game plan is to work in three year cycles. I purchased a H4D-50 with 3 year lease finance in spring 2010 and I won't consider any change or "upgrade" for three years, that is until Spring 2013. I'm not sure what purpose would be served by even larger files: I like the new high rez screens on the new Phase backs, but as I usually shoot tethered, I'm not sure that is such a big deal either.

USB3/USB2 tethering would mean you could carry a smaller/lighter laptop such as a MacBookAir when traveling (e.g. your "Old Architecture" gallery)

And the Retina LCD and In-Camera Live Preview should be enough to forgo the laptop altogether in situations where you're moving too fast or are in too tight/busy of a space to use a laptop to tether. (e.g. your Red Square Gallery)

The built in IQLevel system would ensure that all your images are perfectly level - a good tripod/bubble-level gets you almost-perfect, the built in digital level and Capture One coordinate to take care of the rest and (optionally) auto-rotate your images that last fraction of a degree. (e.g. your "local countryside" gallery)

The built in battery would allow much easier field use on a tech camera for significantly increased optical quality and movements for all of your landscape/interiors.

The 1/1600th of a sec wireless flash sync without loss of light might be useful for your pouring liquids shots, allowing you to open the aperture for DOF effects and not have to worry about your working/focusing/room lights. (e.g. your food and drink shots)

The Focus Mask would make it very easy for you to verify that you placed focus and have DOF where you wanted/expected even in really bright light and are keeping to a more casual style of shooting (e.g. XKEC event gallery)

When hand holding in available light the sensor+ mode of the IQ180 would give you 20mp at up to ISO3200 (e.g. your "Rochester Dickens Festival") quite possibly removing the need for you to have a dSLR kit as I don't see see any fast moving sports/action shots in your galleries.

Anyway, the point is there are a lot reasons why any particular photographer might consider an upgrade other than resolution. Especially this generational upgrade which is largely focused on usability/features rather than resolution (hence the 40/60 megapixel chips were also included in the new lineup).

There is also sound logic to your statement about skipping a generation (or two) between upgrades. As with anything that costs money you need to step back and ask yourself "what am I getting for what I am paying" - NEVER upgrade just because there is something newer.



Doug Peterson (e-mail Me)
__________________

Head of Technical Services, Capture Integration
Phase One Partner of the Year
Leaf, Leica, Cambo, Arca Swiss, Canon, Apple, Profoto, Broncolor, Eizo & More

National: 877.217.9870 *| *Cell: 740.707.2183
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[Hauxon]

Looks like Phase One finally did give their backs the overhaul needed. The backs looks modern, nice LCD screen and "live-view" and some other minor changes.

It seems however that Phase One are not aware of the Pentax 645D at all or do not consider it a competition. Maybe Pentax hurts Canon 1DsIII/Nikon D3x sales more than Phase One sales. Maybe Phase One clients are mostly wealthy amateurs who don't give a f**k about another $10.000 or few hundred fashion photographers who don't care if their camera bag costs 100.000 USD!

Sigh!