Some discussion at Lulas, was not?
Some discussion at Lulas, was not?
In all seriousness, I don't expect to always see eye to eye with Michael Reichmann, but I also expect some degree of professional courtesy, hoping that I hold up my end of the bargain in that respect.
Its must friendlier here and I have Guy and Jack to thank for that.
On the subject of Phase One...
I am glad that the MF industry is evolving and that companies like us and Phase have the will and cash to invest in the industry which so many like to think is dying.
We had growth in the USA in 2010, as I am sure Phase did as well.
Competition is good and makes all parties strive to be better. None of us want to be the only player - that is a very bad situation in any kind of business!
Good for you guys, David. Everything I know backs up that this segment of the market did well in 2010 and 2011 bodes very well. It's nice when all players in a market are succeeding.
In addition to GetDPI, I participate in (at least) 2 other primary forums that have strong medium format interest, including LL. All three are very different environments. I always have to try and bear in mind where I am at when I post as a result. I don't think I'm ever disrespectful, but I will say there is definitely a more confrontational environment at LL, which is ok with me. I love debate.
But I also love the GetDPI vibe, it's a totally different feel and you get the idea that in a way, we're all in this together, sharing the same objective. Did that sound too kumbaya? Ooooh....not good.
I appreciate the less confrontational tone that is generally shown here at GetDPI. It's nice to think that if I met many of you in person some day, we wouldn't be at each other's throats over this stuff.
Well...Michael, for whatever reason, seems to have personalized the decision to "close" the 'blad system and he continues to throw petrol on the fire in his latest video. LL is not the place to ask this question, so I will ask here: What exactly was the bottom line in the "lawsuit"'?
i hate LL now...it is more mellow here.
photography isn't bloodsport
MR consistently and repeatedly pressed the two reps about making the new backs for use on H3/H4 cameras ... which they diplomatically deflected every time. He also gave a lot of credit to the H camera which I'm sure they didn't appreciate all that much. It was a little mental if you ask me.
I'm sure Phase One is far more interested in spending their resources on developing their rumored new cameras than cracking the firmware codes and doing the necessary development to make H3Ds and H4s able to take their backs. It'd be a matter of priorities ... no matter how much Phase says they are supportive of the photographic community at large (which I think they are), they are still a business.
No, forget the blood.
Each business does what they do for the purpose of advancing the business. Sometimes the decision is right sometimes wrong, and sometimes it does not matter. Sometimes a business is faced with a series of individual practical decisions that slowly drag it in a direction that nobody would have anticipated at the beginning.
Standard photographic interfaces seem to be particularly hard to come by.
Just look at the number of different styles of cable releases out there.
Hassy is just as open a system as a new car. Sure you can change out your engine for another, but there is a lot of custom interfacing involved and you also void the warranty.
I suspect that if Phase One had evolved from a film camera manufacturer first it might have chosen a different path, but it did not.
All of this openness thing is a bit lost on me although I am a big fan of Open Systems. Notwithstanding the tech cameras, how many sources are there for Mamiya digital back mount camera bodies anyway?
First thanks for the nice comments about GetDPI and obviously we don't need to rehash that discussion in part over here and cause another scene but it is interesting on which each company does in there marketing and company policy on what they do with there system with being considered open and closed. Not so sure ancient past is worth the effort of talking about at least to me it's water under the bridge. But i do agree with Bob's comments sometime those decisions could be considered wrong or right. We as users need to decide what makes the most sense if we are buying into Hassy what do we get and what limitations come with it. Obviously some parts are good or they would have never gone down that path to start with. But it does leave some interchangeability out as well with other products interfacing with it. Let's face it the Leica S2 is about as closed as a system you may find right now. Nothing is interchangeable with it at least for now or since it's introduction. Yes we hear of lens adapters but it has been on the streets quite sometime. But folks are buying it and seem happy just as in Hassy's case and on the same token in Hassy's case there are positives as well to that decision. People buy for many reasons and actually I bought into Phase more for the use of C1 than anything else or it was a major factor in my decision being considered a open system did not play much of a role at the time for me. I liked it and liked the files i got from a demo in C1, I was toast. LOL
On another note David and Steve you know Jack and I always welcome our dealers, manufacturing reps and so on with open arms. We feel your presence brings great value to our members in helping them with decisions, product awareness and technical issues and such. The door is always open and I know for a fact our members appreciate your presence. Thanks for the support. But I am not going to give you guys a big hug so you can forget that. LOL
This site as well as Lula wouldn't be as fine without the intervention of dealers and reps. That's what makes these two sites so interesting, helpful, ilustrative and entertaining.
I hope yesterday's "event" was the last one of its kind. It makes no good to anyone and certainly not to the "contenders". No lols this time
LL is a great example of an entity which developed prime mover advantages in terms of eyeball time - by being early.
MR has also hit the nail on the head regarding target audiences - the enthusiast. He understands his market very well and in collecting a lot of enthusiast eye ball time - has developed a critical mass of influence with the suppliers.
The MF forum over there is varied in its usefulness - sometimes great threads on interesting photographic technical issues from practitioners - but mostly photographer views on how the world should work accroding to themselves.
A lot of aggravation from professional shooters displaying ( in the main) their tired and hackneyed cheapo deluxo versions of the local town magazine fashion shot - :sleep006::sleep006: or the occassional overworked photoshop plastic fantastic something or other.
This forum is far more interesting as a place for the enthusiast to swap notes and learn from like minded community.
Regarding reverse engineering - Phase One /Mamiya is probably better off designing a new body that ups the anti on Hasselbald H series. Mamiya has a lot of stuff to look at from H and Leica now - in order to gather the best ergonomics and features.
Regarding open / closed platforms - I think they are all closed and it gets a bit tiring listening to the Phase dude say that Phase is always committed to 'open' systems. Once you choose your mount - it stops being open a pity neither Phase One or Leaf offer adaptor system for users who have multiple camera platforms.
Also I note that Phase doesnt supply an Hy6 mount - although Leaf does. A pity ( from my perspective) - as good as Leaf is - the new features of IQ Phase backs is a compelling switch proposition.
It's not terribly clear Peter, but think that by "open" they mean you can choose your back, and choose your camera mount, and it will work. You can't "choose" to put a H4D/40 back on a Contax or Mamiya camera.
Where I think Hasselblad has missed a beat is not continuing to evolve their CF line of digital backs which can be used on any camera by just changing the iAdapter. I can use my CF39/MS on my H2F with full integration, and my RZ Pro, and Rollie Xact-II or any Tech camera without power issues or wake-up needs ... If they made a CF-II/50MS I'd be there in a NY heart beat.
Frankly, most all of my needs outside the studio are met by the Leica S2 ... If I go anywhere now, it'll be to a 50 Multi-Shot which can bark with any big-dog out there for what I do, and won't break the bank in the process. Then again, doing nothing with my Hassey system is even cheaper
Question is if open is really needed. I am not against this idea and 2 years back while choosing my MF system I was also very much blinded by that "open" idea.
Open has lot of advantages in many areas - and in many technologies, also the Internet of course, where I come from. But I can tell you that open is not always better. Open very often gives users the impression that everything should seamlessly work together, because it is open, but finally this is many times not the case because things were not designed for seamless operation all together, instead just for being "open".
Thus I care today much less about open. If I would need a 80MP back, I would not hesitate to by the Phase system with it. And add a tech camera if needed. Well then I would be open in the minds of Phase.
If I would want (which I do indeed) or even need a S sytem, I would buy into this (well price is a certain barrier here ) and not care if it is open.
Same for Hasselblad - which is somehow more open than the S system but not as open as Phase ... useless debate.
Openness should not be overestimated in my view.
Even though I will soon be shooting an "open" system, hasselblad has done some amazing things with the H system... (IMO) afforded often by the integration offered by a "closed" camera system. In manufacturing, time/capital spent designing/fabricating all of the "extras" of a system that is compatible with non-oem-manufacturer's gear is possibly time/capital NOT spent creating/honing truly groundbreaking features (true-focus for one?).
One might be led to think that if people are gonna bag on Hasselblad, that they also may need to bag on Leica, Canon, Nikon, and so forth...
(I know, different history, but I wonder if the issue here is even about an "open" system... or people's ire at hasselblad going alone as a potentially shrewd business move... as if, say, apple were to all of a sudden lock out computer hardware from non-apple companies for use with it's computers)
As happy as I am with the new phase announcements, the Hasselblad verdict doesn't strike me as positively. Maybe, in the end, it will be a good thing... time will tell.
End of the day for me counts - I am NOT gear agnostic. I will switch to a different system as soon as the features and the economics for this switch are ok for me! This is true for my H system as for my Nikon system etc.
Only system I am taking out of this (mainly due to sentimental and private reasons) is my M system, which I just want to keep and care for as a real marvel.
But all other gear and systems can be switched in the twinkle of an eye