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Phase One => not for photographers

Mike M

New member
ah...I understand what the OP is referring to now...he's referring to the "average" pro ....in other words...the guy in the middle....

The guy in the middle is kaput. He is the dead man walking. He's what was referred to earlier as the victim of an extinction event. There is a bottom and a top and not much in between. Welcome to "late capitalism."

So yeah...If I understand the OP correctly...The guy in the middle doesn't matter anymore. The guy with the 35mm DSLR is competing against everybody else in the world with the ability to read a strobist tutorial and a few hundred dollars for a rebel kit. He's not the middle anymore. He's the bottom now.
 

PeterA

Well-known member
Hrannar - no one 'needs' to pay that kind of money.

but let me say from experience - Leicas and MF cameras are a LOT cheaper than racing motorbikes, boats, yachts, private planes and helicopters.

my friend - if they keep me away from wild women - they are also great preventative medicine!:ROTFL::ROTFL:

the truth is that anyone can buy a CaNikon or a 30 megapixel MF back now for the same price - if not less. I don't think you can say that these companies are ignoring ANY demographic - except perhaps the camera phone. -:)

If I didn't live in Australia - Iceland would be my third choice! Your country is so beautiful - you can make fantastic pics with a $20 Holga!

Cheers.
 

Terry

New member
but let me say from experience - Leicas and MF cameras are a LOT cheaper than racing motorbikes, boats, yachts, private planes and helicopters.

Cheers.
Yeah, it seems like I did make this calculation with a different set of toys as I was deciding about an upgrade :D and yes I am :loco: these days.
 

Hauxon

Member
Thanks Yair for replying. Good to hear backs are selling in greater numbers. I work for a company in aerial photography and know expensive equipment. Interesting to hear the shift has been from working photographers to companies in the measurement business.

I guess Mike M is right about the middle layer missing. Maybe someone should begin producing what the Mamiya ZD attempted to be with new updated computer hardware. For me an IQ122 would be nice, especially if would be in the Pentax 645D price region.

Best, Hrannar
 

Audii-Dudii

Active member
but let me say from experience - Leicas and MF cameras are a LOT cheaper than racing motorbikes, boats, yachts, private planes and helicopters.
I can personally confirm this as well. If photographers think the depreciation hit they take when selling their used MFD gear is high, then they don't want to know about the size of the hit that is taken when selling a used race car and especially if it's a car that doesn't have a winning history...
 

fotografz

Well-known member
Thanks for example of the Paris street artists. You're right, there is an extinction event coming. The photographers that are excluded from the culling are the ones with the mechanical background to shoot "boring" technical and didactic work.
Nope. Those technoids are already going the way of the Dodo ... CGI made that happen.

The survivors will be the concept makers who happen to use a camera. Those able to conceive of, and express, ideas that solve problems, provoke action, or motivate decisions. Unlike now or the past, it'll require problem solving skills of a totally different kind, and versatility in turning those solutions into images.

That is already happening.

-Marc
 

Geoff

Well-known member
Doug and Yair make very good points that are overlooked too often on this and other forums: the older MFDB are very serviceable, take great shots and are still good to use. The P20 still takes lovely shots... and isn't expensive to get into, or a CV 16 either. Yes, the advantage of the newer ones is their portability, with more ISO range, and that makes them all the more attractive - the better integration and resolution are touted, but its their usability that makes them more attractive.

But like the old days of view cameras, if you are willing to work patiently with a tripod or in studio, the cheaper gear from a few years back is an extremely viable option. That our lust for "newer, better, greater" obscures this may be one fault of the 'net and our new era, but its true just the same. And it should be emphasized for the younger, less fortunate photogs.
 

SergeiR

New member
"you pricing sucks" is argument against every single photo- manufacturer out there.
Nikon users complain about high prices for Nikon gear, Olympus users biting their nails looking at prices for E-5 now, and Pentax lot.... dont even get them started how much they hate to overpay for loyalty.

Point is - photography is not a cheap hobby by itself. It still cheaper than bikes or cars though. Professional-side wise..

Do every single wee 'pro' studio need MF gear? Nope..

Its a fine balance between need/want.

Business class airtravel should be cheaper too, you know.. I am sick of traveling in economy/economy+ across the world.. ;)
 

AnthonyFlores

New member
Good thread! I'm not a Phase user and probably never will be ... the Leica S2 pretty much maxes out my needs and I can use the lenses for Cine work. So that will be the MF camera I will buy and use for a long time. They might tempt me someday with an S3, but it will probably be a "want" decision not a need ...

One thing that's interesting, Harannar, is that on other forums and threads I've heard people actually happy about the same thing you're complaining about -- regarding Leica. They like that the rich guys and enthusiasts in Asia buy up their cameras ... because it's allows Leica to grow, enhance, improve, ultimately produce more products. I mean, I don't ever really see their production getting mega-fast or huge, just not their model, and so their prices will have to be high. But there are literally countless enthusiasts (and pros) overjoyed with their M9's now because there is a market for their stuff, even at the high prices.

I would think likewise with Phase, their sales and growth has helped fuel these latest innovations. I'm impressed ... again, not going to buy, but impressed and their innovation will force others to work to catch up. Right now, given the demand and readiness of people to buy, they are clearly selling at the right price point. I guess that makes me a capitalist. Sorry :)

I do understand your frustration to an extent though ... in the world of Cinema, Arri and Panavision have been the leaders for many years. Then Red cameras came around offering 4k for a lot less money, and disrupted things. Since then, Arri responded with a 2k camera (Alexa) that has some cool features ... but is a whopping $70,000-80,000 and still not even the resolution of the original RedOne (although resolution is not everything.) Now, Red is about to release a new camera called the Epic that's technologically superior to anything there is ... it does 5k raw ... HDR ... high frame rates, low compression, the list goes on. It's been used on the latest Spiderman, Peter Jackson's coming film, and many other huge blockbusters. And it's smaller and ergonomically superior to the Arri cam.

So given all of this, you would expect it to be more expensive than the Arri Alexa, right? I mean ... if Red were like many companies they would charge huge bucks for it ... and yet Red is going to be selling it for $28,000 -- less than half the Arri cam. And they are offering their customers amazing upgrade options as well.

So all this is to perhaps echo your frustration that Phase is not being more like Red ... catering to the needs of mid-level pros who own their own gear, while also producing technology/innovation that can be used at the very highest level of the profession.

But I guess that's just not their business model.

Anthony

P.S. -- As far as the mid-level guy being dead, last I checked you could get an H4D-31 with lens for around $12,000 ... that's pretty attractive and I think there's a LOT that any professional could do with that camera/megapixel combo ... I don't think many clients would reject you because you used that camera rather than a Phase 140 or 160.
 

Mike M

New member
Nope. Those technoids are already going the way of the Dodo ... CGI made that happen.

The survivors will be the concept makers who happen to use a camera. Those able to conceive of, and express, ideas that solve problems, provoke action, or motivate decisions. Unlike now or the past, it'll require problem solving skills of a totally different kind, and versatility in turning those solutions into images.

That is already happening.

-Marc
A lot of what currently passes for the commercial arts is an imitation of the corporate work environment. There are a lot of people sitting at desks all day long and aren't really producing anything. The same thing is happening in the arts. There are a lot of people that think they can do everything... But when it comes down to it, few of them are experts at anything. Concepts, ideas, problem solving, solutions...bla bla bla...That's all corporate speak for producing nothing. The people that pull that off are salesmen more than anything else.

The audience is getting more sophisticated and they aren't falling for the same old tricks. CGI works for some things but not everything. I've shot stills for animators...so it can create work as much as take it away.
 

Jack

Sr. Administrator
Staff member
Pricing is based on what the market will bear and level of demand, not our own personal wish list.
Just wanted Marc's quote repeated since it is a PERFECT answer...

And then Pete's:

but let me say from experience - Leicas and MF cameras are a LOT cheaper than racing motorbikes, boats, yachts, private planes and helicopters.
All you have to do is calculate the depreciation hit you take driving even a $30,000 car off the lot, let alone a $50,000 car. The latter is about the same cost as the P65+ > IQ180 upgrade...
 

Valentin

New member
...
Pricing is based on what the market will bear and level of demand, not our own personal wish list....
-Marc
At the end of the day, this is what it comes down to. If nobody (or enough people) would buy those backs, Phase would either decide to stop making them (not profitable) or lower the price.

I would love to have a MFDB but I can't justify to have a business expense that large (and I'm not wealthy enough). My max that I would pay is in the neighborhood of $3,000. The back that I like and fits my criteria is 3 times of that (P30+). Obviously, I'm not a Phase customer.

I make my living from photography. Many people can't afford me. That's the way capitalism works.
 

ustein

Contributing Editor
>So all this is to perhaps echo your frustration that Phase is not being more like Red .

Maybe Pentax could be the "Red" for medium format if they pull it off.
 

AnthonyFlores

New member
Well, I was rather wondering if the working photographer were no longer the target market for digital back makers.
Obviously it's not -- I bet the majority of the Phase buyers (past, present, future) are still pros, they haven't reached "collectible" status and very few people would recognize a Phase or consider it prestigious in the same way they would a Leica ...

See my previous post. It's just that they are more using the Arri business model (where they charge as much as humanly possible, let the "middle guy" rent) ... rather than the one Red is using, which promotes ownership for pros of all levels/financial means. It's their choice, and if they truly have unnecessarily high margins ... then ultimately they leave themselves open just like Arri did for someone like Red to come in and produce an equal or better product at a lower price.

But until then, they will be the leader in the MF market ... though I have no idea if their unit sales/revenues are higher than Hasselblad.
 

Don Libby

Well-known member
I've been reading an awful lot of these threads every time we have a new upgrade announcement be it Canon with a new 1Ds, Leica with the M9 or Phase One back when it first announced the P65 and now with the newer backs. A lot of what I read and continue to read is people calling their equipment "toys". If you continue to feel your equipment is a toy then you'll continue to feel they are overpriced and the manufacture is gouging and money suckers.

I've never felt my equipment was a toy - rather they are tools to help me capture the light and beauty of landscape. They are the same as my computers which I either replace or continue to upgrade as time goes on. They are also the same tool as the software I use.

I've upgraded my laptop to 16GB RAM, my studio computer now has 40 GB RAM. I upgraded one of my studio monitors to a 30" and will in every likelihood get another. My software has all been upgraded - I'm now using C1 Pro 6 and have been using CS5 the minute it was released.

Tools each and everyone of them. They are a means by which I capture an image in order to process that image then print it in order to either fulfill a clients request or in hopes of someone likening it so much as to be willing to buy it.

My main computer (Dell Precision 690) is 5 years old and running very well. One monitor is less than a year old while the smaller is around 3 years and time to be replaced for several reasons. The laptop (Dell Precision M6400) is 2-years old and max'd to the gills with 2-ssd's and 16GM RAM and so far is working as it should.

Camera gear? My Cambo WRS and associated lenses is working well and I figure I've got many many more years of useful use out of them. My Leica is just a years old and it should hold up just as well so long as I keep it away from taking a bath as I cross streams.

All this leaves me with the main component, the P45+. Bottom line is I'm still making money with this back - heck I'm still making money with the P30+ which I haven't had since 2008. There's a lot to be said about the new upgrades being offered. I never felt the need or urgency to upgrade to the P65 and while I still feel that way with the new backs they look inviting. It almost appears that Phase had someone like me in mind when they engineered these things; internal leveling, focal masks and somewhat of a live preview are all things I'd love to have for my tech camera. All in all not bad at all for a tool. I also like the idea of 45% off which isn't too bad in my book.

Will I be getting one? The short answer is yes. The longer answer is not right away but soon. This answer as I write it is easier decision than attempting to justify going with a P65. Again I'm speaking about a tool.

There's been a lot of back and forth about cars and cameras. I've got just one more thought before I go back to work. I have another tool only this doesn't fit inside a camera bag. My jeep. I've had this jeep now for less than 2-years and already have over 35,000 miles and anticipate well over 50k by the end of the year. I claim mileage only for the IRS and this currently this is being used over 75% of the time for my business. Just another tool at my disposal.

Okay I lied - I have one more thought. If you do consider your equipment a tool and live in the US then think strongly about Section 179. $20k upgrade is expensive no matter how you look at it it's still $20k out of our pocket. However under Section 179 you can deduct the entire cost in one year and hopeful either reduce you tax obligation to close nothing or close to it either way saving you money.

Tool or toys. I guess the ultimate definition is up to you.

Okay back to work...

Don
 
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