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Phase One => not for photographers

JSK Rangefinder

New member
Since everyone here is so extremely excited about the new backs I like to spoil the party with boring discussing about marketing/price policy. This just NEEDS to be discussed. To me Phase One is heading in the same direction as Leica. The targeted customer is a wealthy amateur and few hundred pros working for corporate organizations (able to justify extreme expanses).
Hrannar Orn Hauksson

sorry Hrannar, I have to respectfully disagree and I'll tell you why... we shoot Canons perhaps more than anyone.. thats not only due to Phase or MF being expensive in general.. simply it's just faster to pick up DSLR and just finish the job... another bigger issue is delivering 30gig to 60gig of images/video to our customers on daily basis.. price could be argued though, but not a huge deal breaker considering that PhaseOnes foundation is formed on solid client base.. therefore you/we don't have to even buy new to stay current in the business..

Now, you're saying....

"The targeted customer is a wealthy amateur and few hundred
pros working for corporate organizations.."

"PhaseOne is heading in the same direction as Leica"

not at all.. due to the fact that you can't rent Leica but you CAN rent PhaseOne DB almost anywhere in the world.. not to mention using their standard C1 interface/software, finding assistants who understand the interface/platform, etc. not to mention that PhaseOne is basically standard because it simply works when others have failed.. and the list goes even further making it more affordable and more logical investment than Hasselblad, Leaf, Sinar or... obviously Haasy closed their platform to increase their cash flow/survive.. Hy6 and its founders couldn't see the obvious and that's why they are where they are today.. also that's why you won't see many business brains wasting time on that platform even though many have invested and they still like it.. but one thing I thing PhaseOne should have done though is get it under $40,000,00 even if they applied North American virtual know-how/discount and made it 39,999.00 :)

there are number of things to like about Hassy but if I was buying today my 90% choice would be PhaseOne

there are other things I'm concerned about PhaseOne but it's not for this thread..
 

Paratom

Well-known member
I dont agree. Maybe it would be nice to get MF gear for less money - but those companies also have to survive and cover their cost.
Very often it is 50% (or even more) more expensive to get 1% higher quality. Look at cars, high fidelity, watches etc etc.
Number of sold cameras/backs is low and cost for service is high.

What I dont understand is why Nikon and Canon cant bring a MF-like CCD without AA filter into their body to allow same IQ as digital backs just with a little less resoltion.
 

Hauxon

Member
To Don and others. I mean no disrespect to any of current MF digtal userbase, they are just not typical working photographers. I might have stretched some of my assumtions to far to make people think. Some are fortunate enough to have a healthy business running and for most a few $k a year on equipment is just a normal expense. My feeling is however that for most of working pg's the business is weak or a struggle. That's why I'm thinking the modern MF systems are for technical stuff, view cameras etc. and not really target at the mass who take seniour pictures, weddings, family portraits etc. for a living. But as has already been pointed out, MF digital is not really needed for any of these.

Hopefully the MF back manufacturers will someday be able to serve more of us. There has been some progress in making the entry less expensive by offering old technology at lower prices but not to the level of making the switch alluring enough to bite (for most of us).

Best, Hrannar
 

SergeiR

New member
To Don and others. I mean no disrespect to any of current MF digtal userbase, they are just not typical working photographers.
Please, define "normal"? I mean i pride myself in not being "normal", but just pray - tell.. ;)

Oh.. if you define those as people who doing "ordinary jobs" - its wrong. Quite a lot of people on that front do extra-super-cool job.

Allow me to draw you similar picture.
Cropped sensor dSLR vs full size sensor dSLR. Most of "ordinary people" dont need it. But here it is - its getting more affordable. Still - pro- level dSLR cost rather nasty comparing to regular 600$ a pop.. And many people complain b/c they cant get one. They want it. They cant ever possibly shoot for living without it. Yet - they do.

Many of MF owners actually do shoot "normal" stuff as well, when pace of MF shooting is suitable for the task and quality is needed.

Life is fun that way ;)
 

jonoslack

Active member
And then Pete's:



All you have to do is calculate the depreciation hit you take driving even a $30,000 car off the lot, let alone a $50,000 car. The latter is about the same cost as the P65+ > IQ180 upgrade...
Whereas, if you buy $50,000 of Leica M lenses . . . . . and then decide you'd rather take pictures with your iphone, the losses will be pretty minimal.

Is that true of Phase backs? I suspect they devalue more like cars?
 

Don Libby

Well-known member
I kinda sorta agree that these newer backs are more suitable for a tech camera and that's why I'm looking at them. My P45+ remains a tool that is connected to the rear of my WRS.

Hell I stopped being anywhere near "normal" years ago and am enjoying life way more than ever before.

Cheers

Don

Being normal is just overrated :D
 

JSK Rangefinder

New member




Doug, I appreciate the links.. there are even few more places where you can see LEICA for rent but not nearly enough to compare with Phase/Hasselblad.. on a positive note thats a good step in the right direction for Leica.. however i'm afraid they will never reach the standard in the working environment.. they simply don't have apparent number of cameras out there to be able to lead..



"due to the fact that you can't rent Leica but you CAN rent PhaseOne DB almost anywhere in the world..

PS: I finished my sentence with anywhere in the world.. even though i meant almost EVERYWHERE in the world.. :)
 

cs750

Member
I think this whole discussion overlooks some very important points. Talk of "rich guys" or uniquely successful Pros only being able to afford the premium products doesn't really focus on the fact that there will always be premium products and there will always be companies who are attempting to sell products cheaper hoping to be able to offer a good enough package to get their share of customers. The "tension" between these competing interests is good for photography as a whole. The market place will resolve these issues and we All will benefit.
 

Bill Caulfeild-Browne

Well-known member
Fotografz said pricing is based on what the market will bear....not our personal wish list.

He is absolutely right. Phase doesn't owe us anything except value for our money. They are under no socialist obligation to appeal to any particular group, wealthy, professional or otherwise.

I've had a long career in marketing and one thing I know for sure - in the long run the customer determines the price anything will sell for. If you charge too much, you go out of business. If you charge too little, you go out of business. The customer alone decides what is too much.

(The only exception is with monopolistic services such as those of government...!)

Bill
 

Anders_HK

Member
Yes, and if you've ever used an Aptus, any Aptus, you'll also quickly realize what a joy they are to use too vs a button driven DSLR.
AMEN :thumbs::thumbs::thumbs:

Really enjoy my Aptus... b.t.w. when will there be release of the Aptus-III with similar features to IQs, but LEAF way??? Should be simpler than for Hassy, due Leaf is Phase One company :D ... waiting... :watch:

Regards
Anders
 
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Shelby Lewis

Guest
There is another misconception in this thread... one that says working pros (and by extension, not "rich" guys) don't shoot MF digital. They may not shoot aptus ii-12 or iq180. I know it is, indeed, a small segment but I know several wedding and portrait photographers not on this board who have moved to at least part time MF work due to the low prices available in the refurb/used markets. Several more have plans to...

This is actually a great time for phase/leaf to put out new uber-backs... since the other backs remain in production, and the used/refurb market continues to become more affordable, there is now a very wide range of prices/capabilities available to the working photographer.

I've gotten into a leaf 28mp system, two lenses, and camera body for way under $10K. This is less than d3x pricing (although markedly different capabilities).

(I think it's a great time for MF. Just look at all the 22mp backs being bought and used on this board these days! ZDs, Aptus 22, you name it!)
 

SergeiR

New member
Being typical is no necessarily being normal, right?! :D
Aye :)

I mean i wouldnt mind is upgrade to IQ180 / 160 would cost me like 3-5K if i were to give up both of my 22mp backs and couple of 645 older bodies tossed in - i most likely will be there tomorrow, ordering one. LUCKILY its a bit more ;) So temptation, while there is a bit less.

Yet - i really really want one. B/c want full frame and b/c i do know i can use quality and better ergonomics - as i am very very touchy about it. Speed - dont care that much, 1.1fps is fine with me, i have good sense of timing on when to press button. And weather sealing is something i am kind of touchy about, being traveling and shooting out on the streets/fields a lot.

I know that single publication in magazine wont pay for it. Heck, i am sure that at present day it will take a bit of time to rebound those money, given that i wont pick up 6-8 weddings in row (i wont. i hate it. i really really REALLY do hate it, its like too much hard work), but oh well :)

Point to my rumble is - it would be nice to have things we really want in life to be cheaper and more "affordable". But nice things do cost. And it takes time to get there ;) Overwise next time you shooting some event (wedding, graduation, party..whatever) - every uncle Ron and his dog would be standing there with nice gear on, unknown to bunch of scruff , who like to call themselves "photographers" and shoot pictures and then you will have to wait through another cycle of consumer education till people realize that not everyone with good camera is photographer who deserves to be paid. As it is been for past year, with 35mm FF marching on.
 

ptomsu

Workshop Member
Actually there is nothing new about all of this. The IQ series is top of the market today and it costs its price. This is only fair and of course a vendor needs to make use of such an advantage.

If I would really need a IQ80 or IQ60 I would simply buy one and of course I could find a way how to finance it, as almost anybody can if this is a serious and needed tool to have. I simply do not see the need currently for me.

And unfortunately I still do not see the Phase camera being up to the level of the IQ backs. Or at least I cannot get used to it.

I see it as the world best backs with world leading SW and the world best lenses (if we talk about Schneider glass) but the missing link between those 2 high quality things is the camera body in the middle. If I am allowed to dream and this would be Leica made body, then the whole chain would be consistent. If I dream even more and there would be also some Leica made lenses then even better.

But reality is what is offered today. Maybe for tech camera shooters a IQ back is a real advantage and there is then also the Phase body gone out of the way. But I again am no tech camera shooter.

So let the photographers find out themselves what they need and with what system they are happy. IQ backs in combination with C1Pro are definitely leading edge and not topped by anything on the market today. Thus unfortunately Phase can dictate the price and will continue to do so for a long time to come ;)
 

Valentin

New member
...

Point to my rumble is - it would be nice to have things we really want in life to be cheaper and more "affordable". But nice things do cost. And it takes time to get there ;) Overwise next time you shooting some event (wedding, graduation, party..whatever) - every uncle Ron and his dog would be standing there with nice gear on, unknown to bunch of scruff , who like to call themselves "photographers" and shoot pictures and then you will have to wait through another cycle of consumer education till people realize that not everyone with good camera is photographer who deserves to be paid. As it is been for past year, with 35mm FF marching on.

I agree (still waiting for that P30+ to hit the $3k mark :) ). You will be surprised how many guests at weddings have same gear I do. Luckly, that's not the criteria when brides book me :)

I tape all the names on my gear and it's funny to see the guest trying to see what cameras I use :D
 
R

Ronan

Guest
Point is - photography is not a cheap hobby by itself. It still cheaper than bikes or cars though. Professional-side wise..
Ah... Those new digital backs are just as expensive as my Porsche...

I won't even compare them to the price of my '02 stang...

*sigh* :bugeyes:
 
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Shelby Lewis

Guest
Ah... Those new digital backs are just as expensive as my Porsche...
I had the money to buy my new back (not one of THOSE backs :D) because I still drive a toyota corolla I bought in 1998!

All the models/musicians that I shoot will think my gear is the best in town! (as long as they don't see what I drive up in.) :ROTFL:
 

Hauxon

Member
Fotografz said pricing is based on what the market will bear....not our personal wish list.

He is absolutely right. Phase doesn't owe us anything except value for our money. They are under no socialist obligation to appeal to any particular group, wealthy, professional or otherwise.

I've had a long career in marketing and one thing I know for sure - in the long run the customer determines the price anything will sell for. If you charge too much, you go out of business. If you charge too little, you go out of business. The customer alone decides what is too much.

(The only exception is with monopolistic services such as those of government...!)

Bill
This will be my final reply to the thread.

* When you decide to produce something you have to decide the target audience for your product. It may be the photographer requiring the cutting edge in image quality witch is willing to pay premium for the product. It might also be the traditional medium format user of the film days, willing to pay some but not the price of a sports car for the film back replacement.

* Phase One and other manufacurers have costs they need to cover when selling the product, roughly R&D, manufacturing, marketing and profit. Basic manufacturing and materials for a single digital back is not more than few thousand usd. Now Phase needs to decide if they are able to sell 10000 units or 100 to cover the costs. This is initially what decides the price, there may be a market for 200 units at $45000 or 2000 units at $15000 or 10000 units at $9990.

* This thread is about if the desicion to produce few hundred units a year is the right desicion for these companies at this point in time. Changing strategy is risky, why change something that works, right? Well I think companies constantly need to rethink their business and some day sooner or later this model won't work anymore. Running an organization is about detecting change and responding to it, we know all too well how the lack of acting to changes makes empires crumble. We have been looking at lot of companies die or merge lately so it's not an off world assumtion to believe the selling a few hundred units a year is simply not working for these companies.

Hrannar Örn Hauksson
 
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