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Hasselblad vs Phase One

Quentin_Bargate

Well-known member
... This was all ok when they had product that was competitive with the standards being set by other manufacturers. Alas this has not been the case and with the launch of the Aptus 12 from Leaf and the IQ series from Phase the gap just opened up further.

Cheers,

A comment of such palpable nonesense as above is surely better suited to dpreview than a serious forum like this, unless of course the only measure of quality is the absolute number of pixels on offer. Life and the available choices are a little more complex than this.
 

fotografz

Well-known member
Folks I fundamentality disagree with this system is for that or this for this style of shooting. Any shooter worth his salt can shoot any system in any situation be it fashion, portrait, landscape and such. I think that is all BS IMHO because I know I can. Just give me any cam and I will get it done. Thats my job is too figure it out. Sure some maybe easier and some system maybe harder no question. But throw a Hassy at me or a Phase and i will bring home the bacon just like any other good shooter out there. The difference are really outside the shooting box and how the kits are setup. Hassy i can't take one back and stick it on another body unless it is calibrated for that back for example . It's more about the restrictions, switching up and backup solutions are where these systems are apart. Be it closed / open or whatever that will never stop a shooter from getting images on any shoot of any style. Somehow they will figure it out how to get it done and if they don't someone else will.

I'm on my get out there and work it roll this morning. I'm banning myself . LOL
FYI, I just asked this question ... and as far as I was told, I can order a H4DXX, and a second H4D body and have it calibrated/integrated exactly the same as the first one for a seamless back-up.

-Marc
 

Nick-T

New member
I'm bookmarking this thread. When phase come out with their new body in say 18 months I'll eat my hat if you are able to put any other back on it. This whole open closed thing is nonsense. Since when could you put a Canon chip in a Nikon. Hey wait a minute, that Afi camera, that was open right? Right?
Nick-T
 

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
I know you can. There is a fee if I am not mistaken 500. David can you confirm but my real point was each system has some restrictions, limitations and such. Being closed does not always mean better nor does being open does it. Phase gives you some extra options on mount and such. We all know the differences but this integrated is better is not always true. I have no issues at all with switching backs, bodies, and or lenses around and 3 lens companies are supported for corrections actually 4. So I know the argument goes around several hundred times but let's put the petal to the metal for real work it does not matter. For marketing, sales and out of the shooting box is really the debate ( I should add forum chatter). But I am really not in the mood too and honestly don't care , we buy what we buy because that is what we think will work best for each of us. You know i hate these kinds of debates. Kind of pointless if you think about it.
 

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
I'm bookmarking this thread. When phase come out with their new body in say 18 months I'll eat my hat if you are able to put any other back on it. This whole open closed thing is nonsense. Since when could you put a Canon chip in a Nikon. Hey wait a minute, that Afi camera, that was open right? Right?
Nick-T
Nick you can put a Leaf on it which BTW is a Phase product. LOL

Sorry I am a little feisty today.
 

thomas

New member
We all know the differences but this integrated is better is not always true. I have no issues at all with switching backs, bodies, and or lenses around and 3 lens companies are supported for corrections actually 4. So I know the argument goes around several hundred times but let's put the petal to the metal for real work it does not matter. For marketing, sales and out of the shooting box is really the debate ( I should add forum chatter).
I do not agree. "integrated" goes hand in hand with adjustment of lens/body/sensor which is essential to meet the extremely tight tolerances with regard to accurate focusing. For the very same reason Alpa designed a shimmed interface, Arca designed its highrez focussing mechanism and current DSLRs allow AF micro adjustment. To my knowledge Phase doesn't provide such a feature in the DF camera; not even focus shift compensation (AFAIK).
 

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
Thomas Alpa requires that with any BACK regardless of brand.

My Point is my DF no matter what back I put on it Leaf or Phase in different flavors does not require that and it does not seem to matter everything seems to work as any other integrated system. Would a AF focus adjustment be helpful. Sure love to have it like my Sony but I don't seem to be off with any lens I have used either. Your Contax does not have that either and no one complains from the Contax camp on that.
 

thomas

New member
Thomas Alpa requires that with any BACK regardless of brand.
of course. But I wasn't refering to the open/closed system question... but to a "integrated" system.
Of course Phase could provide an individual adjustemt of cameras/sensors as well... but they just don't do it.

My Point is my DF no matter what back I put on it Leaf or Phase in different flavors does not require that and it does not seem to matter everything seems to work as any other integrated system.
by design this is not possible. No company makes mechanical parts in a series within tolerances of 0.06mm... Mircoadjustment is required.

edit:
Your Contax does not have that either and no one complains from the Contax camp on that.
Actually I don't use AF on the Contax (at least very rarely). I use spilt image screens and the screens are adjusted carefully to match the sensor spacing of my DB (well... with shims, naturally).
 

dougpeterson

Workshop Member
FYI, I just asked this question ... and as far as I was told, I can order a H4DXX, and a second H4D body and have it calibrated/integrated exactly the same as the first one for a seamless back-up.
Hassy's system of requiring calibration/integration to be able to use a body has it's benefits. Indeed it should more or less guarentee you never have an issue with focus calibration between a given camera-back and back.

Phase's system of allowing the user to put any back on any body opens up the possibility for camera-back focus miscalibration. That is scary on paper. However, the reality is in three years, I've only had three cases I can remember where someone was dissatisfied with the registration of a body-back system. All three were addressed for free with a quick visit to the NY office - leading to the same outcome as hassy's system of requiring calibration/registration in order to use a particular back and body.

With a Phase One back you can use any body with any back (of the same mount of course) without "calibration/integration" from the factory. This means that in a crises you can use any body from a rental house or have your dealer overnight you a body and you can stick your back on it and go.

The cost of having a backup is also very low with Phase's system since you can also use older bodies such as the AFD1, AFD2, and AFD3 without "calibration/integration". An AFD1 ($399) is a slow and mediocre body - but as a backup for a day while you get another DF rented/shipped in it would be perfectly fine.

The difference of having to rent a body only rather than a body and back kit is not minor. A body is often around $60/day and a back around $400-$600/day. Insurance requirements to rent a body is around $1-3k rather than $10k-$40k for a digital back.

In three years I've seen only a handful of back failures (no moving parts) while I've seen a dozen or more camera body failures (shutter/mirror are moving parts). So a backup body to me is much more important than a backup back.


I thought I saw somewhere that you said that it was in beta testing?
Yaya was referring to the thread linked below which I took to mean the H4D-60 could not be presently used on a tech camera, and that the firmware for doing such was in beta. Did yaya and I missread that?

http://forum.getdpi.com/forum/showpost.php?p=285990&postcount=7

Doug Peterson (e-mail Me)
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Head of Technical Services, Capture Integration
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National: 877.217.9870 *| *Cell: 740.707.2183
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thomas

New member
However, the reality is in three years, I've only had three cases I can remember where someone was dissatisfied with the registration of a body-back system.
you can double that rate ... the 4 (actually 5) backs I used in the last 3 years were all a bit different. Totally usable! But still slightly different if you are anal about focusing (and I have to admit: I am).
 
Phase's system of allowing the user to put any back on any body opens up the possibility for camera-back focus miscalibration. That is scary on paper. However, the reality is in three years, I've only had three cases I can remember where someone was dissatisfied with the registration of a body-back system. All three were addressed for free with a quick visit to the NY office - leading to the same outcome as hassy's system of requiring calibration/registration in order to use a particular back and body.
Sorry Doug but it isn't the same at all.

We don't sell separate backs and bodies. When you buy an H4D it is sent to you as a package, calibrated tested and ready.

Its not a quick visit to the NY office if you live on the other side of the USA, or if you live in Australia and your nearest service centre for adjustment is where???

Should an H4D owner think they would like a spare body then 9 times out of ten they order it when they order their H4D. The two bodies are then calibrated together.
 

atanabe

Member
I have to agree with Guy that any good photographer can produce great images given any tool. The argument that one camera is better than another is purely subjective in my opinion. Also my opinion, that the digital technology exceeds the capabilities of most of their owners.

The most important thing to look for when buying in an environment where there is little support such as the Middle East, is who will help in an emergency? Is there any local dealer support? Is there a local importer that can expedite things? Those to me are the most important ones when making a gear choice. Phase, Hasselblad, Leica they are all capable platforms with individual plusses and minuses but all capable.
 

PeterA

Well-known member
Lets be clear here - there are only two companies who genuinely provide a back which can be switched between body types via adaptors at any time.
These are the genuine open system backs.

These back types are Sinar and Hasselblad CF. Both systems allow users to change adaptors and use ANY MF camera they wish to use when they wish to use it - ie at any time.

This is a compelling value proposition for people who have multiple platforms of camera types and lenses.

It is misleading for Phase One to say that they are an 'open' system - when the buyer is locked into one type of camera mount. If you wish to change camera mount you have to send the back in to have it changed. Ok you can change - but it is a hassle and then you are locked into the new one camera mount.

Interestingly - the ONLY camera which Phase One doesn't support is the Hy6/Afi

On numerous threads in numerous forums - the question has been asked - why not?

The answer?- silence.

I find this strange - especially since Leaf does support this mount.


So all these comapnies play their games - which is fine - but it is rather tiresome to hear the same BS about open systems versus closed systems - it is a conscious strategy which uses the trick of say something often enough and loud enough - it must be true.

Ok if the definition of open is any mount you choose - fine. But thisis a limited 'definition' and self serving. Still even this limited definition - doesn't answer the quesiton why not Hy6/Afi?

Pete
 

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
Pete the answer to that from anyone at Phase will be we do support the AFI in the Leaf back. Its a 3 product line company. Phase, Leaf and Mamiya and that is what they will tell you.

I know I know but that is how they look at it. One line in there product inventory supports it .
 

MaxKißler

New member
Hey guys,

I know I'm somewhat new to this awesome forum, so don't club me to pieces if I may chime in here: Talk less and capture more!

I mean look at the OP, he must be thinking :wtf: have I done. They're drawing the poleaxes in this fiery debate... :deadhorse:

It's not like anybody was forced to buy any of those systems. I do understand that some people out there may feel betrayed by Hassy for closing their system but does this make it any less amazing?

Since Phase is favouring Sensor+ over XPose+ in the new backs I don't see that much of a difference to the Hassy backs. (XPose+: one of those things that I think is soo cool about the Phase Backs).
Of course the fancy new screen. I don't want to spoil the hype but Hassy could match up in app. a year I bet.

Hey don't get me wrong, I do know I'm generalizing a lot here...
What seems to be more important: a solid market seems to have established.

So everybody be happy and have a couple of Becks!
 

jlm

Workshop Member
no popcorn yet, only sipping a nice domaine du bagnol cassis blanc, preparing a salade Nicoise using some tuna i canned last summer...

that after a few very stressful 14 hour wrk days
 

PeterA

Well-known member
Pete the answer to that from anyone at Phase will be we do support the AFI in the Leaf back. Its a 3 product line company. Phase, Leaf and Mamiya and that is what they will tell you.

I know I know but that is how they look at it. One line in there product inventory supports it .
yeah I know Guy - and I have nothing against Leaf at all - in fact I rate the backs very highly..I just dont like the hanging battery and I really like the look of the IQ system now...if Leaf has the same LCD etc - no problem - but it doesn't..

perfect world for me is to keep the Hy6 and have an IQ back on it - and my Alpa stuff..

*frustrated but hey I will get over it -:)
 
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