IQ 180: first handling: to upgrade or not?

[Steve Hendrix]

That's kind of what I'm talking about Steve - Live View is being touted as the second coming of Christ for digital backs and yet it sounds like they don't have any idea if it will even work as advertised or not (I'm not talking about "stunning" - only to work as advertised). I do expect it to work and work well - especially since I am paying so much for this feature and it is one of the main selling points of this new series of backs. If they were not sure if it would work as advertised or not then why did they hype it so much? (To sell backs of course, ha, ha!)

I'm confident that Phase will get it right, I just hope it doesn't take them too long to deliver, or wait until the next version of IQ backs to get it right with some lame-duck version on this most expensive back in the world this time around. Lots of crossed fingers I'm sure - on both sides of the room.

I don't know who is touting it quite that passionately. Oddly, I tripped over to Phase One's website and could hardly find a mention of it. I'm guardedly optimistic - it would be a huge faux pas to have the Live View not work better than it does today on the computer. I just haven't really seen much hype about Live View - especially compared to the Retina-type screen itself, which is bearing most of the marketing department's heavy lifting.


Steve Hendrix

 

[stephengilbert]

I think the people who are touting live view are posters on internet forums.

 

[Joseph Woodland]

Hey Steve, I didn't have to look nearly as far as you - I just checked your own Capture Integration web site and the Live View function is listed second on the graphic at the top of your IQ announcement page (True Live View), and third on the list of great new features of these backs (...Live View on the Back’s LCD Without a Computer...The Phase One IQ will be the first digital back to allow live view on the digital back without a computer. By building in a total of 9 cores worth of processing, including custom designed dedicated processors, and by working closely with DALSA, Phase One has been able to do what was previously thought to be impossible. The refresh rate and flexibility (concerning scene contrast) will be sufficient to allow still life, interior, architectural, and landscape photographers the ability to check focus in real-time without the need to lug a laptop along...Live View on the back will make the Phase One IQ the best back in the world for users of technical and view cameras....).

Kind of sounds like touting this as a great new feature to me, don't you? It certainly did catch my eye and is one of the reasons why I ordered the back the very first day - I'm a tech camera user, and again I expect it to work as advertised. I'm assuming it will work just great and what Guy says is right on the money. In fact I bet 44 grand on it.

EDIT: you are correct that I don't see it touted on the Phase One web site, nor was it in the press release - are you guys the only ones advertising this as a great new feature? Hum, now that really has me wondering - is this going to be a feature on the new back or not? Wow, perhaps not.

 

[dougpeterson]

Hey Steve, I didn't have to look nearly as far as you - I just checked your own Capture Integration web site and the Live View function is listed second on the graphic at the top of your IQ announcement page (True Live View), and third on the list of great new features of these backs (...Live View on the Back’s LCD Without a Computer...The Phase One IQ will be the first digital back to allow live view on the digital back without a computer. By building in a total of 9 cores worth of processing, including custom designed dedicated processors, and by working closely with DALSA, Phase One has been able to do what was previously thought to be impossible. The refresh rate and flexibility (concerning scene contrast) will be sufficient to allow still life, interior, architectural, and landscape photographers the ability to check focus in real-time without the need to lug a laptop along...Live View on the back will make the Phase One IQ the best back in the world for users of technical and view cameras....).

Kind of sounds like touting this as a great new feature to me, don't you? It certainly did catch my eye and is one of the reasons why I ordered the back the very first day - I'm a tech camera user, and again I expect it to work as advertised. I'm assuming it will work just great and what Guy says is right on the money. In fact I bet 44 grand on it.

EDIT: you are correct that I don't see it touted on the Phase One web site, nor was it in the press release - are you guys the only ones advertising this as a great new feature? Hum, now that really has me wondering - is this going to be a feature on the new back or not? Wow, perhaps not.

"it will not be possible to use this feature off of a tripod due to the limitations of CCD sensors" <--- This was left out of your quote. I have now also added " - expectations are for 1fps to 3fps" to help clarify further that this is not 5DII CMOS based live view. The last thing CI wants to do is build false expectations.

It was presented to us this way at the pre-release meeting in Dubai as well as the dealer online presentation. Kevin Raber's video interview on LL and the LL pre-release article also mention it. Most MF Dealers don't bother to do any of their own marketing/analysis/advertising and instead copy paste from phase's press release and since the press release didn't mention it they would not have either.

I'd also encourage realistic expectations on what can be accomplished with CCD live view. However, what we've been told is it will be usable in the field on a tech camera on a tripod for live focusing and composition - which is all I need to consider it a major feature. It likely will not be "sexy" - but even if there is a lot of noise/weird-color/70s-TV-effects or such then the practical among us will be overjoyed - ANYTHING that provides the ability to focus tech cameras reliably (including with swings and tilts and at any arbitrary aperture) will be a major coup. Of course the only proof is in the pudding and we will keep you apprised if and when they show us a prototype with this feature enabled.

Doug Peterson (e-mail Me)
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[Joseph Woodland]

I was just saying that it seems like you guys who have been touting this great new feature early on now seem to be backing off and that has people wondering if it is real or not. "but even if there is a lot of noise/weird-color/70s-TV-effects" you say - goodness, I hope not on my new $44,000 back with that great screen! Perhaps you would be overjoyed Doug with dismal performance like this, but I would not be.

My expectations are quite high for this new feature, just like the price of the back - why would anyone expect any less?

 

[Steve Hendrix]

Hey Steve, I didn't have to look nearly as far as you - I just checked your own Capture Integration web site and the Live View function is listed second on the graphic at the top of your IQ announcement page (True Live View), and third on the list of great new features of these backs (...Live View on the Back’s LCD Without a Computer...The Phase One IQ will be the first digital back to allow live view on the digital back without a computer. By building in a total of 9 cores worth of processing, including custom designed dedicated processors, and by working closely with DALSA, Phase One has been able to do what was previously thought to be impossible. The refresh rate and flexibility (concerning scene contrast) will be sufficient to allow still life, interior, architectural, and landscape photographers the ability to check focus in real-time without the need to lug a laptop along...Live View on the back will make the Phase One IQ the best back in the world for users of technical and view cameras....).

Kind of sounds like touting this as a great new feature to me, don't you? It certainly did catch my eye and is one of the reasons why I ordered the back the very first day - I'm a tech camera user, and again I expect it to work as advertised. I'm assuming it will work just great and what Guy says is right on the money. In fact I bet 44 grand on it.

EDIT: you are correct that I don't see it touted on the Phase One web site, nor was it in the press release - are you guys the only ones advertising this as a great new feature? Hum, now that really has me wondering - is this going to be a feature on the new back or not? Wow, perhaps not.

Joseph, I'm really not sure what you're getting at. You said you would be pissed if Live View didn't work as advertised. Well, it has barely been advertised in any objective, quantitative manner that one would be able to deduce the effectiveness of it. And I offered my past experience with CCD-based Live View as a reality check.

It is possible Phase One is not screaming Live View because considering the estimated eta is 3 months away, they surely still have some work to do on it and it isn't even something they can currently demonstrate.

We have Live View listed as the 4th orange headline down on the IQ page from our website. I had no idea Phase One was barely mentioning it. I guess I'm wondering why you feel it is being hyped so hard? In Dubai the weekend before the launch, Dave Gallagher, representing Capture Integration - one of only two USA dealers present - attended a dealer conference on the product and all of the Capture Integration team participated in a conference call/webinar presentation of the product. In that presentation, we were told that the IQ would offer in-camera Live View. In further discussions, we were told Live View would be usable enough to allow for in the field use.

So - we have posted what we have been told by Phase One. There is no hype, I don't really know what placement on our website you would find more appropriate of the 8 orange highlighted headlines on the IQ page, perhaps #7, ahead of USB2/USB3/FW800/FW400?

And if you read the wording, it seems fairly restrained "sufficient to allow….the ability to check focus in real-time…." That is about as hyped as we got Joseph, the rest of the paragraph is technical information.

You didn't buy your IQ180 from us so I don't know what kind of experience you had with your dealer on the description of Live View ability that prompted you to make your purchase. But to say that we are hyping it as the second coming of Jesus Christ seems well….kind of blatantly exaggerated. IMO.


Steve Hendrix

 

[gazwas]

Sorry Steve but any mention by you, Phase or who ever of a liveview function on a MFD camera system will automatically create hype. The two most requested features by photographers for years in a MFD system has been better screens and liveview.

If liveview doesn't work yet the why even mention it as a release feature of the new IQ backs?

 

[Bob]

Sorry Steve but any mention by you, Phase or who ever of a liveview function on a MFD camera system will automatically create hype. The two most requested features by photographers for years in a MFD system has been better screens and liveview.

If liveview doesn't work yet the why even mention it as a release feature of the new IQ backs?

Not trying to be an apologist for anyone but really...
1) current phase backs have a liveview function when tethered to C1
2) New lcd plus more internal speed and processing capabilities seems to make a liveview kind of thing entirely possible.
3) Hey it is a ccd sensor. We love them for what hey are but we have to understand their limitations. That means liveview is entirely possible but it will not be fast.
4) manufacturer has put the function in their product secs
5) Therefore if the back does not have a live view function within the limitations of a ccd sensor when it ships it does not meet specifications.
6) If it is that important to you put that caveat in your purchase order.
Q.E.D.
-bob

 

[Joseph Woodland]

Gosh I didn't mean to get you CI sales people so flustered. I was just pointing out facts, that's all. It is clear that you are trying to lower the Live View expectations and that is fine - I just hope Phase One comes through with the real deal that we are paying so much for, and that will be great. And if they don't, well I guess perhaps some of us got a little duped by all the hype. I'm just a lowly little customer and can't compete with you guys online so please don't pay any further attention to me.

 

[Don Libby]

The new backs are so darn tempting. The main aspect that has been tempting me is the ability to tap the screen and get an instant 100% check on image issues. The second aspect is the thought of the focus mask followed by an increase in overall image quality shooting either 60 or 80 megapixels. I know I'd be happy as a pig in stuff that smells with the 60 however I know me and at some point in time I'd say to myself - "as good as that image looks at 60 how much better will it look at 80?". Then again as I review the images I've shot with the P45+ they don't exactly suck.

I'm also having this running conversation with myself where I remind myself that too much resolution could be a bad thing. There's been plenty of times where I've ended up with various sizes of specks in the sky only to find out they were either birds or airplanes and I had to get rid of them in order to make the image look okay. Same thing has happened as I've shot water - debris on the water can print like a printer error and I've had to remove them to get a proper print.

After all the conversations I've had with myself I've come to the decision that I do want to upgrade while at the present time I don't need to. I'm still sitting on the fence about a 60 or 80 and until I've had the time to experience both I'll wait and keep reading what folks are saying here as well as looking at the images from the various tests. :watch:

Bottom line is I now have a huge headache....

Don

 

[Steve Hendrix]

Sorry Steve but any mention by you, Phase or who ever of a liveview function on a MFD camera system will automatically create hype. The two most requested features by photographers for years in a MFD system has been better screens and liveview.

If liveview doesn't work yet the why even mention it as a release feature of the new IQ backs?

In the way you have stated this, the accountability for the hype belongs as much to the people who foment the information into hype as much as the source of the information.

A source of hype must subsist of exaggerated claims or flamboyant or dramatic methods. There is nothing of the sort in our description of Live View, which after all, is a feature of the product! To say we create hype by listing a product's features is, well....I don't know what that is, but it certainly defies any logic.

If consumers get hyped over a feature, especially when the feature has been described quite modestly, that does not mean the source "hyped" anything. I mean we state, "the Live View will be sufficient......." Sufficient? Sufficient? Wow, what hype!!!

Listen, we know how to hype something. If we already knew and felt this Live View was going to be the greatest Live View you've ever seen we would be screaming it. We don't know. We have stated what we have been told to expect, and even then, modestly. If anything, I think we are actually responsible for damping down the hype over Live View by soberly describing the expected performance.


Steve Hendrix

 

[Guy Mancuso]

I know Jack and I mentioned it in our review and Kevin mentioned it on the video but If I hyped anything than that would be the 100-400 zoom LCD. That I could see , touch and confirm. Now that was awesome and won me over by a country mile and i freely admit that. Personally I put live view kind of a extra feature but I am a polaroid type of shooter also. So I may shoot and adjust and the zoom and focus mask feature maybe all i ever use. I think live view would be very nice but my expectations of it maybe not as high as others. But that is me

 

[Steve Hendrix]

Gosh I didn't mean to get you CI sales people so flustered. I was just pointing out facts, that's all. It is clear that you are trying to lower the Live View expectations and that is fine - I just hope Phase One comes through with the real deal that we are paying so much for, and that will be great. And if they don't, well I guess perhaps some of us got a little duped by all the hype. I'm just a lowly little customer and can't compete with you guys online so please don't pay any further attention to me.

Joseph - that is ok. As a sales and service organization, we are only as good as our performance and our reputation. True integrity is unfortunately, rare in the world, and especially in the segment of equipment sales. We've worked hard to establish it and sometimes as a result, we are sensitive if it appears to be in question. Probably over sensitive.

We don't take our responsibilities lightly. On a daily basis we take thousands of dollars from our clients in exchange for products which have to perform at a very high level and work in the way that our clients expect. If they don't, the results can be disastrous.

We partner with companies that create amazing products but often market them in ways that don't hold up in real world situations. We strive to illustrate exactly what those real world capabilities are, which is not always easy.

I appreciate that you brought it up Joseph. Oh, and there is no such thing as a "lowly little customer".


Steve Hendrix

 

[PeterL]

+1, Well said Guy, my expectations as well.

Cheers, -Peter

 

[tashley]

I guess we all have to make our decisions based on personal criteria and perceptions but from where I stand, tethered live view has been of such limited use as to be almost useless. It seemed more like a box-ticking exercise. So if the new backs are to have it, for me personally to want to buy it it's going to have to:

* work in sunlight
* have a fast enough frame rate to allow accurate framing of a view AND
* allow it to accurately reflect changes in focus when movements and focus are being iterated. I can't tell whether 3fps will be enough for that without trying it, if indeed 3fps is the number
* be 100% zoomable
* be sufficiently free of weird effects for clear focus to be discerned

There was talk somewhere of the engineers having 'pulled something out of the hat' and hats off to them if they have pulled out a rabbit the size of my list above! But again, personally speaking, love the new screen though I do, I'd have to see the rabbit (or at least hear very reliable news of it) before opening the wallet...
:deadhorse:

 

[gazwas]

+1 well said.

After all its not as if the P+ backs suddenly became terrible overnight (well apart from their resale price)

 

[cmb_]

+1 well said.

After all its not as if the P+ backs suddenly became terrible overnight (well apart from their resale price)

Yes, you are correct, the LCDs on the P+ backs have been terrible for quite some time now!

 

[Terry]

I guess we all have to make our decisions based on personal criteria and perceptions but from where I stand, tethered live view has been of such limited use as to be almost useless. It seemed more like a box-ticking exercise. So if the new backs are to have it, for me personally to want to buy it it's going to have to:

* work in sunlight
* have a fast enough frame rate to allow accurate framing of a view AND
* allow it to accurately reflect changes in focus when movements and focus are being iterated. I can't tell whether 3fps will be enough for that without trying it, if indeed 3fps is the number
* be 100% zoomable
* be sufficiently free of weird effects for clear focus to be discerned

There was talk somewhere of the engineers having 'pulled something out of the hat' and hats off to them if they have pulled out a rabbit the size of my list above! But again, personally speaking, love the new screen though I do, I'd have to see the rabbit (or at least hear very reliable news of it) before opening the wallet...
:deadhorse:

If all worked as you wanted I would be ecstatic. I guess my expectation was to be able to use live view for framing and focus. I didn't really consider focus mask on the live view but on the image review. If focus masking worked on the live view that would be a bonus for me. I think it would be something like the focus peaking that is on some video cameras. Seems like focus masking at 3 frames per second on a 80mp image live view image is a lot of heavy lifting in terms of processing power. I definitely want the focus masking on the image review as well even if indeed it is in live view.

Tim, when you are shooting to stitch and are using movements I'm curious of your workflow. I'm much newer to using movements but i would have thought once you get your focus dialed in you are making the shifts and shooting frames and LCCs pretty quickly.

 

[tashley]

Hi Terry,

The production of LCC shots in a logical and consistent manner should be a simple logisitcal exercise but is full of gotchas. Firstly, you need to try to pare back the frames on the camera to only those you will use in the stitch, i.e. the frames for the image and the associated LCCs... and preferably you need to get into a flow of shooting the frame first, then the LCC (OR VICE VERSA!) so you always know, later on, which LCC matches which frame. Taking written or voice notes at the time helps but...

In reality what happens to mildly but not chronically disorganised me is one or more of the following:

* I end up with stray frames that were taken to establish framing or focus, and can't remember if they were test shots or final shots. They can screw up my attempts at establishing a sequence of files that I can reconstruct later
* I get the sequence wrong
* I am quite certain I will remember some exceptional event (a big change in light, scene content, etc) and the fact that it made me change my normal sequence. I forget it when it comes to processing.
* On several occasions, I have shot in the field with a laptop (either tethering or because I am travelling and do my processing on a laptop) and then later, transferring files to a desktop, the LCCs go astray.
* On at least one occasion, can't remember which upgrade, going to a new version of C1 seemed to lose most of my old LCC profiles and of course I had deleted the shots themselves. I now always keep all my LCC shots but for the various reasons above, reconstructing their relationship with the frames I shot for the image itself, especially a year later (!) can be tricky.
* Keeping written or voice notes is fine but in the chaos of life I sometimes (OK usually) can't locate these several months later and interpret them usefully.

So for me at least, LCC shooting is a royal pain, however simple it SHOULD be for a person of average intelligence!

BTW I don't know if you've ever used Live View on an existing Phase back but it is a pig, really. Even under studio modelling lights it is really hard not to blow the sensor out, the image is noisy, very slow refresh rates make it hard to respond to focus changes and the colours often seem to invert or posterise. I almost never use it, though for careful slow macro use it is just about better than nothing. Frankly, having read in the pre-sales literature that there was live view on my first Phase back, I was utterly horrified by the actuality until I realised that a real pro should have expected it!

;-)

 

[Terry]

Tim - two things I do

1. When in the field when I'm done framing etc. I fire off a shot of my hand. Then after the last frame shot, I fire off a another shot of my hand. A little trick that our fearless leader Guy taught me. Works like a charm and like you I used to get confused where the stitch series started and ended.

2. When in C1 I now rename the LCC when I initially go to process/use it. In the LCC name I use is LCC + the file number of the frame that it is associated with. That way once processed I can match up the correct file to the correct LCC.

No, I haven't shot tethered in the studio.





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