Hasselblad frustration vs Technical obsession

[johnnygoesdigital]

I admit that I was a little naive when starting my MFD experience. For years I shot with a Canon 1dsMKII and an analog Hasselblad. I decided to go with Hasselblad when transitioning to MFD, mostly because of name familiarity and a good reputation. My fascination with fine art landscapes compelled me to seek better resolution and aspect ratio, and MFD seemed a perfect match. After buying my H3D/31/II, the value dropped almost $4000 in less than 500 shutter clicks. It was replaced with H4D, only to see the price drop again as another model was released (h4D31) within months. I could go on and on about my frustration with Hasselblad's pricing structure and the insulting trade up offers from a reputable dealer in NYC.- and let's not get started on the closed system...But I also fell for marketing because I didn't realize how obsessed I would become with technical cameras (6x9) and the digital integration. But I thought it's okay, Hasselblad's brochure says you can mount a technical DB on a view camera! For my model H4D, there's a cute diagram of a DB and view camera that appear to be easy to integrate, heck they don't even show you the battery bank you'll need to power it...oops! Any DB that has micro-lenses is not recommended for technical use because certain obtuse lighting conditions can cause considerable color shifts. Why doesn't Hasselblad mention this? I'm not saying it's a bad product, just misleading.

Any advice on Phase One or Leaf's DB's would be appreciated as I'm selling my H gear for a 645DF. I like the idea of using a 645DF for most of my needs and then taking the DB off to go hike with an Alpha or say a Linhof or perhaps an Arca Swiss...to quench my obsession...for the moment.

 

[Paratom]

Color shifts yes but did you try how good you can correct those in post.
I only have Sinar experience and my back didnt have microlenses but still produces color shifts - however in the Sinar software you could correct those easily with white shading.

 

[ajoyroy]

I admit that I was a little naive when starting my MFD experience. For years I shot with a Canon 1dsMKII and an analog Hasselblad. I decided to go with Hasselblad when transitioning to MFD, mostly because of name familiarity and a good reputation. My fascination with fine art landscapes compelled me to seek better resolution and aspect ratio, and MFD seemed a perfect match. After buying my H3D/31/II, the value dropped almost $4000 in less than 500 shutter clicks. It was replaced with H4D, only to see the price drop again as another model was released (h4D31) within months. I could go on and on about my frustration with Hasselblad's pricing structure and the insulting trade up offers from a reputable dealer in NYC.- and let's not get started on the closed system...But I also fell for marketing because I didn't realize how obsessed I would become with technical cameras (6x9) and the digital integration. But I thought it's okay, Hasselblad's brochure says you can mount a technical DB on a view camera! For my model H4D, there's a cute diagram of a DB and view camera that appear to be easy to integrate, heck they don't even show you the battery bank you'll need to power it...oops! Any DB that has micro-lenses is not recommended for technical use because certain obtuse lighting conditions can cause considerable color shifts. Why doesn't Hasselblad mention this? I'm not saying it's a bad product, just misleading.

Any advice on Phase One or Leaf's DB's would be appreciated as I'm selling my H gear for a 645DF. I like the idea of using a 645DF for most of my needs and then taking the DB off to go hike with an Alpha or say a Linhof or perhaps an Arca Swiss...to quench my obsession...for the moment.

All new DB prices drop alarmingly, once a newer generation is announced, so if you think that Phase DB will retain its price better, please look up used DB prices on the net. From ROI point of view, I would always go for used DB.

In case you will use only Technical cameras, then Phase/Leaf are better proposition, else you can always use the Hasselblad DB on Technical camera, and retain all you lenses (which ultimately are a large investment).

Yes the DB with microlenses are not recommended with Technical cameras, but only if you use movements. In case you need long exposures, there is only one choice - P45+, as all current DB, whether Dalsa or Kodak have limits of 1-4 minutes. More info on Phase Backs http://www.captureintegration.com/phase-one/new-backs/

In case you still have your analog Hasselblad and lenses, you can try the CFV range of backs which come upto 50MP.

 

[tjv]

A little naive?

 

[David Grover / Phase One]

Johnny,

Any colour cast you may see can easily be corrected by Phocus.

I am sure when you bought your H3D, if you had been keen on technical cameras then, these things would have come up in discussion.

By your own admission you say you didn't realise that you would become interested in these kinds of cameras until later, so once again, maybe your dealer assumed you would not be interested?

The H3D31 will certainly go on your Alpha or Linhof, and to be honest, the cast issue may never come up.

David

 

[yaya]

Any advice on Phase One or Leaf's DB's would be appreciated as I'm selling my H gear for a 645DF. I like the idea of using a 645DF for most of my needs and then taking the DB off to go hike with an Alpha or say a Linhof or perhaps an Arca Swiss...to quench my obsession...for the moment.

I can only speak for Leaf. Our backs (all of them) work very well on view camera with a few unique features:

* Simple connectivity via a single pc sync cable
* External clip-on battery: allows for use of large cells and helps preventing heat build-up (there's also a DC-FW adapter that can be used with e.g. Quantum batteries)
* Rotating sensor in 10R and 12R models; sensor stays clean and safe, cables and menus all stay in one place
* AFi models also offer a tilt screen, very handy when shooting low and saves some neck ache when chimping
* Cooling fan helps when shooting fast or when shooting consecutive long exposures
* Grid tool (adjustable) for aligning verticals and horizontals
* Spot meter tool for accurate exposure
* Possibility to enter notes, copyrights and focal length into the metadata
* Flexible workflow: Leaf Capture, Capture One (both with good LCC tools)

Best of luck!

yair

 

[fotografz]

ANY DB with micro lenses can induce color shifts on a tech camera, and ANY proprietary software techniques can adjust for it ... it is not an exclusive Hasselblad trait ... neither are stiff penalties for changing your mind after only 500 shots.

Perhaps back up, slow down, and become more educated before dropping another boatload of cash on the next obsession?

 

[PeterA]

Johnny

the devil is in the details when it comes to shooting on a tech camera...

as indicated above every manufacturer has a software solution for caste issues which are directly related to both the focal length of your lens and the type of back you are using - one is about how light is actually 'falling' into those tiny little pixel pots (through the lens) and the other is about how the actual tiny little pixel pots are manufactured ( the nature of the buckets that catch the light )

there are advantages and disadvantages to different bucket designs ( pixel types if you like)

The second bit to clued up on is the fact that fitting the back ( film) to teh tech camera has its own issues depending on tech camera and back and adaptor - which may vary from each example of each component..

you need to make sure that the bits 'fit' well..

internet forums aren't the best place to find out about this stuff again - as indicated above go to a dealer who knows what they are talking abut - good luck with that..

or find a person who knows what they are doing and get them to show you what and how and why they do it the way they do..


the good news is that you don't need to fret too much - a bit of patience and learning how to use what you have will go a long way..

the bad news?

spending a lot of cashola will not guarantee you a good result - and the definition or benchmark of good - keeps getting higher and higher as you climb the curve and get some experience.

Each manufacturer has their strengths and weaknesses relative to each other - unless you are as pedantic as me - you wont bother buying and using and testing a back from each manufacturer over a few years to figure out what needs to be figured out - for you

the problem with the H sees backs is that they are designed to be powered by the H series camera..I use an imagebank to provide the power but there are good alternative power solutions..

every manufacturer HAS to have a spin on why their design is better than the other guys...

the best thing to do is find a knowledgeable dealer - good luck with that...
and test the stuff with their help..

every back you ever buy will halve in value as soon as you have bought it..just a fact of life and then halve again 12 months later..

Hasselblad isn't the best at looking after their clients investment - that is for sure.but the difference between the best and the worst isn't too big either.

Final note

you an buy a brand new tiny megapixel camera(33) like a Sinar 75 for 1/3rd the price of 2 years ago...or a nice used Leaf Aptus for same or a nice Phase One for same..and they all make great shots and they all have heir issues.

Pete

 

[Guy Mancuso]

Theme if MF do your homework. Howany times is this drilled into our conversations. Need to read these threads of the constant details that we talk about. Sorry Peter but this forum drills this home everyday. Along with a dealers help mistakes should not happen. IMHO

 

[thomas]

color shift is practically a non issue as the MFD softwares provide excellent tools to correct color shift.
so the issue with microlensed sensors is not color shift - it's vignetting in conjunction with movements.
on a microlensed sensor the edges don't go just dark... they go black. incorrectable.
maybe not an issue with longer lenses, but definitely with wide angles.

Phase One generally do not recommend to use a microlensed sensor on tech cameras (except of the P21+ due to it's large pixel pitch... but even with the P21+ they do not recommend to use very wide angle lenses).
Therefore the use of a P30+ or H3D31 on a tech camera will be very, very limited; especially with regard to landscapes. So I'm a bit surprised about David's comment.

 

[dougpeterson]

It is an important duty of the dealer to explain the advantages and disadvantages of each digital back when someone is looking to buy.

Take for instance our Phase One P+ Digital Backs page where we clearly explain the P30+ and P21+ are not recommended for tech/view camera use especially with movements (tilts/shifts).

Doug Peterson (e-mail Me)
__________________

Head of Technical Services, Capture Integration
Phase One Partner of the Year
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[Terry]

Before buying any lenses you also want to make sure they are well suited to the sensor you are using. There are lenses that are fine on some of the crop sensors that don't perform well on the big sensors. So, make sure you discuss with a dealer and do your reading on the subject.

 

[dougpeterson]

Johnny,

Any colour cast you may see can easily be corrected by Phocus.

[...]

The H3D31 will certainly go on your Alpha or Linhof, and to be honest, the cast issue may never come up.

David, can you please double check what you wrote to make sure there isn't a typo or other slip?

Doug Peterson (e-mail Me)
__________________

Head of Technical Services, Capture Integration
Phase One Partner of the Year
Leaf, Leica, Cambo, Arca Swiss, Canon, Apple, Profoto, Broncolor, Eizo & More

National: 877.217.9870 *| *Cell: 740.707.2183
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Buy Capture One 6 at 10% off

 

[lance_schad]

I could go on and on about my frustration with Hasselblad's pricing structure and the insulting trade up offers from a reputable dealer in NYC.- and let's not get started on the closed system...But I also fell for marketing because I didn't realize how obsessed I would become with technical cameras (6x9) and the digital integration.

Sorry that you have had this happen to you with your switch to MFD.

Sometimes the resellers hands are tied by the manufacturer because the trade up programs are run by them and does not allow for much pricing flexibility.

If you are in the NY area I can work on showing you how the Leaf and Phase One solutions work on a technical camera. We have a few different tech cams and the full line of backs at our demo facility.

This would be a very good way for you to be able to compare the solutions side by side and get an overview of Capture One at the same time.

Lance

 

[David Grover / Phase One]

David, can you please double check what you wrote to make sure there isn't a typo or other slip?

Thanks for keeping an eye out for me Dug. :lecture:

I have checked and I am happy.

If somebody was going to exclusively use one of our products on a tech camera then I would urge them away from the micro lensed type for obvious reasons.

If it is occasional use, then based on experience, I would not tell them it was impossible or that they couldn't handle any potential cast issues.

Keep up the good work.

 

[Don Libby]

I think my journey into using a technical camera is well documented here and on my blog but allow me to add a couple thoughts...

I used to shoot landscape images with a 1DsII before wanting to go to the next step - medium format. That step took me to a Mamiya AFDII and a P30+ which I used and was very pleased with until I got the bug for something better (among other items on my wish list was the ability to flat stitch and better lenses resolution). The bug lead me to a tech camera and a Cambo WRS. I wanted to keep the P30+ as I was still very pleased with it however my dealer educated me in the downfall of a back using micro-lenses. After further reviewing Phase's website I found there that they didn't and still don't recommend this particular back with a tech camera. I ended up trading the P30+ for a P45+ and have been using that ever since.

There's issues that one should be aware of when using a tech camera - mainly some color ****s that are easily corrected by shooting an LCC and using C1 Pro to correct the image.

I bought the WRS and P45+ in November 2008 and sold all Phase 645 and every Mamiya lens within 6 months. I shot this setup exclusively until last year when I add a Leica M9 as a companion camera.

I had no thoughts at all of going to a tech camera when I first moved to MF otherwise I would have thought long and hard about the P30+.

Painful experience and leads credence to the subtitle of this forum ... "Abandon Hope All Ye Who Enter Here".

Best of luck!

Don

 

[johnnygoesdigital]

David,
I was keen on technical cameras then, and was assured that these H4 DB's would be perfect for those applications. What I "said" was that I didn't realize how obsessed I would become as it relates to the digital integration. You also say that for "obvious reasons" one would not use an H4D DB on a tech camera. What's so obvious in the Hasselblad literature that suggests it can't be used in certain applications? Your contradiction that it can be used on Linhof, or Alpa, but not for obvious reasons, is confusing at best.

As an artist, it's my desire to control every aspect of an image, utilizing camera movements to control perspective, DOF, etc. Years ago, I won an Emmy Award, and that experience with motion pictures has stayed with me in photography, the more control one has with the equipment, the better to effect a desired result, so without going into the scientific nature of microns and pixels and there relationship to lateral outflow and quantum efficiency, I trusted the sales pitch...my bad!

Marc, after your extensive posts with the S2, I thought you would understand best. I only posted about the deceptive nature about Hasselblad's literature, and how it relates to my view camera desires. I didn't just return my H3D on a whim. I returned it because the first day I used it, it broke! The price drop of several thousand dollars was during my experience with the 2nd H3D, in just a month. You even commented on the frustrating nature of Hasselblad price structure then.

Messages indicating no lens attached, constant required re-starts, faulty shutter settings and indications, and that was just my first one... My second H4D came with much anticipation, but the viewfinder would not function, so off to Hasselblad again...new viewfinder, but no true focus, it seems they forgot to update the firmware...there bad. Now finally, I'll get to use my much ballyhooed H4D, after a few shutter clicks, a strange sound and mirror locked up! After a 5 hour drive to Hasselblad it seems a piece of solder had come apart and jammed the mechanism. Now while bracketing, if it only requires a few re-starts, I consider that a good day because the camera always has to be re-booted, firmware updates and all! Is this a trust issue based on 4 different faulty Hasselblad cameras in less than a year? You tell me. I don't want to just buy an S2 with several lenses and H4D/60's to compliment my Leica M9. I want a camera system to function as advertised and for the "obvious" reasons!

 

[cunim]

I have just spent a couple of days comparing the P65+/C1 with my H3D50/Phocus. About 95% of my shooting is on tech or view cameras. My comments relate entirely to my own use, and do not imply any quality judgements. I have the greatest respect for both platforms, and for both companies. Flame not.

I found that specific features of the P65 work better on my tech cameras, but the back has some really serious "gotchas". For example, C1's handling of my Rollei shutters is primitive. Changing the battery requires removing the back if you are on an AS monolith. Battery life with live view is short so that removal process happens a lot. A couple of days trial will reveal what matters to you and what doesn't.

Closed vs open" system is irrelevant to me. I prefer the "feel" of the Blad hardware and I love the HCD35-90. In terms of image quality, I found the Blad 50 multishot to be really impressive, so much so that 80MP is not of great interest. Mind, I have never actually tried the 80MP so that is not an informed opinion.

I will move to the IQ back. The worst issues are supposed to be addressed there (e..g. battery recharges from USB3!) and, if the promises are kept, the advantages are compelling to me. If I were shooting more with the integrated camera or if return on investment were a key issue, I don't think I would move.

 

[dougpeterson]

Changing the battery requires removing the back if you are on an AS monolith. Battery life with live view is short so that removal process happens a lot.

If you're using live view in the studio just run your FW cable through a powered firewire hub and run the back off FW power. We've got a FW400 hub and a FW800 hub that we've tested specifically with our Phase backs for this purpose. You'll never change another battery .

Running off battery power is only needed if the computer you're connected to a laptop or iMac where the FW power is just not consistent and strong enough to power the back.

Actually, it sounds like the best solution (without knowing all the details granted) might be an Aptus II 12. This would allow more elegant control of the Rollei shutter from Leaf Capture software, and give you all the file quality of an IQ180 but at a lower price. Granted in the field the LCD and feature set of the IQ would be a big advantage but in the studio you might like the Aptus II 12 best.

Doug Peterson (e-mail Me)
__________________

Head of Technical Services, Capture Integration
Phase One Partner of the Year
Leaf, Leica, Cambo, Arca Swiss, Canon, Apple, Profoto, Broncolor, Eizo & More

National: 877.217.9870 *| *Cell: 740.707.2183
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[johnnygoesdigital]

I understand that color shifts are a relatively easy software fix, but the movements are the key element for me. Image circles using 70mm don't allow much movement with a technical camera and depending on focal length, larger incident "light" angles can be produced with wider lenses at the image plane.

Also, the crop factor of the sensor on the H4D/40, adds to the very limited movements on some technical cameras and wide lenses. Try finding that in Hasselblad's literature!