PhaseOne P30+ vs Hasselblad H4D-31

[TTLKurtis]

I've had the 24 TS-E and sold it, I probably should have held onto it for architectural work though. That said the 14, 24 and 16-35 serve that purpose pretty well minus the T/S.

I'm shooting with 5D II, 14L, 24L, 35L, 50 1.4, 100 2.8 Macro, 200L, 300L, 16-35L, 70-200L. I'm really not unhappy with the quality I'm seeing now. I just really want to see how much better it can be.

 

[stewpid]

I had the TSE 24 mk1, and didn't rate it at all. Tried several copies (as I always do), couldn't handle the corner softness, the distortion or the CA. I had the 16-35 L mk 1 and rated it OK at f8 to 11 but sadly lacking outside that narrow range. Now have the 16-35 mk2 and don't find it much better. But my mk2 TSE's are phenomenal.

EDIT: whoops, sorry. Just realised this might be going too far off topic. And don't mean to offend any MFDB users - I'm one myself.

 

[TTLKurtis]

Yeah I'm not a big fan of the 16-35, but when I do use it it's always at f/8-f/11 anyways.

The 24L II is spectacular, as is the 14L II.

It's been a long time since I used the 24 TS-E II, but I remember thinking at the time how crazy sharp it was. (This was before I had the other wide primes though so not sure how it compares.)

 

[ondebanks]

Back to the original qu: "PhaseOne P30+ vs Hasselblad H4D-31"

They use the same Kodak microlensed sensor, so they should perform identically on noise at a given ISO...with one exception: long exposures. PhaseOne optimised their Kodak-sensored P+ backs for exposures up to 1 hour, whereas AFAIK Hasselblad top out at the usual 1 minute.

Another (and for me, the biggest) "win" for the Mamiya/Phase platform is the sheer range of lenses you can use on it - thanks to two factors: its focal plane shutter, and having one of the shortest flange registration distances in medium format SLRs. With the Hasselblad H bodies, you are limited to H and V series (leaf-shutter only) lenses. With the Mamiya/Phase, you have:

* Mamiya/Phase 645AF lenses
* Mamiya 645 manual lenses (including exotic and fast ones like the 24/4 fisheye, 50/4 shift, 80/1.9, 140/4 soft focus, 200/2.8 APO, 300/2.8 APO, 500/8 mirror, and many more)
* Hasselblad V lenses (INCLUDING the F series like the 110/2, that the Hasselblad H bodies can't use)
* Bronica SQ lenses
* Pentax 67 lenses (attractive long, fast teles like the 400/4 EDIF)
* Pentacon Six, Exakta 66 and Kiev 60 lenses (Schneider, Carl Zeiss Jena, Hartblei, Arsat fisheye, etc.)

The point about the lenses is that the range is huge, the speeds fast, the cost low, and the niches are all filled. You cannot say the same about your options with the Hasselblad. Of course that may not matter to you, if your work only requires a limited setup like a 3-lens wide-normal-short tele kit.

 

[fotografz]

Back to the original qu: "PhaseOne P30+ vs Hasselblad H4D-31"

They use the same Kodak microlensed sensor, so they should perform identically on noise at a given ISO...with one exception: long exposures. PhaseOne optimised their Kodak-sensored P+ backs for exposures up to 1 hour, whereas AFAIK Hasselblad top out at the usual 1 minute.

Another (and for me, the biggest) "win" for the Mamiya/Phase platform is the sheer range of lenses you can use on it - thanks to two factors: its focal plane shutter, and having one of the shortest flange registration distances in medium format SLRs. With the Hasselblad H bodies, you are limited to H and V series (leaf-shutter only) lenses. With the Mamiya/Phase, you have:

* Mamiya/Phase 645AF lenses
* Mamiya 645 manual lenses (including exotic and fast ones like the 24/4 fisheye, 50/4 shift, 80/1.9, 140/4 soft focus, 200/2.8 APO, 300/2.8 APO, 500/8 mirror, and many more)
* Hasselblad V lenses (INCLUDING the F series like the 110/2, that the Hasselblad H bodies can't use)
* Bronica SQ lenses
* Pentax 67 lenses (attractive long, fast teles like the 400/4 EDIF)
* Pentacon Six, Exakta 66 and Kiev 60 lenses (Schneider, Carl Zeiss Jena, Hartblei, Arsat fisheye, etc.)

The point about the lenses is that the range is huge, the speeds fast, the cost low, and the niches are all filled. You cannot say the same about your options with the Hasselblad. Of course that may not matter to you, if your work only requires a limited setup like a 3-lens wide-normal-short tele kit.

The P30+ back does 1 hour exposures? If so does it also require the additional 1 hour black frame exposure = 2 hours?

FYI, there are 11 HC lenses in the H system not 3 as slyly implied ... from 28mm to 300mm, and a HC 1.7X, HTS/TS. Plus as mentioned, virtually ALL Zeiss V LS lenses can be used with high speed sync via the CF Adapter which Phase can't do ... unless you only require leaf shutter applications limited to 3 lenses kit with no 28mm wide angle, no zooms like the 35-90 or 50-110, and no long lenses like the 210, and 300 ... nor any of the excellent Zeiss V LS lenses

As always, depends on what is important to each photographer. Old glass that's questionable with today's sensors and requires stop down metering and shooting, or a modern fully coupled system (including the Zeiss V optics) with an excellent range of focal lengths?

And then one is stuck using the Mamiya camera ... Or alternatively, some outdated/discontinued dead end camera system.


-Marc

 

[dougpeterson]

The P30+ back does 1 hour exposures? If so does it also require the additional 1 hour black frame exposure = 2 hours?

Yes and Yes.

The spec on all P+ series backs is one hour at 63F / 17C. Though to be fair I would tell you if you plan on exceeding 20-30 minutes on a regular basis that you want to go with a 45+ as it's the best back in the world for long exposures. However I've personally done a 32 minute exposure with a P30+ and it looked darn good. Bare in mind the base ISO of the 30+ is 100 whereas the base ISO of the 45+ is 50, so you do gain a free stop of sensitivity during your long exposure.

All Phase backs require the additional black frame exposure. Whatever length of time you're shooting for the back will expose that amount of time after the shutter closes to evaluate the quantity and type of noise on the sensor. Major pain in the butt, but it's a key component in the technology that allows Phase to expose 15 times longer than any other back.

Anyone planning to shoot more than 30 seconds on any digital back should really insist that they have the chance to actually shoot such an image on the system they intend to buy. Specs are one thing, but the quality of shadow transitions, fine detail rendition, texture rendition, color fidelity, color transitions, hot pixels, and file flexibility all vary dramatically between various back makes/models past 30 seconds. I've seen backs spec'd at 30 seconds that I wouldn't personally shoot over 10 seconds and I've seen back's spec'd at 30 seconds that I wouldn't hesitate to shoot at 30 seconds if needed.

Software and firmware also plays a big role. When the 65+ was first released I found the 60 second spec to be a good bit "optimistic" to put it nicely. A few months later after several software and firmware updates I tested again and found I was much happier with that spec.

Doug Peterson (e-mail Me)
__________________

Head of Technical Services, Capture Integration
Phase One Partner of the Year
Leaf, Leica, Cambo, Arca Swiss, Canon, Apple, Profoto, Broncolor, Eizo & More

National: 877.217.9870 *| *Cell: 740.707.2183
Newsletter | RSS Feed
Buy Capture One 6 at 10% off

 

[Guy Mancuso]

Love examples here is a P40+ Dalsa at 35 seconds ISO 50. No issues

Need longer than P30+ at 30 minutes was very good from past experience and P45+ at one hour was great also.

 

[Guy Mancuso]

Here is a P30+ at 35 minutes which I think 35minutes is the break point of the P30+. ISO 100 here

 

[Steve Hendrix]

Back to the original qu: "PhaseOne P30+ vs Hasselblad H4D-31"

They use the same Kodak microlensed sensor, so they should perform identically on noise at a given ISO...with one exception: long exposures. PhaseOne optimised their Kodak-sensored P+ backs for exposures up to 1 hour, whereas AFAIK Hasselblad top out at the usual 1 minute.

Another (and for me, the biggest) "win" for the Mamiya/Phase platform is the sheer range of lenses you can use on it - thanks to two factors: its focal plane shutter, and having one of the shortest flange registration distances in medium format SLRs. With the Hasselblad H bodies, you are limited to H and V series (leaf-shutter only) lenses. With the Mamiya/Phase, you have:

* Mamiya/Phase 645AF lenses
* Mamiya 645 manual lenses (including exotic and fast ones like the 24/4 fisheye, 50/4 shift, 80/1.9, 140/4 soft focus, 200/2.8 APO, 300/2.8 APO, 500/8 mirror, and many more)
* Hasselblad V lenses (INCLUDING the F series like the 110/2, that the Hasselblad H bodies can't use)
* Bronica SQ lenses
* Pentax 67 lenses (attractive long, fast teles like the 400/4 EDIF)
* Pentacon Six, Exakta 66 and Kiev 60 lenses (Schneider, Carl Zeiss Jena, Hartblei, Arsat fisheye, etc.)

The point about the lenses is that the range is huge, the speeds fast, the cost low, and the niches are all filled. You cannot say the same about your options with the Hasselblad. Of course that may not matter to you, if your work only requires a limited setup like a 3-lens wide-normal-short tele kit.

My goodness, you left out the new Schneider lenses, like the 120mm Tilt/Shift, and the 55mm, 80mm, 110mm, 150mm Lea Shutter lenses.


And the fact that Schneider will be producing lenses for Phase One cameras for a long time. Pretty clear that long term, Hasselblad users will have access to Hasselblad H lenses and Phase users will have access to Schneider lenses. Take your pick.


Steve Hendrix

 

[dougpeterson]

Here is a P30+ at 35 minutes which I think 35minutes is the break point of the P30+. ISO 100 here

I'd love to see this processed in 6.1.1 with color noise reduction set to 70, luminance noise reduction at 5 or 10 and single pixel noise reduction turned up to taste.

There is a new color noise reduction algorithm that will aid in the color "wonkiness" in the left of the frame.

Doug Peterson (e-mail Me)
__________________

Head of Technical Services, Capture Integration
Phase One Partner of the Year
Leaf, Leica, Cambo, Arca Swiss, Canon, Apple, Profoto, Broncolor, Eizo & More

National: 877.217.9870 *| *Cell: 740.707.2183
Newsletter | RSS Feed
Buy Capture One 6 at 10% off

 

[Guy Mancuso]

Raw is missing. Dang

 

[yaya]

My goodness, you left out the new Schneider lenses, like the 120mm Tilt/Shift, and the 55mm, 80mm, 110mm, 150mm Lea Shutter lenses.


And the fact that Schneider will be producing lenses for Phase One cameras for a long time. Pretty clear that long term, Hasselblad users will have access to Hasselblad H lenses and Phase users will have access to Schneider lenses. Take your pick.


Steve Hendrix

Yesterday I saw a Schneider enlarger lens mounted on a Zork tilt/ shift adapters (the lens's mount had a tilt head built into it) with a set of extension tubes about 20cm long, working on a 645DF...

It is used for some extreme macro work by a known research institute so not just for fun...

 

[P. Chong]

I know! 1376 images with 45% left? :bugeyes:
I'm shooting to a card. Usually I review the images just to check composition, but I don't think I use the LCD that much. My photo sessions are about 3-4 hours for 400-600 exposures.

I just reset the PMU on battery to see if there's an improvement, I'm going right now to a photo session and I'll post how it went...

I am piqued too...usually when I get to this stage, its about 1/10th the number of those images...same either tethered or on CF. Am keen to find out more.

 

[ondebanks]

The P30+ back does 1 hour exposures? If so does it also require the additional 1 hour black frame exposure = 2 hours?

FYI, there are 11 HC lenses in the H system not 3 as slyly implied ... from 28mm to 300mm, and a HC 1.7X, HTS/TS. Plus as mentioned, virtually ALL Zeiss V LS lenses can be used with high speed sync via the CF Adapter which Phase can't do ... unless you only require leaf shutter applications limited to 3 lenses kit with no 28mm wide angle, no zooms like the 35-90 or 50-110, and no long lenses like the 210, and 300 ... nor any of the excellent Zeiss V LS lenses

As always, depends on what is important to each photographer. Old glass that's questionable with today's sensors and requires stop down metering and shooting, or a modern fully coupled system (including the Zeiss V optics) with an excellent range of focal lengths?

And then one is stuck using the Mamiya camera ... Or alternatively, some outdated/discontinued dead end camera system.


-Marc

Hey Marc,

6 days ago, you posted in another thread here:

If other users, reps, or companies want to put their spin on this-verses-that to bolster their decisions, offerings, or whatever ... let the competition answer them ... I'm done. My loyalty and energy is better focused on my work, clients and earning a living for my family.

So the "new you" lasted a whole 5 days, eh? :ROTFL:

Believe me, I understand! I think that we all have a compulsion to defend our preferred brands and proselytize our choices.

Anyway: I wasn't being sly, and certainly did not mean that the H system only has 3 lenses. What I meant was that the modern Hasselblad H system is ideal for the equivalent of the traditional Hasselblad V shooter with the "standard 3 lens kit" of 50mm Distagon, 80mm Planar and 150mm Sonnar lenses. Such a photographer had no need for the rarer, more exotic, or plain unavailable lenses like superfast telephotos, or the ability to shoot with arbitrary optical devices like telescopes and enlarging lenses.

This is how I see the H system. Apart from the cost, I would feel too constrained by its range of optics, even including the V system LS lenses.

And if the Mamiya/PhaseOne AF bodies had detachable finders like the H bodies, I'd be even happier.

Ray

 

[ondebanks]

My goodness, you left out the new Schneider lenses, like the 120mm Tilt/Shift, and the 55mm, 80mm, 110mm, 150mm Lea Shutter lenses.



Steve Hendrix

Actually Steve, I didn't forget them. They were implicit in my first category, Mamiya/PhaseOne 645AF lenses. They are just another few examples of lenses with the M645 bayonet, AF and electronic aperture control, and a PhaseOne logo on the front. Not a separate category in their own right, according to the Butler classification!

 

[Guy Mancuso]

Actually I consider the LS lenses in another category for the Mamiya AFD mount. Hot stuff or freaking awesome. Take your pick. LOL

Reality is they render much different than the Phase/Mamiya labels of the 150D and such.

I really like the way the Schneiders are rendering with a smooth look to them. Hard to describe here in words.

 

[Steve Hendrix]

Actually Steve, I didn't forget them. They were implicit in my first category, Mamiya/PhaseOne 645AF lenses. They are just another few examples of lenses with the M645 bayonet, AF and electronic aperture control, and a PhaseOne logo on the front. Not a separate category in their own right, according to the Butler classification!

Yes, that is what I figured. Just making it a bit more clear to everyone. And actually the Schneider Lenses are branded Schneider.

*Mamiya AF Lenses (Focal Plane Shutter)

*Phase One D AF Lenses (updated or completely new versions of the Mamiya AF Focal Plane Shutter Lenses)

*Schneider LS Lenses (Schneider designed and measured Leaf Shutter lenses

Mainly, I pointed out and emphasized Schneider because this isn't just a "few Leaf Shutter Lenses". This is a formalized, long term agreement (in excess of 10 years, I believe) between Phase One, Mamiya and Schneider, for Schneider to produce lenses for Phase One/Mamiya camera systems.

I feel that is one of the most important aspects of the whole Phase One/Mamiya lens situation. And something else to consider: Yes, it is true that Phase One/Mamiya only has 4 Leaf Shutter lenses currently. But they have been on a pace of adding an average of 3 lenses every year for the past several years. Phase One has the financial position to be able to produce lots of new lenses (and cameras). That is not to be underestimated.

If I look at what Phase One has accomplished the past three years in the economic climate at the time, I would feel very confident about choosing them to invest in when it comes to future development. And the present doesn't look too bad, either.


Steve Hendrix

 

[fotografz]

Hey Marc,

6 days ago, you posted in another thread here:

If other users, reps, or companies want to put their spin on this-verses-that to bolster their decisions, offerings, or whatever ... let the competition answer them ... I'm done. My loyalty and energy is better focused on my work, clients and earning a living for my family.

So the "new you" lasted a whole 5 days, eh? :ROTFL:

Believe me, I understand! I think that we all have a compulsion to defend our preferred brands and proselytize our choices.

Anyway: I wasn't being sly, and certainly did not mean that the H system only has 3 lenses. What I meant was that the modern Hasselblad H system is ideal for the equivalent of the traditional Hasselblad V shooter with the "standard 3 lens kit" of 50mm Distagon, 80mm Planar and 150mm Sonnar lenses. Such a photographer had no need for the rarer, more exotic, or plain unavailable lenses like superfast telephotos, or the ability to shoot with arbitrary optical devices like telescopes and enlarging lenses.

This is how I see the H system. Apart from the cost, I would feel too constrained by its range of optics, even including the V system LS lenses.

And if the Mamiya/PhaseOne AF bodies had detachable finders like the H bodies, I'd be even happier.

Ray

Actually Ray that "hiatus" was in context to the "literature accuracy" debate and subsequent spin by the P1 sellers and users here. Let Hasselblad answer those type questions ... it's their business not mine and I can't do anything about it. But thanks for condescending remarks anyway :thumbup:

I had all that stuff that is so important to you ... along with the cameras actually built for them to fully work ... 203FE for all the Zeiss V lenses fully coupled ... plus all of them worked on my Contax 645 along with enlarger lenses and T/S bellows etc. etc. ... if I wanted that stuff now I'd bolt them onto the S2 ... no thanks, been there, done that, and done that, and done that. :ROTFL:

IMO, this forum has gotten really polarized ... and its reputation of being a place for Phase One only is quickly spreading ... I don't think that was the original intent of the MFD forum ... reminds me a lot of when Guy and I were defending the Leica DMR on another site ... didn't matter what you said or what your opinion was, or the results you got ... it was wrong and beaten to death because it wasn't following the majority party line. In fact, if I recall correctly, that was at least in part the catalyst for starting this forum. Hmmmm.



-Marc

 

[Guy Mancuso]

Marc seriously I don't think it is polarized at all. If it is than it is totally Hassys fault. No reps here to represent them except David . No dealers that join in and asked several times directly for gear for Jack and I to review which has fallen on deaf ears. Only members that shoot them. You have your opinion which I respect but we have tried and not sure what else we can do to have more representation from Hassy . Frankly there loss which is a real shame since this is a public forum and they are more than welcome. I know Jack and I stay away even though we both shoot Phase from going over the top. Honestly We do not care what name they shoot as long as they are getting what they paid for, what is expected in the system and are happy with there choices. We have NEVER said anything out if turn on any OEM and never will. So that comment is a little out of text and not the whole truth.

But i will say this in all honesty I read every thread in MF and with the announcement of the new IQ backs I personally have seen a change in attitude from Hassy owners. Not bad or good but maybe a little upset at least that is what I personally am seeing. Maybe it is my imagination or maybe it isn't but the word polarized on this forum has maybe come up in recent times. Frankly we want the forum to be a open book so whatever you may believe does not come from the owners and this is my last word on the subject.

 

[fotografz]

Marc seriously I don't think it is polarized at all. If it is than it is totally Hassys fault. No reps here to represent them except David . No dealers that join in and asked several times directly for gear for Jack and I to review which has fallen on deaf ears. Only members that shoot them. You have your opinion which I respect but we have tried and not sure what else we can do to have more representation from Hassy . Frankly there loss which is a real shame since this is a public forum and they are more than welcome. I know Jack and I stay away even though we both shoot Phase from going over the top. Honestly We do not care what name they shoot as long as they are getting what they paid for, what is expected in the system and are happy with there choices. We have NEVER said anything out if turn on any OEM and never will. So that comment is a little out of text and not the whole truth.

But i will say this in all honesty I read every thread in MF and with the announcement of the new IQ backs I personally have seen a change in attitude from Hassy owners. Not bad or good but maybe a little upset at least that is what I personally am seeing. Maybe it is my imagination or maybe it isn't but the word polarized on this forum has maybe come up in recent times. Frankly we want the forum to be a open book so whatever you may believe does not come from the owners and this is my last word on the subject.

I'll take this off line Guy. We've been internet pals for a long time, and a private conversation may be more appropriate ... if you can spare a moment or two.

-Marc