PhaseOne P30+ vs Hasselblad H4D-31

[TTLKurtis]

I know these types of threads are a little taboo... I've been reading these forums for a while trying to glean whatever knowledge I could, but I'm having a hard time figuring out the important differences between these systems and figuring out what would be better for me. I also don't have any local dealers, so that isn't very helpful. The nearest dealer is in Dallas (4hrs away) to check out some PhaseOne gear, but nobody anywhere near here sells Hasselblad, for the sake of comparison.

In terms of the things I shoot... architectural, environmental portraits, family portraits, weddings are the bulk of my work. MFDB is clearly not going to be for -everything- as the flexibility of my Canon system is important to me (at this point anyways) during weddings, for example.

So here's some of what I -do- know:

Hasselblad lenses all have leaf-shutters: high-speed sync = win.
Ergonomics/weight it looks like PhaseOne = win.

That's pretty much the extent of my knowledge... they both use microlenses I think, but I'm not interested in large-format tech cameras and don't foresee myself getting into that...

So what are some other practical things I should maybe be aware of? Battery life? Types of batteries? Comparison of viewfinder size/brightness? Design of the camera itself (Hasselblad vs Phase/Mamiya vs Contax?)...?

Furthermore... anyone near San Antonio want to let me play with their gear? Lunch on me, haha.

 

[Valentin]

Some differences that I found during my search:

1. Hassy viewfinder is the best hands down. You have to look through one to see that.
2. Leaf shutter - both systems have leaf shutter (aka highs speed sync). With the Phase/Mamiya you need the LS lenses from Schneider
3. Ergonomics is a personal thing so you have to hold both of them and see which one you like.

One thing I didn't like about the H system was that many settings were changed via menu system. I like the old way: knobs.

The newer H bodies only accepts digital backs from Hassy (H2 accepts other manufacturers as well; V system as well).

You can't go wrong with either of them. You just need to find one to try out and see which one you like better.

 

[aldo]

I tried and bought my hasselblad gear from www.houseofvictor.com It's in Dallas, really nice guy John Shipes, Phone # 214.741.2624. But I just don't know why the webpage redirects you to http://hotwire-digital.com/.

Anyway, I can tell you why I choose hasselblad.

1. Leaf shutter on all lenses lineup. Phase one right now "only" have 3 lenses 55mm 2.8, 80mm 2.8 and the 110mm 2.8, but from what I've heard they are pretty good)

* The PhaseOne 645 DF camera also have a focal plane shutter that tops on 1/4000s, the Hasselblad H1, H2, H3D, H4D doesn't have a focal plane shutter at all.
* Phase One LS lenses can sync up to 1/1600s only with the p40+ and p65+ backs.

2. The 100mm f/2.2, that lens is a gem for portraits.

3. Only 1 battery for the system (Battery grip). With phase one you need batteries for the camera and for the back.

4. The HTS 1.5 tilt and shift adapter. Currently I don't have it, but I'm planning to get it. You can do panos really easy and be creative with the perspective and focus plane (I shoot a lot of portraits).

5. Ergonomics. Something you should try first.

6. True focus system. It's an awesome feature, here's a good explanation.

7. The 35-90 4-5.6 lens, it's a terrific lens, but really expensive ($7,000) That I got free in a promotion when I bought the H4D-40.

8. Hasselblad mirror delay option. I'm not shure if phase one DF camera has it, but it works great to reduce vibration.


Things I don't like of the hasselblad:

- The battery "only" last about 450 shots (I use 1 1/2 in a complete photoshot). With the Nikon D700 I would get around 600-700. Actually 450 shots are pretty good . Well I don't like that they fully charge in about 8-9 hours and cost $250 a piece.
- Fast "normal" 50mm lens... sometimes I need one with at least a f/2.8... (weddings of other stuff)
- Phocus Software. I'm lukewarm about it. You can get the best of your images with Phocus, and it works great, but It's really slow for checking focus, sorting and rating. When you have more than 300 images on a folder It really starts to get slow (I have a Mac Pro with 3.33 GhHz 6-core, 24 GB ram and with a SSD)... now I just export JPEGS to catalog them in Lightroom and then adjust the bests in Phocus.

What I would like to have from phase one:

- Focal plane shutter, sometimes you JUST NEED IT (Rarely, but it comes handy).
- The new IQ backs looks awesome, the LCD, the menus, instant preview, etc etc.


What I miss from my Nikon D700:

- ISO 200. Hasselbald ISO 200 looks great but if you need the cleanest file possible its with 100.
- Vibration. With MFD to shoot hand-held anything less than 2.5x the reciprocal of the focal length its almost impossible to get a vibration free image.

So adding ISO 100 (or ISO 50 in some cases) + the 2.5x + MFD has shallower depth of field + MFD doesn't have "prime" 1.2 or 1.4 lenses... it becomes harder to shoot hand-held images. With the 100mm lens I use to shoot always with a monopod and nothing under 1/250s to get comfortable.


Good luck! and please try them both before making a decision!

 

[arashm]

Aldo
I'm not sure why some people get such a few number of shots per battery charge.
are you shooting tethered or to card?
check the image out to see my confusion.
am

 

[fotografz]

It is very difficult to outline all of the subtile differences between various makes of MFD cameras/digital backs without living with a system for some time. I suppose that is the value of a forum like this, populated with so many highly experienced users of MFD.

All one can do is share their reasons for choice, and allow you to see which better matches up to your requirements ... then do more homework and demo the products.

I tried and owned various different systems, and can safely say none of them meet every requirement you or I could list. I selected, and have been comfortable with, the Hasselblad H system for these reasons:

It is a total Leaf Shutter system: the advantage of high speed sync with all eleven lenses from 28mm to 300mm including two outstanding zooms outweighs the top shutter speed of 1/800th disadvantage for my applications. In actual practice, I rarely run up against the 1/800th stopping point, and when I do I simply use a high quality MC ND filter.

The H system offers various interchangeable viewfinders, and I occasionally use the H waist-level finder for lower shots, or a different perspective. This finder is not metered nor is it really useable in portrait mode.

The current H system allows use of the HTS/1.5 for front standard Tilt-Shift work. I use it for table top photography to increase depth-of-field, and on location to defocus certain parts of a portrait or vista, or to do shift work and post processing stitching for panoramics. 28mm through 100mm prime lenses can be used ... effectively providing you with five T/S lens options. The 1.5 part of the name means it adds a 1.5X magnification factor, so a 28mm is effectively a 40mm ... which is still pretty wide on a MFD camera. The HTS/1.5 is small, easy to take with and use ... and is electronically integrated into the software lens correction systems in the Phocus software. It can be difficult to focus when extreme T/S are applied, just like most any T/S kit.

The combination of leaf shutters, and the user selected millisecond mirror-delay option, of the H system make hand-holding more viable than without.

I like the ergonomics of the H camera because all the important controls are buttons on the grip or viewfinder which, with a little practice, can be activated without taking your eye from the viewfinder ... and many are visible in the viewfinder. Many key functions can be assigned to a user selected button for instant access without scrolling a menu. I have Manual WB assigned to a front grip button that when pressed automatically fires a WB shot and sets the proper WB ... no menus, scrolling, or fuss ... just press and done.

With the H4 camera came a major leap forward in AF technology called True Focus/APL (Absolute Position Lock). MF photography is notorious for very shallow DOF, so especially when shooting closer subjects off-center it can be very difficult to keep the subject in focus when you recompose. TF/APL corrects that issue ... I can swiftly focus with TF, then recompose and place the subject at the very edge of the frame, and the point of focus will stay perfectly in focus ... even when shooting at minimum focus range with a f/2.2 aperture which has wafer thin depth-of-field. For off center subjects, I've found it faster and more accurate then even the best 35mm DSLRs.

There are other subtile differences, but the above are why I prefer the Hasselblad for much of my work.

-Marc

 

[aldo]

Aldo
I'm not sure why some people get such a few number of shots per battery charge.
are you shooting tethered or to card?
check the image out to see my confusion.
am

I know! 1376 images with 45% left? :bugeyes:
I'm shooting to a card. Usually I review the images just to check composition, but I don't think I use the LCD that much. My photo sessions are about 3-4 hours for 400-600 exposures.

I just reset the PMU on battery to see if there's an improvement, I'm going right now to a photo session and I'll post how it went...

 

[TTLKurtis]

Thanks for the feedback so far guys. Anyone who prefers PhaseOne want to chime in with some specific reasons / experience compared to Hassy?

(I've talked to Hassy and they'll send me a demo if I want for a few days... almost certainly going to take them up on that.)

One question also re the Hassy system... the lenses are all leaf-shutter, syncing with flash up to 1/800 no problemo... but 1/800 is also their absolute highest shutter speed right? (thus the advantage of focal plane shutters?) It's sort of a double-edged sword... on the one hand, I'm basically gaining two stops of sun-killing power with my Profoto strobes. On the other hand, if I'm shooting available light I might have to use ND filters (if I don't want to shoot at f/11) which make the system a bit more annoying to use in addition to the extra bulk.

Oh and I've heard people talking about shutter lag... that sounds like a huge step back from DSLRs... how bad is this 'shutter lag' really? We're not talking like point-n-shoot shutter lag I assume (please tell me this assumption is not wrong lol), but the idea of having any noticeable shutter lag on a $10k+ camera is strange to me.

 

[yaya]

As others mentioned, nothing will give you more info than a hands-on demo of both systems.
For example if you shoot mostly handheld then the ergonomics will be a top priority, foe example if your 400 image session is all verticals, will you be comfortable hand holding the camera vertically for 3-4 hrs?

If a fast sync speed is crucial for you then you should know that the Phase One/ Mamiya 645DF, if used with one of the LS lenses (55mm, 80mm, 110mm and soon 150mm) can reach 1/1,600, providing that the digital back is a P40+, P65+ or one of the Leaf Aptus-II backs (5, 6, 7, 8, 10 or 12). And at the same time, with the same lens you can get 1/4,000 using the focal-plane shutter.

Shutter lag...again you'll have to try it for yourself to get a feel of is this real or not.

Good luck!

Yair

PS In Texas the same guy can show you both Leaf and Phase: Link

 

[fotografz]

Thanks for the feedback so far guys. Anyone who prefers PhaseOne want to chime in with some specific reasons / experience compared to Hassy?

(I've talked to Hassy and they'll send me a demo if I want for a few days... almost certainly going to take them up on that.)

One question also re the Hassy system... the lenses are all leaf-shutter, syncing with flash up to 1/800 no problemo... but 1/800 is also their absolute highest shutter speed right? (thus the advantage of focal plane shutters?) It's sort of a double-edged sword... on the one hand, I'm basically gaining two stops of sun-killing power with my Profoto strobes. On the other hand, if I'm shooting available light I might have to use ND filters (if I don't want to shoot at f/11) which make the system a bit more annoying to use in addition to the extra bulk.

Oh and I've heard people talking about shutter lag... that sounds like a huge step back from DSLRs... how bad is this 'shutter lag' really? We're not talking like point-n-shoot shutter lag I assume (please tell me this assumption is not wrong lol), but the idea of having any noticeable shutter lag on a $10k+ camera is strange to me.

RE: Shutter lag. First time I've heard of this. Many of these cameras are used to shoot high-end fashion ... I doubt they would be if they had shutter lag. I use MFD to shoot candid wedding and personal work. None of them shoot @ 10FPS, and the AF isn't as fast as pro 35mm DSLRs if that is what you mean.

RE: 1/800th top shutter speed with leaf-shutter and bright available light. You are correct. Same for the ubiquitous traditional leaf shutter cameras like the Hassey V (1/500tth), Rollie (1/500th up to 1/1000th with certain lenses) and Mamiya RZ (1/400th). Keep in mind that the available ISO of most backs is 50 and most MF lenses max aperture is higher than 35mm DSLR lenses, and the DOF is much shallower with MFD.

However, there conceivably can be instances that can happen where one would be shooting at f/2.2 or 2.8 in extremely bright light @ ISO 50 and run out of shutter speed. Most MFD lenses in any given system are usually a maximum of two filter sizes ... and I personally carry Polarizers when shooting in that kind of light anyway ... which act as NDs.

If you do not project use of a digital back on a technical camera and are not in a rush to build your system, you may be a candidate for the Leica S2. It is designed like a 35mm DSLR in terms of ergonomics and handling, and can shoot either focal plane shutter or Leaf shutter with all focal lengths. Trouble is Leica is turtle slow to market with the Leaf shutter equipped lenses ... so they allow you to buy the regular version and pay the difference when the Leaf Shutter versions become available. Not a choice for someone in a hurry. I also shoot a S2 and prefer it over any modular MFD for most of my work now ... and will upgrade the lenses to leaf shutter when available.

Again, nothing written can substitute for a hands-on experience in the types of situations you typically face ... and keep in mind that you will not become proficient with any of these systems or their software over-night.

-Marc

 

[Googaliser]

Oh and I've heard people talking about shutter lag... that sounds like a huge step back from DSLRs... how bad is this 'shutter lag' really? We're not talking like point-n-shoot shutter lag I assume (please tell me this assumption is not wrong lol), but the idea of having any noticeable shutter lag on a $10k+ camera is strange to me.

Hi - I think wires are crossed. This is probably the mirror delay that Marc describes. Its an elective shutter lag (set in milliseconds) that is often desirable and totally customizable. Helps reduce vibration induced movement. This was a wonderful feature on my H3D - and I am hoping that my 645DF due any day will have the same. With no delay dialed-in, the H3D releases felt instantaneous to me at least

M

 

[Valentin]

....
If a fast sync speed is crucial for you then you should know that the Phase One/ Mamiya 645DF, if used with one of the LS lenses (55mm, 80mm, 110mm and soon 150mm) can reach 1/1,600, providing that the digital back is a P40+, P65+ or one of the Leaf Aptus-II backs (5, 6, 7, 8, 10 or 12).....

Yair

From reading the datasheet, it seems that other backs (like P30+) can achieve 1/800 flash sync speed. While not 1/1600, it is comparable with the Hassy system.

 

[Ben Rubinstein]

Hi, nice to see you here (I'm Beni over on FM). As Marc says, it's going to be rare that you will find yourself running out of shutter with backs that do a native iso 50 and are not that fast. Especially when you get less DOF and a far smoother focus roll off with MF than with 35mm so that you will not need such fast apertures anyway. Marc is a wedding shooter and one of the few who shoot weddings with a MFDB rig and he'd be the first I'd turn to if I was stupid enough to do wedding with a digital MF rig (would be stupid for me, my business ain't so great at the mo!).

That said, one day, one day, that georgous P30+ back will be in my hands, it's really good even at iso 1600, Guy had some raw files up here from the P30+ once upon a time and if you process the high iso ones in Capture One then you're in for a treat, couldn't believe how good the file was!

Most of all, in this day and age, I think that you have to ask yourself, what will a digital MF solution give you economically, it's a very slippery slope as witnessed by so many here, for weddings, unless you already have a system and know it well so why not, I'd say it would take a pair of big ones to make the step.

 

[TTLKurtis]

Hey Beni,

It is a slippery slope indeed lol. While I primarily post on the wedding boards on FM, I don't only shoot weddings. I think MF might work for me during weddings, but I would first become very comfortable shooting architectural work, environmental portraits, headshots, etc. with the gear before even THINKING about taking it there.

Economically it's not the smartest move, for sure... but if I can tell myself the quality is worth it for my own satisfaction if nothing else... lol

 

[TTLKurtis]

Oh... another question.

With my Canon system I can shoot wirelessly tethered. RAW in-camera, with small JPEGs to the tethered system.

Is WIRELESS tethering possible with MFDBs or is the only option to use a physical cable?

 

[Guy Mancuso]

Physical cable. If you need 1600 get the Phase. I really liked the P30 plus. See digital review section

 

[TTLKurtis]

Boo on physical cable... I thought that was the case but hoped differently. You would think someone would have developed something like the small wireless transmitters Canon has for the 1-series for a MFDB. Hm.

 

[Guy Mancuso]

Hopefully someday soon. Really just a matter of time but maybe only in new backs. Hard to say but things are changing for the better.

 

[Ben Rubinstein]

You could get the pentax 645D and use the wifi SD cards (I forget their name), with small jpgs it should work fast enough. No idea if the system can write jpg to one slot and RAW to the other though, should be able to.

 

[fotografz]

Hey Beni,

It is a slippery slope indeed lol. While I primarily post on the wedding boards on FM, I don't only shoot weddings. I think MF might work for me during weddings, but I would first become very comfortable shooting architectural work, environmental portraits, headshots, etc. with the gear before even THINKING about taking it there.

Economically it's not the smartest move, for sure... but if I can tell myself the quality is worth it for my own satisfaction if nothing else... lol

Absolutely ... would never purchase a MFD system for weddings alone. Nikon/Canon/Sony are more than enough. However, if you have other applications more suited to it, then why not also use it to upgrade certain wedding work? It is actually more useable at weddings than you'd first suspect. My MFD gear was bought and paid for via commercial work ... which has all but fallen off a cliff in the past few years ... and weddings aren't all that hot anymore either. So if starting out now, I wouldn't even bother with MFD except for personal work, and self-satisfaction. The slippery slope is because the IQ is so obviously better that it is very difficult to put the Genie back in the bottle :ROTFL:

-Marc

 

[stewpid]

My humble advice, think and test very carefully before going to MF. I did it a few years ago but I wouldn't do it in the present climate. I presently use Hasselblad with a few lenses but have also used Phase a lot - negligible difference in image quality, medium diffs in ease of use IMO.

BUT (big but, notice) I recently bought a Canon TSE 24 and a 17 (mk 2's) for a specific project and am bowled over by the quality it is possible to get out of my 5D2. The glass makes a bigger difference than I had realised, and I've been at this game a long long time. Try your Canon with the best glass you can get hold of (you may have it already) and compare both Hass and Phase without any preconceptions. See what you think.