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An Open Canvas

Nubi

New member
Hi, Guys.


I am new!


The reason I joined here is that I would like to get myself into the world of digital MF, and I have very much enjoyed reading many of the useful posts here.


I now shoot with APS-C, which in itself a competent set up for many different styles of photography, but for me it is becoming rather unsatisfactory very quickly. This seems to have accelerated once I bought myself an Epson 3880. I am wanting to print larger and larger, and I am becoming more and more discontent with IQ as I print larger.


I am an open canvas here in that I have not bought anything so far. So, I can be painted in most "proper" ways as far as getting the right dMF equipments and techniques are concerned. I was wondering if you guys would be nice enough to "mold" me into a dMF photographer that you call can be proud of!!

My budget is about $2,000.

Just kidding. I think initially I can put in about $15,000.

My 3 main interests photography are landscapes, portraitures, and architecture.


I figure I have not included enough info, but perhaps this may be a good start.


Many thanks in advance!




Nubi
 

Jack

Sr. Administrator
Staff member
My budget is about $2,000.

Just kidding. I think initially I can put in about $15,000.
That was good!

My 3 main interests photography are landscapes, portraitures, and architecture.
With that budget, I think you could pretty easily get into a nice Hasselblad CFV kit with three or four lenses, or could get into a Mamiya body and a handful of lenses with an older 22-30MP Leaf or Phase back. I don't think you can get as complete a Hassy H kit since the lenses are more expensive.
 

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
Yea 15k can get you a nice used P30+ or H31 with body and about 3 or 4 lenses. You have a realistic number there to work with. Or you can try and get a P40+ with body, lens and back or H 40 with body, lens and back which should be close to the 15k but will have to build more lenses later but these two are the latest from both OEM's.

Nice thing at 15k is you have some nice options
 

BradleyGibson

New member
For 15k you can look at any of the cameras, and a lower res new back or medium res (~40MP) used back, which is great.

From the living camera systems, I'd recommend taking a look at the Pentax 645D (weatherproof, many nature/landcape features), an
d the Hasselblad H2 (mature system), now that you can put your choice of back on it.

From the dead systems, I'd take a look at the Contax (cheap, many great Zeiss designs available, all with AF), and possibly a Hy6 (glass, support somewhat rare) or Hasselblad V (needs sync cables with most backs, no AF).

With the Hassy and Contax options, I'd recommend the Phase P45+. For the Rollei, the Leaf is the way to go.

And be sure to read Guy's thread on what folks have learned transitioning to MF digital. It's more different than it would appear--many jump in and leave a year later because of this, so knowing at the outset can help you to avoid disappointment.

Welcome!
 

Nubi

New member
Thank you very much to all of you.

You guys have answered many of the questions that I had, and some more to think about.

Here is one caveat that I didn't include; I currently shoot with Pentax K-7, with a crap load of lenses. I am not exactly a fanboy but I do love the set up and what Pentax seems to offer in general. So yes I have thought about 645D, and I have looked at 645D, and I have considered 645D, and you know I actually thought about buying 645D (currently out of stock at all "three" places), but I guess what I was asking was what else was available out there, which i only loosely knew.

Hassey vs. Mamiya is an interesting one for me. As I have thought about more and more about MF, I started cropping my pictures square, and guess what?? I love that format.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/nubimd/

But, what i don't know is if that has anything to do with it. Are sensors that fits Hassey square(probably not)?? It is just that I would hate to lose 20% of MP because i crop square every time. But I suppose that is life. Worse things can happen.

The way I am getting into dMF, and judging from my previous mistakes, it is pretty much give that I would want to start shooting in film too. So, are there any clever set up where i can do both? From what I have read, both Mamiya and Hasselblad do that, but I am more interested in the latter because of the format. What kind of backs can be mounted on various Hasselblad cameras?? Is there a fast rule to figure out by looking at model numbers??


Then, at the end, I suppose it is all about lenses. In that regards 645D is to me a bit concerning, even despite all that legacy lenses out there. What does it mean that legacy lenses may not be "optimized" for digital? Is this a shape of the sensor issue? Subtle difference in sizes?? Not to mention that they have just announced a new wide angle 25 mm lens that cost $4000. Yes I do have $15,000 to start, but I don't want to get sucked into the abyss either.

How Mamiya lenses?? Zeiss lenses for Hasselblad - that needs no introduction for me. Then I found out the other day that there is an adapter for Hassey lenses that fits on 645D.

Lastly, buying an used equipment is not a bad way to go for you guys?? I think I understand both pros and cons on theoretical basis. Is it worth the money you save??



gee, sorry guys, I sort of rumbled on and on. But it looks like you guys have given me much more to think about . . . .
 

BradleyGibson

New member
Hmm... quite a bit there, Nubi...

There really no way to answer Mamiya vs Zeiss, for example. I have my own opinions, of course, but they really aren't worth much to another shooter. You really want to see for yourself.

The same is actually true for camera bodies too. For example, some folks just can't get used to the way Hassy V's work. Some take to it like a duck to water. Not sure how old your eyes are, but manual focus does get harder with age. Only you will be able to answer these questions for you.

I'd suggest a good dealer will be a help here--if you are considering living systems, you can often test drive the systems and the lenses you are considering and get an idea of what you like, what works for you and what doesn't.

I often buy used equipment and have found that, with care and patience, the savings can be significant, and don't have any horror stories to share. Be warned though that in doing so, I don't enjoy the benefits of dealer support, am my own tech support and often must deal with the manufacturer or repair shop directly. Definitely not for everyone.

Hope that helps,
 

emr

Member
Nubi, good to see you here. I'll be following this thread. Who knows, I just might follow that path... somewhere around 2050. And thanks to all the posters so far, good information.
 

jlm

Workshop Member
i happily shot with the V hasselblad (205TCC) for a few years, first with the CFV16 back (16mpix and square, one of only two made, the other was the phase P20) and later with the CFV 39 (39mpix and rectangular) many fantastic lenses available used.

Oh, and with the blad, you get to wind to set the shutter, each shot!
 

BradleyGibson

New member
Also, I'd like to add that I'll willingly share my personal opinions and the experiences they're based on with regard to digital medium format, camera bodies and lenses. It's just that any questions should be more specific than "which is better?" since "better" is so subjective.

If you are planning to shoot telephoto, are sensitive to harsh bokeh, are sensitive to shutter lag, shoot in cold environments, can't carry much weight, rarely shoot at infinity, etc., we can have good chats on relative merits.
 

atanabe

Member
Nubi,
Welcome to the slippery slope! Like a lot of the others have mentioned, try, try, try! What is good for one person may not agree with your experience, if you have a dealer in your area, handle the gear. There are a lot of dealers who provide excellent support on this site for both Phase and Hasselblad, but that support is in cyberspace. Nothing beats eye to eye contact with your dealer to help you through the decision process. Making a digital platform decision is hard without actually shooting with the gear. Coming from an APS-C format that has autofocus and multi frame per second capture to a one frame per second capture combined with a single AF point or manual focus is a major change.

The good news is that both Phase and Hasselblad have sponsored programs that let you shoot with their gear and provide instruction on workflow and operation of the equipment. Guy and Jack are instructors for the Phase program called PODAS and Hasselblad has a program called Hasselblad Xcursions. These programs do cost a bit, but the experience gained is well worth it. It is much less expense than buying a system and later taking a loss on resale if the MF experience is not what you had in mind.

I personally shoot with the Hasselblad CFV 16 (square) and have most every lens that they have produced purchased well under your budget. It works for me but may not work for you as it is manual focus, manual exposure and manual advance. The 16 mega pixel output plays well with my Epson 3800 at 17x22 print size.

Good luck with your decision!

-Al
 

Nubi

New member
That was good!



With that budget, I think you could pretty easily get into a nice Hasselblad CFV kit with three or four lenses, or could get into a Mamiya body and a handful of lenses with an older 22-30MP Leaf or Phase back. I don't think you can get as complete a Hassy H kit since the lenses are more expensive.


Thank you, Jack, for your comment!

When you say CFV kit, what does that mean? CFV digital back and which body?? Can a CFV back be mounted on something like 503CW?? I take it that H kit means CFV back and H body, correct??

Thanks again!
 

Nubi

New member
Yea 15k can get you a nice used P30+ or H31 with body and about 3 or 4 lenses. You have a realistic number there to work with. Or you can try and get a P40+ with body, lens and back or H 40 with body, lens and back which should be close to the 15k but will have to build more lenses later but these two are the latest from both OEM's.

Nice thing at 15k is you have some nice options
Hi, Guy,

THank you for your comment.

P30 + H31 is pretty much a H kit, No??

That set up with several lenses for $15,000 sounds enticing, indeed. I would probably trade 10 MP for more lenses, meaning that I would probably be content with 30 MP, although you never know!!

Thanks!
 

Nubi

New member
For 15k you can look at any of the cameras, and a lower res new back or medium res (~40MP) used back, which is great.

From the living camera systems, I'd recommend taking a look at the Pentax 645D (weatherproof, many nature/landcape features), an
d the Hasselblad H2 (mature system), now that you can put your choice of back on it.

From the dead systems, I'd take a look at the Contax (cheap, many great Zeiss designs available, all with AF), and possibly a Hy6 (glass, support somewhat rare) or Hasselblad V (needs sync cables with most backs, no AF).

With the Hassy and Contax options, I'd recommend the Phase P45+. For the Rollei, the Leaf is the way to go.

And be sure to read Guy's thread on what folks have learned transitioning to MF digital. It's more different than it would appear--many jump in and leave a year later because of this, so knowing at the outset can help you to avoid disappointment.

Welcome!



Hi, Bradley,


Thank you for your comment!

I have looked at 645D. It is a wonderful camera in a sense that I think I can take that thing to places that MF camera typically do not go. The ease of set up, how it handles, I think they are all good.

I do wish that there was a live view for serious focusing. That is really about it. Ergonomics is such that I can start using it without a manual out of the box, being a K-7 user now.


I have not thought about Rollei though. I need to look into that. From cost standpoint, how do they stack up against Mamiya and Hassey???


Thanks again!
 

Nubi

New member

Nubi

New member
Hmm... quite a bit there, Nubi...

There really no way to answer Mamiya vs Zeiss, for example. I have my own opinions, of course, but they really aren't worth much to another shooter. You really want to see for yourself.

The same is actually true for camera bodies too. For example, some folks just can't get used to the way Hassy V's work. Some take to it like a duck to water. Not sure how old your eyes are, but manual focus does get harder with age. Only you will be able to answer these questions for you.

I'd suggest a good dealer will be a help here--if you are considering living systems, you can often test drive the systems and the lenses you are considering and get an idea of what you like, what works for you and what doesn't.

I often buy used equipment and have found that, with care and patience, the savings can be significant, and don't have any horror stories to share. Be warned though that in doing so, I don't enjoy the benefits of dealer support, am my own tech support and often must deal with the manufacturer or repair shop directly. Definitely not for everyone.

Hope that helps,


I live in southern California, and I have no idea where I can go to get my hands on MF cameras . . . .


I touched and handled 645D when I was in Japan last June. In fact, it was only a few days after it came out.


I am totally open to used gears. The concept does not bother me at all. I just wasn't sure if that was an accepted practice when it comes to high end gears as such.


THanks again.
 

Nubi

New member
Nubi, good to see you here. I'll be following this thread. Who knows, I just might follow that path... somewhere around 2050. And thanks to all the posters so far, good information.
Thanks, emr, for directing me to this site.

I have so much to learn here.

I suggest that you also ought look into this MF thing. I see a whole new world out there!
 

Nubi

New member
i happily shot with the V hasselblad (205TCC) for a few years, first with the CFV16 back (16mpix and square, one of only two made, the other was the phase P20) and later with the CFV 39 (39mpix and rectangular) many fantastic lenses available used.

Oh, and with the blad, you get to wind to set the shutter, each shot!


Thanks, Jim, for your post!


I meant to ask you how satisfied you are with somewhat of a lower MP digital backs. Do they work for you?


Winding to set the shutter . . . . Right up my alley. I am all for deliberate photography. Picking one good one out of thousands to me is not how I want to shoot . . .


Thanks!
 

Nubi

New member
Also, I'd like to add that I'll willingly share my personal opinions and the experiences they're based on with regard to digital medium format, camera bodies and lenses. It's just that any questions should be more specific than "which is better?" since "better" is so subjective.

If you are planning to shoot telephoto, are sensitive to harsh bokeh, are sensitive to shutter lag, shoot in cold environments, can't carry much weight, rarely shoot at infinity, etc., we can have good chats on relative merits.


I really look forward to those chats, Brad. To me that is what is all about. But, as you say, I need to get my hands on them and play with them for a while to know what you guys are talking about, to a certain extent. I intend to fully study what advantages and disadvantages dMF have to offer, and plan to use both aspects to my advantage (lol).
 

Nubi

New member
Nubi,
Welcome to the slippery slope! Like a lot of the others have mentioned, try, try, try! What is good for one person may not agree with your experience, if you have a dealer in your area, handle the gear. There are a lot of dealers who provide excellent support on this site for both Phase and Hasselblad, but that support is in cyberspace. Nothing beats eye to eye contact with your dealer to help you through the decision process. Making a digital platform decision is hard without actually shooting with the gear. Coming from an APS-C format that has autofocus and multi frame per second capture to a one frame per second capture combined with a single AF point or manual focus is a major change.

The good news is that both Phase and Hasselblad have sponsored programs that let you shoot with their gear and provide instruction on workflow and operation of the equipment. Guy and Jack are instructors for the Phase program called PODAS and Hasselblad has a program called Hasselblad Xcursions. These programs do cost a bit, but the experience gained is well worth it. It is much less expense than buying a system and later taking a loss on resale if the MF experience is not what you had in mind.

I personally shoot with the Hasselblad CFV 16 (square) and have most every lens that they have produced purchased well under your budget. It works for me but may not work for you as it is manual focus, manual exposure and manual advance. The 16 mega pixel output plays well with my Epson 3800 at 17x22 print size.

Good luck with your decision!

-Al



hi, Atanabe,


Thank you for your comment!

Yes I shoot with APS-C, but I think the way I approach photography is more suited for something like MF, or so I am told. It really is a process for me. I hardly ever use AF, exposure I use auto mode, only as a starting point, and this manual advance part I am very intrigued! So, when I move to the world of MF, I anticipate that the process will not change a whole lot for me, except that it probably will be more fun!!

But, you are right. Until I get my hands on them, there will be issues I have never even dreamed about. So I am going to look into where I can do exactly that.

Thanks again!!
 
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