H4D/60 In Hand At Last!

[Woody Campbell]

Not only that but I prefer focus stacking via a track anyway (certainly when working upclose), much better results.

. . . .

I too use focus stacking, but in landscape situations where the adjustment has to be made by focusing rather than moving the camera. It should be technically feasible for H to provide for firmware-driven focus stacking, particularly if we all let them know that we would like it.

 

[Dustbak]

Yep, focus bracketing is something that could easily be included with the H and this wish has been expressed more than once by more than one person.

 

[dick]

Yep, focus bracketing is something that could easily be included with the H and this wish has been expressed more than once by more than one person.

I think the lenses feed back focus zone info rather than precise extension or focus distance... but it might be possible to achieve something useful just through focus motor run time.

I think that this would be worth perusing, as DOF is, perhaps, the main problem with MF.

 

[ajoyroy]

Yep, focus bracketing is something that could easily be included with the H and this wish has been expressed more than once by more than one person.

HY6/AFi has it. Should not be all that difficult to incorporate it in the Hasselblad.

 

[fotografz]

I think the lenses feed back focus zone info rather than precise extension or focus distance... but it might be possible to achieve something useful just through focus motor run time.

I think that this would be worth perusing, as DOF is, perhaps, the main problem with MF.

This is an interesting idea ... if I am understanding it correctly.

Feed back in what way?

I seem to recall some camera I once had that showed you exactly where the critical point of focus actually was in an image after taking it ... but I can't recall if it was on the LCD or in the software when processing.

Also, a number of cameras I've used had a feature where you focused on two different points in a scene and the camera set the proper f stop to keep it all in "reasonable" focus. Question is wether "reasonable" is enough with MFD as these sensors get bigger and DOF gets thinner?

Please help me understand how focus bracketing would work, and how you would apply it in practice.

Thanks,

-Marc

 

[fotografz]

One should also think about a computer upgrade when getting to these file sizes too. As Marc mentioned being tethered can have interesting results on your computer. I also agree that handheld shots in low light are very easy due the weight and CG. Although the 35-90 is a bit of a beast for handheld, the fast, 100 f/2 renders nice, fairly tight portraits with shallow DOF. The H4D/60's 200% crop is indeed impressive, given that the file is scaled for the internet and it still looks fantastic.

You should see that 200% eye crop on a 30" screen ... actually, you can go to 300% and it still looks good! And as usual, the prints look better than the screen view.

IMO, a good handstrap with a QR plate with dual strap lugs so you can use either the hand strap or shoulder strap goes a long way in making a H camera with the bigger lenses like the 35-90 more hand holdable. The shoulder strap itself is a critical part of the equation .... the strap that comes with the camera should be discarded immediately in favor of a beefier one that has some elasticity to act as a shock absorber. I also jettisoned the H hand strap system because the way of attaching it is badly designed and limits diverse use. I much prefer the Camadapter system with the dual lug Arca quick release. In fact, I use this on all my cameras now.

I think most tethered issues will be outdated laptops that don't have enough graphics card power. Towers can be updated to keep-up at a relatively reasonable cost. Almost every issue I've encountered in tethered work had to do with the tether cord itself or the firewire port on the computer. For that reason, I've keep a supply of cords on hand and have both FW800 to 800 & FW800 to 400 versions in case something gets jinky during a shoot.

-Marc

 

[fotografz]

Thanks for this Marc... as a newbie to all this MF stuff, I'm finding that any info (even about the other platforms) can be helpful.

Looks like you've got a winner there!

Thanks Shelby. I've been following your MFD trek with great interest because we were fellow Sony shooters and I always admired your work with the A900. I'm very interested in the effect MFD has on you, both good and bad, as you explore the possibilities.

The H4D/60 may be a winner, but it isn't mine yet. It's a very serious financial decision at this stage of my photographic/life trek. A completely different way of thinking and working even compared to the Leica S2 kit ... which sucked up most of my gear fund for the foreseeable future. That makes this a personal expeniture rather than a business one ... which draws the wifey into the equation A wee bit hard to rationalize a camera that costs as much as a new car ... or hypothetically in her case, a fine triple strand of Mikimoto matched pearls :ROTFL:

-Marc

 

[fotografz]

Addendum:

One very serious question I have about this H4D/60 is the hinted at, but not explained, auxiliary power source. Obviously, this DB with its large Dalsa sensor is perfectly suited for use on a technical camera, and if there has been any major critical competitive difference with the HD backs it has been power issues for field work on something other than the H body. To date, this required having the Image Bank-II tethered to the back via the firewire port of the back. The Image-Bank-II is pretty small and is powered by clip-on Sony camcorder Lithium batteries ... but it is tethered nonetheless.

The new port on the bottom of the H4D/60 appears to be a standard round power port ... it seems to preclude use of an auxiliary clip-on battery like found on the Hasselblad CF backs or the Leaf Aptus backs. This seems to indicate the power source will also require some sort of tethered operation.

Now, I personally do not need this feature since all my technical camera use has been tethered to a computer, or I use the HTS/1.5 for what movements I need in the field ... however, since these backs are increasingly used by shooters on a precision tech camera, I believe it can affect value perceptions both new, and if selling used. So, it would really be nice to know where this feature is going.

Thoughts?

-Marc

 

[dick]

I think the lenses feed back focus zone info rather than precise extension or focus distance... but it might be possible to achieve something useful just through focus motor run time.

I think that this would be worth perusing, as DOF is, perhaps, the main problem with MF.

This is an interesting idea ... if I am understanding it correctly.

Feed back in what way?

Some data is fed back to the camera from the lens, the zoom setting, F stop and the shutter speed, as this info is required for exposure calculation, and it is also recorded with the picture, and this was possible when the controls for setting the aperture and shutter speed were on the lens.

It would be possible to feed back the focus distance or extension... it is difficult to work out how true focus can work without this info, as the camera has to re-calculate the extension to correct the focus distance to maintain focus on the subject component on which you originally focused.

I seem to recall some camera I once had that showed you exactly where the critical point of focus actually was in an image after taking it ... but I can't recall if it was on the LCD or in the software when processing.

Also, a number of cameras I've used had a feature where you focused on two different points in a scene and the camera set the proper f stop to keep it all in "reasonable" focus. Question is wether "reasonable" is enough with MFD as these sensors get bigger and DOF gets thinner?

Please help me understand how focus bracketing would work, and how you would apply it in practice.

Thanks,

-Marc

The Sinar P2 & P3 systems have a mechanical system with which you focused on one point in a scene, and you can read off the proper f stop to keep it all in "reasonable" focus from a scale as you re-focus to the other end of the extension range.

With the Hasselblad you would focus on one end of your desired DOF range, press a button to record the setting and then do the same for the other end...

The electronics would then tell you what aperture you would need to get it all in focus, or how many exposures you would need to DOF stack to get it all in focus. If you have to use DOF stacking you would probably want to use the aperture for optimal sharpness (e.g. f8) but the software could give you the option to use any specified aperture, and would calculate the number of shots required accordingly, depending on the disc of confusion for the lens in use at the specified aperture.

Then you would press the button and let the camera get on with it, dividing the extension range by the number of shots required and setting the extension for each shot.

The true focus technology would allow you to point the rangefinder spot at subject components and re-calculate the focus distances for you.

I am a retired "has been" real-time computer programmer, electronic engineer, mechanical engineer, technical author, part-time professional photographer... an I am now trying to come out of retirement as a "solutions provider" photographer, specializing in work that the average Professional Photographer cannot cost-effectively undertake with standard pro kit.

 

[dick]

Addendum:
The new port on the bottom of the H4D/60 appears to be a standard round power port ... it seems to preclude use of an auxiliary clip-on battery like found on the Hasselblad CF backs or the Leaf Aptus backs. This seems to indicate the power source will also require some sort of tethered operation.

Thoughts?

-Marc

I believe the there will be ¿is? a clip-on battery pack for the H4D-60 back that will allow untethered use.

 

[fotografz]

I believe the there will be ¿is? a clip-on battery pack for the H4D-60 back that will allow untethered use.

It will be interesting to see how this is implemented as a clip on ... hope you are right.

-Marc

 

[fotografz]

Some data is fed back to the camera from the lens, the zoom setting, F stop and the shutter speed, as this info is required for exposure calculation, and it is also recorded with the picture, and this was possible when the controls for setting the aperture and shutter speed were on the lens.

It would be possible to feed back the focus distance or extension... it is difficult to work out how true focus can work without this info, as the camera has to re-calculate the extension to correct the focus distance to maintain focus on the subject component on which you originally focused.

The Sinar P2 & P3 systems have a mechanical system with which you focused on one point in a scene, and you can read off the proper f stop to keep it all in "reasonable" focus from a scale as you re-focus to the other end of the extension range.

With the Hasselblad you would focus on one end of your desired DOF range, press a button to record the setting and then do the same for the other end...

The electronics would then tell you what aperture you would need to get it all in focus, or how many exposures you would need to DOF stack to get it all in focus. If you have to use DOF stacking you would probably want to use the aperture for optimal sharpness (e.g. f8) but the software could give you the option to use any specified aperture, and would calculate the number of shots required accordingly, depending on the disc of confusion for the lens in use at the specified aperture.

Then you would press the button and let the camera get on with it, dividing the extension range by the number of shots required and setting the extension for each shot.

The true focus technology would allow you to point the rangefinder spot at subject components and re-calculate the focus distances for you.

I am a retired "has been" real-time computer programmer, electronic engineer, mechanical engineer, technical author, part-time professional photographer... an I am now trying to come out of retirement as a "solutions provider" photographer, specializing in work that the average Professional Photographer cannot cost-effectively undertake with standard pro kit.

Interesting idea for "repotting" yourself Dick. :thumbup:

Regarding the multiple focus points calculated by the camera ... of special interest would be use with the HTS/1.5 ... if it could be included as a manual focus option.

-Marc

 

[Professional]

Anything new with H4D-60?

 

[johnnygoesdigital]

You should see that 200% eye crop on a 30" screen ... actually, you can go to 300% and it still looks good! And as usual, the prints look better than the screen view.

IMO, a good handstrap with a QR plate with dual strap lugs so you can use either the hand strap or shoulder strap goes a long way in making a H camera with the bigger lenses like the 35-90 more hand holdable. The shoulder strap itself is a critical part of the equation .... the strap that comes with the camera should be discarded immediately in favor of a beefier one that has some elasticity to act as a shock absorber. I also jettisoned the H hand strap system because the way of attaching it is badly designed and limits diverse use. I much prefer the Camadapter system with the dual lug Arca quick release. In fact, I use this on all my cameras now.

I think most tethered issues will be outdated laptops that don't have enough graphics card power. Towers can be updated to keep-up at a relatively reasonable cost. Almost every issue I've encountered in tethered work had to do with the tether cord itself or the firewire port on the computer. For that reason, I've keep a supply of cords on hand and have both FW800 to 800 & FW800 to 400 versions in case something gets jinky during a shoot.

-Marc

Marc,

Yes, the Camadapter/shock absorbing strap should mitigate the 35-90mm's heft, thus making an awesome lens more usable for longer shoots.

Obviously, tethered power has been the bane of my experience with technical use with the H system as it relates to portability in the field. A clip-on battery as opposed to tethered, would go a long way to liberating those landscape/macro shooters.

 

[fotografz]

Anything new with H4D-60?

Like what? Other than purchase decision anxiety, not much.

Although, come to think of it, I did open H4D/60 shots done with the HC 120 macro and the HCD 35-90 zoom (shot at 35mm and 90mm) and the files were identical in size.

I thought the zoom cropped a tiny bit?

I even went back into Phocus and made sure there was zero crop on any image.



-Marc

 

[Dustbak]

In the preferences of Phocus you can check that HCD images are either cropped or not. You have probably turned this off, you will have the full 60MP image in that case.

 

[fotografz]

In the preferences of Phocus you can check that HCD images are either cropped or not. You have probably turned this off, you will have the full 60MP image in that case.

Thanks, I suspected something like that. I'll have to go back and inspect the edges of the FF 35-90 H4D/60 shots ... probably doesn't matter with Portraits and such. Didn't even notice it on the flower shot or other stuff I shot outside.

-Marc

 

[Professional]

Like what? Other than purchase decision anxiety, not much.

Although, come to think of it, I did open H4D/60 shots done with the HC 120 macro and the HCD 35-90 zoom (shot at 35mm and 90mm) and the files were identical in size.

I thought the zoom cropped a tiny bit?

I even went back into Phocus and made sure there was zero crop on any image.



-Marc

I don't know, just i feel anyone got this camera and do reviews or tests i feel there is something i don't know, so how can i test the camera to see what i am missing?

 

[David Grover / Phase One]

It will be interesting to see how this is implemented as a clip on ... hope you are right.

-Marc

Hi Marc,

This is in prototyping stage and will fit to the base of the H4D60, taking a Sony L type lithium battery which we have used before.

D

 

[David Grover / Phase One]

This is an interesting idea ... if I am understanding it correctly.

Feed back in what way?

I seem to recall some camera I once had that showed you exactly where the critical point of focus actually was in an image after taking it ... but I can't recall if it was on the LCD or in the software when processing.

Also, a number of cameras I've used had a feature where you focused on two different points in a scene and the camera set the proper f stop to keep it all in "reasonable" focus. Question is wether "reasonable" is enough with MFD as these sensors get bigger and DOF gets thinner?

Please help me understand how focus bracketing would work, and how you would apply it in practice.

Thanks,

-Marc

Hi Marc,

The "hyperfocal" distance feature you mention has been on a few cameras (I think Canon). It is actually held as a patent - so if a company (such as us) would want to include it then a license fee appears.

Technically it might not be possible to achieve anyway, as the lens reports what 'Zone' it is in to the camera. If your two focus points are within the same zone then there would not be enough data to do an accurate, useful calculation.

Focus stacking, I think could be done with firmware, but again, it might be harder than it actually seems.

David