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Love the one your with...

PeterA

Well-known member
Well Jim - I get a bit short at times - but that is my work life spilling over to fun..you get a bit nervous and twitchy managing a few billion dollars in volatile markets.. I eat stress for breakfast..

most companies and their representatives and their sales people would be in a lot of trouble if the legal and regulatory standards applied to the investment management industry also applied to them...

anyway hows your thinking going re Alpa? Anything I can do help - let me know

Cheers
Pete
 

fotografz

Well-known member
If that was a chica on that horse Marc - i would have preferred a front on shot posted - and you can keep the saddle protection feature -:) LOL
Interesting to see both Leaf and Sinar now having their eyes and voices on the forum - all we need is a Phase One and Hasselblad dude and the set would be complete.
It would be good to have serious company representatives from various competing forms responding to user feedback - and I am sure that they would get something back.
I volunteer to ask any questions that you pro shooters want asked but wont in case you offend - I am good at calling a spade a shovel -:)
Yes it was a chica on that horse Peter, but if I shot the attributes of the young lady instead of the product I wouldn't get paid now would I? :)

That's a good idea about inviting company representatives to participate. My Hasselblad dealer, Jim Arnosky of City Lights Digital, is a really knowledgeable guy ... City Lights is actually a big commercial photography studio in Detroit, and Jim is a photographer who uses the stuff daily, or helps other working photographers renting stage space solve creative problems with the gear.

I think the value of this is answering operational questions when they arise.
In my experience, some complaints about MF digital gear arise from user error or lack of "how to" which turn out to have simple answers.

I'll invite Jim to introduce himself and perhaps lurk in wait for questions that he may be able to shed some light on.
 

kipling

New member
sweet. thanks for the info marc. i've been going through the menu and getting used to the settings and yeah, i found the mirror/capture delay function, and it works. i did some handheld test shots and there was no mirror bounce at all at any shutter speed – quite a nice feature.
i have the h3d II 39 for now and the iso 400 is certainly usuable. with strobes and proper exposure it's quite clean, with a little noise in the shadows and in some colors, but very usable.

the resolution on this thing is almost overkill (i think hasselblad should make a firmware addition that allows for a cropped vertical in the landscape position and so allowing the ability to shoot without having to turn the camera at a lower resolution. would be enough resolution for most editorial jobs i think.). i thik i'll be more than happy with 31mp.

flexcolor seemed pretty intuitive to me... t does seem a bit more like a scanner software than a raw photo software to me though. is it possible to shoot tethered in flexcolor and send the files directly to lightroom or camera raw for processing and viewing?

marc, have you seen the new software that will be replacing flexcolor? is it going to be similar to lc11 or capture pro? what will the feature advancement be? will i be able to shoot with live view? will there be advanced color correction possibilities as in lightroom? okay, okay, i'll stop pestering you now : ) time to get a hassy rep. in here to give you a break!
 

fotografz

Well-known member
sweet. thanks for the info marc. i've been going through the menu and getting used to the settings and yeah, i found the mirror/capture delay function, and it works. i did some handheld test shots and there was no mirror bounce at all at any shutter speed – quite a nice feature.
i have the h3d II 39 for now and the iso 400 is certainly usable. with strobes and proper exposure it's quite clean, with a little noise in the shadows and in some colors, but very usable.

the resolution on this thing is almost overkill (i think hasselblad should make a firmware addition that allows for a cropped vertical in the landscape position and so allowing the ability to shoot without having to turn the camera at a lower resolution. would be enough resolution for most editorial jobs i think.). i thik i'll be more than happy with 31mp.

flexcolor seemed pretty intuitive to me... t does seem a bit more like a scanner software than a raw photo software to me though. is it possible to shoot tethered in flexcolor and send the files directly to lightroom or camera raw for processing and viewing?

marc, have you seen the new software that will be replacing flexcolor? is it going to be similar to lc11 or capture pro? what will the feature advancement be? will i be able to shoot with live view? will there be advanced color correction possibilities as in lightroom? okay, okay, i'll stop pestering you now : ) time to get a hassy rep. in here to give you a break!
Hey Kipling, great that mirror delay worked for you. As you found out, it's pretty cool feature. Do you have a wide lenses to play with? If so try the DAC feature. Amazing.

Hey, if you wanted to just shoot level all the time and crop maybe an etched screen would work? Interesting idea. I think Bright Screen will do custom etched screens.

The H3D-II ISO 800 looks damned close to the H3D/39s 400, so you should be pleased with the extra stop if you decide on the H3D/31. When Phocus hits it'll jump to 1600 ... which would be okay for some candid wedding stuff in low light ... but I'm more interested in what the 800 will look like then.

I just processed some Leica DMR shots with the newest Leica firmware using the latest Flexcolor version, and it's ISO 800 performance has improved tremendously ... shot some side-by-side with a Canon 1DMKIII at 800, and there was virtually no difference ... which wasn't the case before.

I personally haven't seen the new Hasselblad software in action. My re-seller has, and says it is very similar to Lightroom in workflow ... which isn't surprising considering they hired some Lightroom developers to work on Phocus.
 

kipling

New member
Hey Kipling, great that mirror delay worked for you. As you found out, it's pretty cool feature. Do you have a wide lenses to play with? If so try the DAC feature. Amazing.

Hey, if you wanted to just shoot level all the time and crop maybe an etched screen would work? Interesting idea. I think Bright Screen will do custom etched screens.

The H3D-II ISO 800 looks damned close to the H3D/39s 400, so you should be pleased with the extra stop if you decide on the H3D/31. When Phocus hits it'll jump to 1600 ... which would be okay for some candid wedding stuff in low light ... but I'm more interested in what the 800 will look like then.

I just processed some Leica DMR shots with the newest Leica firmware using the latest Flexcolor version, and it's ISO 800 performance has improved tremendously ... shot some side-by-side with a Canon 1DMKIII at 800, and there was virtually no difference ... which wasn't the case before.

I personally haven't seen the new Hasselblad software in action. My re-seller has, and says it is very similar to Lightroom in workflow ... which isn't surprising considering they hired some Lightroom developers to work on Phocus.
hey marc,

good idea with the etched screen. i was thinking that a horizontal crop mode would be cool to bump up the frame rate and make the workflow faster for editorial portrait work – would be a cool feature.

i'll be hearing from hasselblad hopefully soon on a new trade-in offer and might be able to place my order for the h3dII 31 this week.

usable iso 800 is fantastic news to me, looking very forward to this.

i got the monster zoom with the h3d II 39 to try out and i'm more than pleased with what it's delivering – very sharp and low distortion. i think i'll go with it, the 35mm and the 110mm for portrait work. what would you suggest for people, editorial and advertising applications? is the 80mm as good as the contax 80mm? i think it would be, although a stop slower.and how does it compare to the 110mm? i'll have to see how long the 110 is with the cropped hassy 31. is it a 1.3 crop factor?

thanks, kip
 

fotografz

Well-known member
Yes, the crop factor is 1.3X on the 31 meg ... the new higher mag viewfinder made it so I could hardly tell the difference from the 1.1X 39 meg. with the old finder.

The lens you ask about isn't a 110, it's a 100/2.2 Kipling, not much longer than the 80/2.8. I use that lens more than any ... mostly for people, waist up portraits, and especially for my documentary style of wedding work (see attached wedding example using HC100/2.2 @ f/4.8).

I just recently had to use the 80 0n a job in my studio shooting an ad and the 100 was just a tad to long, so I used the 80 for the first time and was surprised how good it was. But honestly, I haven't used it enough to compare it to the Contax, which was a pretty good normal lens.

Frankly, they're all really good lenses, and the only ones I don't own yet are the zoom and 210. I used the 150 with a 1.7X for a lot of those Muddy Creek shots. Also use a 300/4.5 which is wonderful.
 
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kipling

New member
thanks again marc, don't know why i wrote 110mm. a cobination of the fe planar 2,0/110mm and wishfull thinking maybe : )
 

Jim Stone

Workshop Member
Peter,

Many thanks for the offer. If you can tell me where the digital MF thing is going to shake out, THAT would be a huge help !! ;) I am sold on the Alpa system and will definitely buy it. I suits my landscape shooting style and it's very sexy !! :D However, choosing which back is a whole other situation. I have an used Contax and a couple of lenses which I am probably going to sell. Not b/c it doesn't work as the camera and Zeiss lenses are tried and true. But, since the brand is gone, I guess I'd rather start fresh. But which way to go? The new HY6 systems? Hassy HD3? Or the soon to arrive Phase/Mamiya collaboration? It would be nice to be able to use the back on both the Alpa AND another camera. So, in a nutshell, that is the dilemma.

I'm sure there won't be any suggestions from this group !! I don't want to wait for Photokina next year, but also would NOT be happy if a full size sensor is announced!! Decisions, decisions !

Thanks again Peter,

Jim
 

PeterA

Well-known member
Well Jim - the good thing is that there is no rush to make a decision.

The whole MFDB industry has been fighting for survival for a while now. The problem is that they just cant get enough economies of scale via high volumes to get costs lower and therefore entice more people into the larger format.

Strategically the companies are fighting each other, whilst having to deal with new chip technologies whilst having to deal with advances in 35mm formats. Advances in chip technology have also seen a shorter product life cycle and a large depreciation factor impacting negatively on a relatively large capital outlay requirement.

Hasselblads closed system was an aggressive but logical move - introduced only after their backs were as good as competitor backs. Leaf and Sinar have quickly regrouped to make use of the Rollie lens installed user base as well as the promise of a you beaut new camera body. Phase One is 'apparently' teaming up with Mamiya.

Typically what you end up seeing in industry situations like this is consolidation after a prolonged period of low profitability. So the end user hs to figure out who are the likely relative winners/survivors.

I think 35mm technology is peaking - this is the first Canon Ds series camera I have no interest in even looking at for example. People are learning that the number of megapixels is secondary to the quality of megapixels.

This is a positive thing for MFDB makers who probably wont see technology peaking for them for another megapixel upgrade cycle at least.

For the enthusiast user - there are a number of factors to take into consideration beyond those sketched above. it all boils down to how much cashola you are happy to throw at your hobby. I think that the MFDB manufacturers have a very dumb approach to marketing to people with high discretionary expenditure capability. their sales efforts are primitive in comparison to other high value brand name goods. So don't expect a level of service matched to amount of cash you pay.

I guess I always judge a person's real thinking by looking at their portfolio - in my industry I judge actions not words.

So if you want to know what i really think - look at what i am doing. I have just ordered the 39 megapixel blad - I would be as happy with a 31 or even a 20..I am out of Leaf at a significant 'cost' to me - not because the Leaf back I currently use is bad - on the contrary it i a great piece of gear - but I want to change to a total system - fortunately my choice of H series blad appears to be the 'safest' bet at the moment.

As 'backs' go they are all good. You wont be disappointed compared to 35mm land there is no comparison. Phase One is a great system without a camera and lens integrated solution - they are promising something special with Mamiya - as Leaf and Sinar are with their Hy6/AFi...

Anyway they are my quick summary views on the state of the market. Don't get sucked into listening to people who have their egos tied up with their particular choice. Take a holistic view of the total work flow and what the system offers you in terms of flexibility, software, lenses, and quality of support you get from the nearest dealer.

As for Alpa - you can hang any back off one of these no problem.
 

Chuck Jones

Subscriber Member
Very well put Peter. There is little in what you said that I could disagree with. I will add a couple of things though for Jim's benefit making a very hard decision. And also should disclose for the record that I presently own a Jenoptik M11 in Hassy V mount, and a Leaf Aptus 75S, in Contax 645 mount.

I have gone through most everything myself in trying to make my own buying decisions in the past. So Jim, my heart goes out to you and everyone else in your position. It is not an easy decision, nor is all of the information you probably want available without a "bum's rush" sales pitch thrown in whether or not you really wanted to hear it. I had a real nightmare several years ago when I bought my first back. There wasn't information to be had, and even fewer opportunities to actually feel or handle the backs I was basing my decision to spend as much for as I would a new car that I could at least see, touch, and test drive at my local dealer. Things are better today for sure, especially given the great resources like this one Jack and Guy are providing, and the greater number of we working professionals that both own the gear, and use it in daily commerce.

First off, let me say that in my opinion, today the major "differences" with all of the MF backs have converged to the point that they are all very good at what they are designed to do best. None of them would I call "dogs" today. Imacon/Blad finally got rid of the "Mellow Yellows" syndrome, and PhaseOne has dialed back the overblown color punch that existed when I bought my first Leaf back. So any of them are going to be pretty close really to each other. I say this as I duck the flying rocks that making that statement here probably exposes myself to.

My personal preference is towards Dalsa sensors, as I do value and see a benefit for my own work from having a true full 16 bit A/D converter in the color gamut & tonal range. But the Kodak sensor backs do work far better for longer exposures and at about a full stop or possibly more of high ISO shooting. Each manufacturer implements the sensors in different ways, with differences in the workflow and controls. Probably the strongest MF post processing software would presently be PhaseOne's Capture One, but the latest information I get on the new Hasselblad software does look good. Leaf brings up the rear by a long way with their Leaf Capture 11, but does enjoy very wide support in the other software products available to the market. In the end, I guess your decision will have to be made based upon your available budget, or how well you get along with your bank loan officer, and upon your own specific needs & wants. Your subject matter also will be a large factor too in deciding between the subtle differences in the backs. As Peter already pointed out, the Alpa will accept any of the backs, in almost every mount you can imagine. Andre & Co have done a really great job in making sure of this. They even have their mount ready now for the new Leaf AFi/Sinar Hy6 body, and it isn't even shipping to dealers yet. Great camera system by the way, and one that I am likely to be adopting myself at some point in the future. So Jim, what are you going to be using this new MF system to shoot? Maybe we can make some suggestions on what you should consider looking at at least.
 

Jim Stone

Workshop Member
Hi Chuck,

As previously mentioned, I spend a lot of time in Montana, and therefore enjoy wildlife (currently 1ds Mark 11 with long lenses) and landscapes. And the M8 for everything else. It's the M8 that has rekindled by passion. The simplicity and real, individual involvement has really smitten me. Then I saw the Alpa.....yikes !! I knew I was in trouble. :D So, that almost immediately brought me back to MF digital, which I've looked at for the last couple of years, but never could quite figure where it fit. Now, however, I do and thus the quandary. But while it IS a bit frustrating and confusing, the hunt is certainly fun!!

Welcome to the forum by the way, and look forward to your continued insights.

Cheers,

Jim
 
T

thsinar

Guest
Dear Chuck,

Agree with you on all.

Just a little precision: the Sinar Hy6 IS shipping, in small quantities, but is shipping already since more than a month.

Best regards,
Thierry

They even have their mount ready now for the new Leaf AFi/Sinar Hy6 body, and it isn't even shipping to dealers yet.
 

fotografz

Well-known member
I agree, the differences between backs are now minor. The differences between the most recent backs and the ones just prior to it are incremental. The differences between the most recent and the next version will also be incremental. Even if a truly full frame 645 sensor hits the market, it will be a marginal gain because the current ones are already at 1.1X. It'll all be incremental until a 49X49 or 54X54 sensor comes along ... which is highly unlikely anytime soon, and when it does will be the domain of such photographers as the Sultan of Brunei and Donald Trump : -)

You can always wait. That will be true forever. It depends on whether you want to make MF digital photographs now or wait a year, or wait forever. I can assure you that "forever" is the least expensive route : -)

The software is also becoming a level playing field. With-in a few months Hasselblad will replace Flexcolor, Sinar will do so also, and Leaf has made it so easy and color accurate to use Lightroom and ACR that I now only use their Leaf Capture 11 software for tethered studio capture which it is VERY fast and stable at doing.

I started with the amazing Kodak Proback ... the back that changed it all. I now use a H3D/31, H3D/39-II, an Aptus 75s Mamiya mount on a AFD-II & RZ and a Hasselbald CFV on a 203FE system. It all works as advertised. It all produces stunning images.

However, in the end you form preferences based on your work needs and habits. My preference is the H system for the DSLR like integrated approach and level of versatility. I use it for documentary style wedding work (Film or Digital which is why I kept the H3D/31 as is), commercial location work, tethered studio work where I can micro focus a live view image from the computer, and on a Rollei Xact for view camera work.

So the advice to list off what you see yourself doing with a digital back AND what experience you already have with digital capture AND who is the closest, most responsive dealer would be most helpful for providing our experiences in reply.
 

BJNY

Member
I realize member Pham owns and/or sold a Hy6 camera body somehow, but dealers have just recently placed orders for their demo kits. When a retail customer can take delivery on an order, then the camera is "shipping". While it's frustrating to Leaf users searching for pricing and upgrade policies, Leaf/Yair are prudent not to make any statements/claims until the system is available for purchase.

Also, let's take every opportunity to use correct words, and avoid further rampant confusion that exists.
Rotating vs. Reversible: backs rotate on a Mamiya RZ/RB 67 and Fuji GX680 while the ground glass is reversible between portrait + landscape orientation as on a view camera.
Porro vs. Prism: Kudos to Mamiya for having differentiated between Porro [uses mirrors] and Prism [uses prism ;)] finders on their classic medium format cameras.
Adapter plate vs. Interface/Personality plate: e.g. Adapter plates made by Kapture Group allow a Hasselblad V-mount back to fit onto a Fuji GX680, while all Sinarbacks and Hasselblad's CF-series relies on interchangeable interface plates to fit different camera bodies.

Just a little precision: the Sinar Hy6 IS shipping, in small quantities, but is shipping already since more than a month.
 
T

thsinar

Guest
hi Bill,

The Hy6 DOES deliver and I have customers USING it, in China: and it's not the dealer's demo unit, but their own purchased: I do not make such a claim when untrue or not sure about what I am saying. Yes, the Sinar Hy6 system is available for order or purchase. But true as well, full production capacity and full delivery capacity is by far not reached yet.

However, I don't know member Pham.

sorry for the wording confusion, but that is our own way to put it:

- since the beginning of digital we are speaking about our adapter kits: difficult to change now, even if it seems un-appropriate.

- Sinar is using the word "revolving adapter" for the optional adapter available for the Hy6 and which allows to turn the back from H to V WITHOUT having to take it away from the camera. This in opposition to a back which can rotate and which implies that the back has to be taken away.

- Prism or mirror finder: Sinar is offically using the term Reflex Finder or Mirror Finder. There might be some people out speaking about prism finder, but our terminlogy in the brochures, price lists or other documentation is clear.

Best regards,
Thierry

I realize member Pham owns and/or sold a Hy6 camera body somehow, but dealers have just recently placed orders for their demo kits. When a retail customer can take delivery on an order, then the camera is "shipping". While it's frustrating to Leaf users searching for pricing and upgrade policies, Leaf/Yair are prudent not to make any statements/claims until the system is available for purchase.

Also, let's take every opportunity to use correct words, and avoid further rampant confusion that exists.
Rotating vs. Reversible: backs rotate on a Mamiya RZ/RB 67 and Fuji GX680 while the ground glass is reversible between portrait + landscape orientation as on a view camera.
Porro vs. Prism: Kudos to Mamiya for having differentiated between Porro [uses mirrors] and Prism [uses prism ;)] finders on their classic medium format cameras.
Adapter plate vs. Interface/Personality plate: e.g. Adapter plates made by Kapture Group allow a Hasselblad V-mount back to fit onto a Fuji GX680, while all Sinarbacks and Hasselblad's CF-series relies on interchangeable interface plates to fit different camera bodies.
 

woodyspedden

New member
hi Bill,

The Hy6 DOES deliver and I have customers USING it, in China: and it's not the dealer's demo unit, but their own purchased: I do not make such a claim when untrue or not sure about what I am saying. Yes, the Sinar Hy6 system is available for order or purchase. But true as well, full production capacity and full delivery capacity is by far not reached yet.

However, I don't know member Pham.

sorry for the wording confusion, but that is our own way to put it:

- since the beginning of digital we are speaking about our adapter kits: difficult to change now, even if it seems un-appropriate.

- Sinar is using the word "revolving adapter" for the optional adapter available for the Hy6 and which allows to turn the back from H to V WITHOUT having to take it away from the camera. This in opposition to a back which can rotate and which implies that the back has to be taken away.

- Prism or mirror finder: Sinar is offically using the term Reflex Finder or Mirror Finder. There might be some people out speaking about prism finder, but our terminlogy in the brochures, price lists or other documentation is clear.

Best regards,
Thierry
Hey Tierry

Would you be perhaps related to Ralph Hagenauer of leica?

Woody
 
T

thsinar

Guest
hi woody,

no, not at all, but I know him well and been in touch since I sometimes get mails addressed in fact to him and the opposite!

Best regards,
Thierry

Hey Tierry

Would you be perhaps related to Ralph Hagenauer of leica?

Woody
 

docmoore

Subscriber and Workshop Member
With all of the traffic....some of it very contentious...concerning the soon to be appearing S2 I thought it might be worthwhile to resurrect this older thread. The basic theme is if it was good enough for me to buy it maybe I can show a bit of why I like(d) it. I thought I might post a few pics of some fairly mundane things recently captured with my H3D II. Yes it is old, but truth be known so am I.

With the Thanksgiving holiday in the US approaching, I want to acknowledge the work that Jack and Guy (really all of the moderators) do to maintain the respectful balance that underpins this site. I am thankful for their efforts to foster a congenial exchange of ideas and captures. There is major talent on this forum and I personally consider it a privilege to see others' work.

Disclaimer: The following isn't ART more like therapy for me.

In spite of being old news - it focuses well, has decent dynamic range, and allows more creative choices than I have the time to explore.

Old Fire Truck:
H3DII 39 50-110



Delivery man's nightmare - 706 or 707:
H3DII 39 50-110



Bob.
 

docmoore

Subscriber and Workshop Member
A couple more.

Ravages of time.

Rail Coupling:
H3D II 39 HC 50-110



Ride Control:
H3D II 39 HC 50-110



Bench Warmers:
H3D II 39 HC 50-110



Little Wheels:
H3D II 39 HC 50-110



Bob
 
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