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New "arTec" Sinar Architecture Camera

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Natasa Stojsic

Guest
Thierry, VERY NICE:thumbs:

To make it even better or rather LOGICAL... to use this opportunity and the potential of this Camera to make it sell enough for "arTec" to become STANDARD period. Of course to do that number of things should happen:

A - Interchangeable Lenses/Huge number of Cambo:thumbup:/Horseman:thumbup:/ALPA users:thumbup:
B - Multiple Digital Backs/Hasselblad, Leaf, Mamiya, Phase, obviously SINAR:thumbs:
C - PRICE/Not Cheap but similar to others +/-:thumbup:


YES, ONE MORE (V E R Y) IMPORTANT THING FOR THIS YEAR:

:thumbs:BIGGER DB SCREEN & LONG EXPOSURE PLEASEEEEEEEEEEE!!!!!!:thumbs:
 

Jack

Sr. Administrator
Staff member
Bob,

there is no maliciousness from Sinar side here. It has always been the work and responsibility (decision) of a back manufacturer to provide the adaption to a certain camera platform, never the opposite.

Best regards,
Thierry
Hmmm... I assumed for example that Horseman and Alpa made the adapters for the different camera-mounts to fit their bodies? Or am I mistaken and it is the back manufacturers themselves that supply them to those two companies?

Cheers,
 

Bob

Administrator
Staff member
Jack,
If Sinar does not want to dell into he Phase installed base, then that it their prerogative.
But if there was a "universal" back to camera interface, that would save everyone r&d money and make the market more open and competitive. Maybe some vendors are just too self-deluded to think that they can control the market, but the customers, in the final analysis, are the ones with the money. We really could use the equivalent of the M8 bolt in camera to back interfaces.
-bob
 

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
Alpa makes the adapters to fit different backs. I am waiting on my Mamiya mount as we speak.

Here is my issue with this whole thing . Sinar makes there backs to fit other camera's via a 2 thousand dollar adapter . Than Sinar builds a camera and shuts everyone out. So we go from a open system of backs to a closed system of Sinar body which is not a standard camera to begin with. So if Sinar wants to make real money here open it up to everyone and sell 500 of them instead of 100. This will not really help them sell more backs. To me this is all wrong, sorry . You want to make money and provide a product exactly like Horseman, Alpa and Cambo than enter that market as a separate entity instead of a back maker.
This is something I would actually buy , but if my back is not supported than I won't be doing it and I think this will be the bitch here for folks. Just my opinion But all the folks sitting on Hassy and Phase backs which is a BIG market are left holding the bag. It's like a double standard.
 

Bob

Administrator
Staff member
Guy,
Closed interfaces mean that the maker is afraid of opening up to competition. Otherwise you have to best of breed in every area. The problem is usually that the closed systems vendors get boxed out since they cannot compete in all areas at once, especially for small companies, so their sales -curve is truncated when they are eclipsed in any of the dimensions they attempt to control.
-bob
 

KurtKamka

Subscriber Member
And, phase/mamiya owners might be more able to afford the add-on camera after building up their lens kit with inexpensive Mamiya lenses. :)

Very nice Rainer, I understand you helped put together many of the specifications. Here's a salute to Sinar, too, for working on delivering a very interesting and I'm certain very useful accessory.

Kurt
 
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rainer-v

Guest
Guy,
Closed interfaces mean that the maker is afraid of opening up to competition. Otherwise you have to best of breed in every area. The problem is usually that the closed systems vendors get boxed out since they cannot compete in all areas at once, especially for small companies, so their sales -curve is truncated when they are eclipsed in any of the dimensions they attempt to control.
-bob
lets see if the camera will work as good as it looks to me at the moment.
in that case i am pretty confident that someone will make soon adapters for it. it should be a nice little business,- so far it looks to me there is no other camera available with similar specs and so many colleagues will want to use it. for me it will be a personal honor if the things go that way.

as i believe and if we like it or not, the mf back makers are in a very strong competition between themselves, so no one will want to feed the cash box of the other brand, not directly and not indirectly. you cant compare here a manufactory as sinar with alpa or cambo, which dont sell backs, so their main interest is to sell their camera to all brands. its a pity, but it has its logic.

the good news is that at least two brands work already with the arTec, sinar and leaf. ( certainly its not sinars fault that leaf decided to construct a new fixed mount for the afi, and not a removable adapter for the older leaf backs as sinar has done it with all its product line ).
in any case it should be a simple thing to make an adapter. ( although i am not 100% sure if i dont tell bs. here, because its still possible that the arTek hy mount brings the sensor closer to the back-lens as e.g. a h/ v-adapter could do ). its certainly nearly a wonder that sinar could make a rotatable mount and bring the sensor still close enough to the lens for the ultrawides.

but "locking out" someone is another thing for me as sinar is doing here. locking out means for me that it is impossible for a 3. party to get access to the mount,- as its done with the h3 or with the hy/afi ( for its complex electronic connections ). am not sure if there are patent rights on the mechanical hy connect ( as it was long time on the leica m mount ), but no one said such thing till now.

but, if we like it or not ( and i dont ), the manufactories always tried to "lock out" their competors or at least to make it difficult for them to eat the ready fruits, but to be fair here,- i think sinar has been the most opened manufactor, also in terms of the changeable mounts for its backs.
i always found this a fair and important feature and i used it a lot,- using my backs on gottschalt,contax,hasselblad and sinar m mounts in the last 3 years.
 
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PeterA

Well-known member
Beautiful looking piece of engineering there Thierry! I would place an order today IF Sinar allowed for multiple MFD back adaptors.

Still perhaps it wont take long for someone to reverse engineer the same beautiful and elegant solution, at which time Sinar will produce multiple back adaptors- just like Alpa and Linhof do for example... - patience is everything!

I congratulate Sinar for making such a beautiful and elegant solution.
 

Graham Mitchell

New member
Sinar makes there backs to fit other camera's via a 2 thousand dollar adapter .
Slight exageration. Most of them are €945 at this shop, for example (around $1370): http://shop.strato.de/epages/154932...ries/d_sinarbacks/sinarback_em75/em75_adapter

You want to make money and provide a product exactly like Horseman, Alpa and Cambo than enter that market as a separate entity instead of a back maker.
Maybe, maybe not. Those companies are already serving that market. This is about building a system based on the Hy6 interface, and that platform just became more attractive.

Sinar needs to work out whether it is more profitable long term so sells more of these cameras to everyone at a small profit per unit, or sell a few more complete Hy6-based systems. I can't really blame them for trying to increase market share when so many photographers in North America still think that Leaf and Phase are the only backs makers in the market!

Anyway, I suspect other mounts will be available in time.
 
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Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
I was told 2k but that info maybe wrong I don't know and have not priced them. I totally understand the market share stuff , everyone does that but a open system would also increase that. Depends on what direction a company wants to take. I would prefer going after everyone I can get myself instead of a limited market. I think this product should be a separate entity and compete just like the the Horseman, Cambo and Alpa do for this market share of the business. Now they could make the mount free for there backs but charge a nice adapter fee for others and make even more .
 

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
Just want to add here before all gets lost that I think Rainer should be congratulated on helping out with this product. Well done indeed
 

TRSmith

Subscriber Member
That's a beautiful camera. I love to see the evolution of MF taking this direction. Kudos to everyone involved.
 

David K

Workshop Member
Just want to add here before all gets lost that I think Rainer should be congratulated on helping out with this product. Well done indeed
Agreed, and I'll add my congratulations and admiration. Bravo to all involved... I hope it performs as good as it looks (and I hope it costs less than it looks like it's going to cost :) ).
 
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rainer-v

Guest
Just want to add here before all gets lost that I think Rainer should be congratulated on helping out with this product. Well done indeed
thanks guy.
indeed its great to find a company who listened and discussed things seriously with me and which considered to go ways i suggested from my practical experience.... and not only to look to their ad department or to ask one million opinions till they get so flooded by different sights that nothing could have been realized anymore. a really great experience for me....
i think its a long time ( 20, 30 years ? ) that a camera was made with the active help and input from a working photographer, who wasn't employed by the manufactory and who was not running only against walls. in fact sinar did a great job here as i think going new , and at the same time old , ways.
 

Rethmeier

New member
I'm sure there are lots of skilled tool makers in Korea who can make adapters for this
baby.
Even KaptureGroup from the US could do it.
But first let us wait for the product to be released and get Rainers testing on the way.
Cheers,
Willem.
 

Rethmeier

New member
Quick question for Rainer.
I have a feeling that the 24XL from Schneider wouldn't work with the arTec,as the rear element would be to close to the sensor,that is when you want to use the sliding back!
Correct?
Cheers,
Willem.
 

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
thanks guy.
indeed its great to find a company who listened and discussed things seriously with me and which considered to go ways i suggested from my practical experience.... and not only to look to their ad department or to ask one million opinions till they get so flooded by different sights that nothing could have been realized anymore. a really great experience for me....
i think its a long time ( 20, 30 years ? ) that a camera was made with the active help and input from a working photographer, who wasn't employed by the manufactory and who was not running only against walls. in fact sinar did a great job here as i think going new , and at the same time old , ways.
Yes and i do give Sinar credit for actually working with a pro and help build a product from his point of view than some engineers that never make it to the field to really know how we actually work. Most companies want us to adapt to what they build.

It certainly would be nice to see someone making some adapter plates for this. John you have been tasked. LOL
FYI John makes a lot of leica after market stuff
 
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rainer-v

Guest
Quick question for Rainer.
I have a feeling that the 24XL from Schneider wouldn't work with the arTec,as the rear element would be to close to the sensor,that is when you want to use the sliding back!
Correct?
Cheers,
Willem.
sinar tech dep. said that teoretically the 24xl should work, but very very close to the edge so they cant promise it 100% that there will not happen what you said willem. but in terms of 1/100 mm measures and specs it should work at infinty.

i just can tell you here what the technical dep. by sinar told to me, because of course i insisted here and said its a kind of "must" that the 24xl schneider fits because many prefer it over the 28HR for its price and because its the wider lens.

anyway now, after the announcement of the 23 sinaron, the things look little bit different. after my experience the new lineup of the rodenstocks ( the HR ) is the more modern and better design than the schneiders.
and it has shift possibilities so the f.o.v. will be much wider, if stitchet.

also i personnally expect from lenses on an architecture system to be moveable, and the 24xl is not, or just about 1 - 2 mm.

i know that you posted about your fear that the 23 will show similar distortion than the 28hr, which you think is much. i dont agree here.

1.: the 23 is a new calculation, its not a 28hr on steroids so its distortion will be , at least , different. i would be very sad if much ......:cry:
because this will become a centra llens in the bag of most architecture guys.

2.: i work since years with the 28hr and i never had in practice the problem that distortion became visible in a final shot, even not in the most demanding ones in terms of stitching together images which have a parallel line directly at the frame edge. in that case it becomes visible and you have to treat the image somehow in post.
but the dist. of the 28HR is about 1% and a bit,- which is very good.
i really have a distortion allergy, so i would never work with this lens if it would show up in daily shots.
 
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