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New "arTec" Sinar Architecture Camera

Rethmeier

New member
Rainer,
we have both distortion allergies and discussed the issue before.
Anyway,congratulations on a job well done with the arTec!
I bet your Gottshalt will be on eBay soon?
Also,as you are the first user of the arTec,will yours be "gold plated"?
Just kidding!
Hope to meet you in person one of these days.
I'm in France for six weeks from August.
Regards,
Willem.
 

Rethmeier

New member
O yes,
I forgot!
No centre filter with the Rodenstock HR and you can shoot wide open!
Good for us Sinar back users!
Cheers,
Willem.
 
R

rainer-v

Guest
O yes,
I forgot!
No centre filter with the Rodenstock HR and you can shoot wide open!
Good for us Sinar back users!
Cheers,
Willem.
and sometimes this is so usefull. two weeks ago i had o shoot through a dirty window, no other way to get the shot. i made it with 28HR full open. no dirty window visible...... stopped down to f8 the shot would have been absolutely unusuable. and for every kind of lo light stop you gain 2 stops..... plus the falloff from nthe center filter on the 24xl so it sums up to three or four stops.
but we dont know if all this will be possible on the 23 sinaron too.
 
T

thsinar

Guest
Yes, Jack, you are (partly) right, concerning Alpa and Horseman. But that's not this way when it concerns MF manufacturers like Mamiya, Rolleiflex, Contax, etc ..., where it is and always was the back manufacturer providing a solution.

Bets regards,
Thierry

Hmmm... I assumed for example that Horseman and Alpa made the adapters for the different camera-mounts to fit their bodies? Or am I mistaken and it is the back manufacturers themselves that supply them to those two companies?

Cheers,
 

Hank Graber

New member
Is this an Alpa type camera or is there some electronic interface built in for back and shutter?

The camera is not even out yet so it's a bit early to trash Sinar for lack of adapters for other backs. IF it sells I'm sure there will be a Phase adapter from more then one source (assuming it's like the Alpa with no electronic interface issues).

Found a side view online:

View attachment 5893
 

jlm

Workshop Member
looks to me like it only tilts, no swing, unless you rotate the body (somehow) to get swing, no tilt?
 

Jack

Sr. Administrator
Staff member
Good point John... I'm now seeing a few things with these new pictures that raise a few questions:

1) Am I correct in that it only shifts and tilts while mounted conventionally, and that you have to turn the camera 90 degrees to get Rise and/or swing?

2) If 1 is correct, then there is no way to get rise and tilt or shift and swing at the same times?

3) It also appears it is swing or tilt only and no way to have both combined?

4) Finally, it appears the tripod mount is not centered under with the lens when the lens is zeroed? Wouldn't it be desirable to have it so for nodal (panoramic) stitching?

FTR, I'm not bashing or insulting the camera here. It looks like a stellar concept and built with tyipical Sinar quality. I am just curious about the things above because they are not clear yet from the current posts and images.

Thanks,
 

BJNY

Member
Good point John... I'm now seeing a few things with these new pictures that raise a few questions:

1) Am I correct in that it only shifts and tilts while mounted conventionally, and that you have to turn the camera 90 degrees to get Rise and/or swing?

2) If 1 is correct, then there is no way to get rise and tilt or shift and swing at the same times?

3) It also appears it is swing or tilt only and no way to have both combined?

4) Finally, it appears the tripod mount is not centered under with the lens when the lens is zeroed? Wouldn't it be desirable to have it so for nodal (panoramic) stitching?

FTR, I'm not bashing or insulting the camera here. It looks like a stellar concept and built with tyipical Sinar quality. I am just curious about the things above because they are not clear yet from the current posts and images.

Thanks,
These are all questions I have raised, and am extracting answers for
throughout the original thread at luminous-landscape:
http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=26265
 

Jack

Sr. Administrator
Staff member
Awesome! Perhaps you (or maybe Thierry since it is his thread here) can cross post the answers here when you have them :) And not that any of those limitations would be deal breakers for everybody, but for sure they're items of interest for anybody wanting a camera with "full" movements.

Cheers,
 
T

thsinar

Guest
hi Peter,

thank you for your words, appreciated. We are all proud at Sinar about this new camera and are not shy to say it. Proud also to have worked with Rainer.

we actually don't "forbid" others to make an adapter, as explained by Rainer in his post below. But it is honestly a question also of capacity and "serving" ourselves first. You may be can imagine that there are other works to be done for Photokina: it is around he corner.

Thanks again,
Thierry

Beautiful looking piece of engineering there Thierry! I would place an order today IF Sinar allowed for multiple MFD back adaptors.

Still perhaps it wont take long for someone to reverse engineer the same beautiful and elegant solution, at which time Sinar will produce multiple back adaptors- just like Alpa and Linhof do for example... - patience is everything!

I congratulate Sinar for making such a beautiful and elegant solution.
 
T

thsinar

Guest
Alpa makes the adapters to fit different backs. I am waiting on my Mamiya mount as we speak.
Yes Guy, but Alpa (and Cambo or Horseman or some others) is not the same "type" of company. Rainer has explained that well. Alpa leaves exclusively from selling their cameras.

Here is my issue with this whole thing . Sinar makes there backs to fit other camera's via a 2 thousand dollar adapter .
Recommended list prices for our adapters go from Euro 365.- (adapter eMotion/Hy6) to Euro 1'100.- (Revolving adapter for the Hy6), with an average of Euro 900.-

Than Sinar builds a camera and shuts everyone out.
No, we don't and can' even shut anybody out. We honestly don't even think so far. Why always see bad intentions? We wanted to build a camera, we did it the right way, IMO, by taking a professional to help and guide us, and today we have it. It was already enough work, manpower and time involved to satisfy our needs to make it usable with the eMotion line of backs (and AFi backs). Should we go any further, if we feel a demand and if the capacity is there, then we would obviously and first make adapters for our other backs. And as said, it has always been a back manufacturer's "duty" to provide an adaption for a particular camera platform: WE had to do the adapters for the different Mamiya's, WE had to do the adapters for the H (H1/H2) and V series, WE had to the adapters for all other existing brands, and we STILL have to do adapters for coming new cameras, nobody has asked, nobody has helped, and it is right this way. Why criticize this now?

So we go from a open system of backs to a closed system of Sinar body which is not a standard camera to begin with.
It is by far not a closed system: nobody at Sinar forbids nor puts technical hurdles to any other back manufacturer. This is a pretty strange understanding of a closed system, IMO. I guess "open" or "closed" is very clear, at least in my yes.

So if Sinar wants to make real money here open it up to everyone and sell 500 of them instead of 100. This will not really help them sell more backs. To me this is all wrong, sorry . You want to make money and provide a product exactly like Horseman, Alpa and Cambo than enter that market as a separate entity instead of a back maker.
We do, of course, want to make money. It is even an economical necessity, but not at all "prices". Our first wish is to serve the best possible way the photographers by creating a product which he needs (and which then we will be able to sell). We don't think that we have the capacity to loose ourselves in too many different directions at the same time. What will be possible to do shall be done.

Best regards,
Thierry
 
T

thsinar

Guest
Thanks Hank!

No, there is no electronic interface or whatsoever.

Best regards,
Thierry

Is this an Alpa type camera or is there some electronic interface built in for back and shutter?

The camera is not even out yet so it's a bit early to trash Sinar for lack of adapters for other backs. IF it sells I'm sure there will be a Phase adapter from more then one source (assuming it's like the Alpa with no electronic interface issues).

Found a side view online:

View attachment 5893
 

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
No, we don't and can' even shut anybody out. We honestly don't even think so far. Why always see bad intentions? We wanted to build a camera, we did it the right way, IMO, by taking a professional to help and guide us, and today we have it. It was already enough work, manpower and time involved to satisfy our needs to make it usable with the eMotion line of backs (and AFi backs). Should we go any further, if we feel a demand and if the capacity is there, then we would obviously and first make adapters for our other backs. And as said, it has always been a back manufacturer's "duty" to provide an adaption for a particular camera platform: WE had to do the adapters for the different Mamiya's, WE had to do the adapters for the H (H1/H2) and V series, WE had to the adapters for all other existing brands, and we STILL have to do adapters for coming new cameras, nobody has asked, nobody has helped, and it is right this way. Why criticize this now?

Are you giving the tech specs than to the other back manufactures so they can make a plate for there backs.

Is this not what Alpa, Horseman and Cambo do. My point being is your not building a back here it is different and a different market that competes directly with Alpa, Horseman and Cambo but Sinar is making it exclusive to there backs. I think this is a bad marketing move and that is my opinion like it or not it seems to be the opinion of many. You are building a tech camera and not a back and we all see it as different . That is my point but I know someone will come up with a plate. But i view this completely different than a back maker and or camera maker for there back.

This is a different market and my real question is why Sinar took this route it closes other systems out. No need to answer i really don't care this just keeps doing the same thing Hassy has done to there user base and shuts other backs out on there H3 body and the 28mm lens on the H2 body. It's the same circle
 
T

thsinar

Guest
Jack,
see my answers below:

1) Am I correct in that it only shifts and tilts while mounted conventionally, and that you have to turn the camera 90 degrees to get Rise and/or swing?
No, wrong: you don't have to turn the camera to get rise or swing!

All movements are available a such.

Concerning the tilt/swing movement: this is possible in both directions (combined tilt and swing = double Scheimpflug). The front with the lens board is rotating. Thus an initial tilt of x degrees becomes a combined movement of the sharpness plane when rotating the lens board somewhere between 0° and 90°. At the position 90° the tilt axis becomes the swing axis. So all 3 plane adjustments are possible: single sharpness plane adjustment around the H-axis, single sharpness plane adjustment around the V-axis, and double adjustment of the sharpness plane by using the rotation around the optical axis.

2) If 1 is correct, then there is no way to get rise and tilt or shift and swing at the same times?
The horizontal and vertical shift movements are 2 different and independent movements/knobs, working and moving separately of the rotation of the lens board.

3) It also appears it is swing or tilt only and no way to have both combined?
Wrong: combined tilt and swing for double adjustment of the sharpness plane is possible: see above.

4) Finally, it appears the tripod mount is not centered under with the lens when the lens is zeroed? Wouldn't it be desirable to have it so for nodal (panoramic) stitching?
See answer to the very same question here:

http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=26265&st=60

Post N° 72:

"the 360degree plate in the tripod came in the camera, because we discussed to include this as a little detail, after i brought my tripod to sinar and explained whi i use this strange manfrotto leveller.
i shoot usually with this leveler to get a horizontal platform under the three way head, or under which head i ever use. in this way i can turn round the camera meanwhile i compose and adjust the image without that the horizontal position gets lost.
to integrate this rotary possibility in the camera mount itself means that, one time you have the camera horizintal adjusted e.g. with a three way head, you can turn it around its axe and you dont have to adjust the horizont again. this should be a very practical detail.

of course one can use this feature also for "real" stitched roundshots, but it was not my intention when i asked for this feature
i.m.o. a sliding back camera can never be a perfect roundshot camera platform and it will not be used often for this purpose, but you are right,- smetimes it will be used therefor".

Best regards,
Thierry
 

Jack

Sr. Administrator
Staff member
thanks Thierry -- it all makes sense now on the movements. However, I am a little lost on the swivel base. It's not a big deal, but I am not understanding how the explanation given explains why the lens is off center? I understand the desire for a level in the base, and I understand the desire for it to pan, I just don't understand the benefit to being off center to the lens axis?

Anyway, thank you for the other clarifications -- it looks to be a very nice option for Sinar back shooters :)
 
T

thsinar

Guest
hi Guy,

Not sure if the others need our tech specifications: those are pretty easy to get. It is a mechanical camera. No firmware or electronics involved.

Guy, again, we have nothing against others using our camera for their backs, in the contrary. We simply don't have the capacity right now to take care of such, even if we would want it. There are simply much more important tasks and products to work on currently and in the mid-term.

And it has really NOTHING to do with Hasselblad "closing" their camera to others, really nothing. I say it again, it is not our intention. As said, it is a mechanical camera, anybody can make an adapter. I don't understand where you see the same here: with the Hasselblad H3D, you can't do an adaption for your back, even if you want it "hard".

Best regards,
Thierry

Are you giving the tech specs than to the other back manufactures so they can make a plate for there backs.

Is this not what Alpa, Horseman and Cambo do. My point being is your not building a back here it is different and a different market that competes directly with Alpa, Horseman and Cambo but Sinar is making it exclusive to there backs. I think this is a bad marketing move and that is my opinion like it or not it seems to be the opinion of many. You are building a tech camera and not a back and we all see it as different . That is my point but I know someone will come up with a plate. But i view this completely different than a back maker and or camera maker for there back.

This is a different market and my real question is why Sinar took this route it closes other systems out. No need to answer i really don't care this just keeps doing the same thing Hassy has done to there user base and shuts other backs out on there H3 body and the 28mm lens on the H2 body. It's the same circle
 

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
Let's see what happens when it hits the streets but right now I can't buy it until something is developed for me to use it and that well just kind of sucks to be honest. Yes i like my cake and eat it too. LOL
 

jlm

Workshop Member
i saw this on LL as well, but it sounds like there is only one degree of freedom of tilt/swing movement. The idea seems to be that you can rotate the lens so that the axis of that movement is anywhere from 0 to 90 degrees with respect to the horizon . 0 would be a tilt, 90 would be a swing. It sounds like you are saying that if i picked 45 degrees rotation, i could produce the effect of an equal swing and tilt at the same time? or, say 30 degrees would give more tilt effect than swing effect, for example?
that sounds cumbersome...since the PC lenses allow rotation about the lens axis, i'll have to try it at angles in between 0 and 90 and see how it works.

I'm rooted in the old monorail view camera methodology
 
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