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T
thsinar
Guest
yes John, basically it is as you describe it:
0° (or 180°) position of the lens board = tilt
90° (or 270°) position of the lens board = swing
in-between 0 and 90 all the possible combined tilt and swing angles.
Not so cumbersome if one is used in adjusting a sharpness plane, and the result of each movement can obviously be sen and checked on the groundglass.
Thierry
0° (or 180°) position of the lens board = tilt
90° (or 270°) position of the lens board = swing
in-between 0 and 90 all the possible combined tilt and swing angles.
Not so cumbersome if one is used in adjusting a sharpness plane, and the result of each movement can obviously be sen and checked on the groundglass.
Thierry
PeterA
Well-known member
This is a great camera system designed from the outset to be used in conjunction with a MFD back. Far more elegant and useful than anything from Alpa. The inbuilt tilt/shift capabilities are also more robust, efficient. and elegant. I am happy to see a system like this arrive. It fits perfectly between the Alpa for hand held casual shooting capability and the Linhof 679series for bellows and studio capability - a perfect landscape and architectural set-up.
I love seeing exclent engineering delivering useful and intelligent photographic solutions - again well done!
I love seeing exclent engineering delivering useful and intelligent photographic solutions - again well done!
Hank Graber
New member
Everything involves some compromise. No view view camera could ever approach the rigidity and alignment of an Alpa or this Sinar arTec (no flair from bellows either). The movements might be a bit more cumbersome then the latest Arca Swiss or Sinar monorail rig but it's a much more compact and rigid package. A tradeoff I'd take providing the available movements where suitable for the work I was doing.
lance_schad
Workshop Member
Have to agree it is a sexy design and looks very promising. Until it hits the streets it could change several times with input that is being generated now or be priced out of most of the markets reach. We all do not know.
I am happy to hear it is all mechanical and not electronically integrated, so you can almost certain someone or multiple people will create an adapter (as long as there are not legal reasons they can't) and use it the way you would any "flashsync" type system (ie: horseman, cambo).
Since this is Sinar it is almost certain it will be price premium but top quality.
Maybe they can do the math and say a combined market of all four brnads of backs will actually allow us to sell more of these and make money instead or are we going to only reward out digital back users (or Afi as well) with this camera.
Kudos you have raised more awareness for you brand , which will probably lead to more demos as folks will be curious about the system.
So there are those out there that will wait for this system watch its every developmental step (which I am sure Thierry will keep us all up to date, by the minute
)and wait and wait and wait.
Then there are those who will know that there will always be something around the corner, but there are many solutions that are available today at a known price , with known compatibilities and that they can actually enjoy it / make money immediately.
Again its great to see manufacturers Pre-Announce a product that will be announced officially at Photokina , but I am pleading to ALL the manufacturers, surprise us announce and actually deliver something on time for once. Also let the end users who finally receive their gear(months after promised ship date) use it for a while before you go announce a new product, that gives them buyers remorse or make people just wait and push off their decisions.
We the channel bear the brunt of it.
Yes I am excited and it solves problems, but not right now because it is available ??????
On another note any word on that prototype ARCA I saw a few years ago that was a similar type design?
L
Lance Schad
Capture Integration - Miami/Atlanta
305-394-3196 cell | 305-534-5702 office
Capture Integration
My Blog
[email protected]
I am happy to hear it is all mechanical and not electronically integrated, so you can almost certain someone or multiple people will create an adapter (as long as there are not legal reasons they can't) and use it the way you would any "flashsync" type system (ie: horseman, cambo).
Since this is Sinar it is almost certain it will be price premium but top quality.
Maybe they can do the math and say a combined market of all four brnads of backs will actually allow us to sell more of these and make money instead or are we going to only reward out digital back users (or Afi as well) with this camera.
Kudos you have raised more awareness for you brand , which will probably lead to more demos as folks will be curious about the system.
So there are those out there that will wait for this system watch its every developmental step (which I am sure Thierry will keep us all up to date, by the minute
)and wait and wait and wait. Then there are those who will know that there will always be something around the corner, but there are many solutions that are available today at a known price , with known compatibilities and that they can actually enjoy it / make money immediately.
Again its great to see manufacturers Pre-Announce a product that will be announced officially at Photokina , but I am pleading to ALL the manufacturers, surprise us announce and actually deliver something on time for once. Also let the end users who finally receive their gear(months after promised ship date) use it for a while before you go announce a new product, that gives them buyers remorse or make people just wait and push off their decisions.
We the channel bear the brunt of it.
Yes I am excited and it solves problems, but not right now because it is available ??????
On another note any word on that prototype ARCA I saw a few years ago that was a similar type design?
L
Lance Schad
Capture Integration - Miami/Atlanta
305-394-3196 cell | 305-534-5702 office
Capture Integration
My Blog
[email protected]
PeterA
Well-known member
Lance - seems to me that the whole serious end of photography has succumbed to the 18 month new product cycle. The manufacturers plan their releases to pretty much conform to depreciation schedules of pro shooters - that is why non pro shooters ...- wait. I saved myself $12,000 on the price of my H3d2-39 ( sick of typing that silly name out) LOL..just waiting for the six months window before photokina. Doing same for Epson printer.
T
thsinar
Guest
Dear Lance,
thanks for your praises for this new camera. A few remarks and corrections concerning its annoucement et delivery date/availability, as well as prices:
- my announcement can be taken as an official Sinar announcement. We did not yet have time to put it on our homepage, since summer holidays have started in Switzerland, but expect it to be on within August, with all tech specs (although they have been given by me already). Our main goal was to have it a finished product by June 30th, in which we succeeded.
- The camera is FINISHED and will NOT undergo any change: we simply wait for the LAST in-shooting-conditions feedback from Rainer (and one other photographer) to possibly (not necessarily) improve or modify some small details: we expect to have this done by Photokina, september 23rd '08. It is a purely mechanical product, as such no risk of special "surprises" and delays.
- I have said that it will be available for delivery shortly after Photokina: we believe that this can be hold as well. It is a 100% Sinar product, 100% built in our factory in Switzerland, and as such we have full control over its availability.
- Endusers have already used it, since it was developed a 100% WITH an enduser, one among those having the necessary field experience and background. There is another well-known and successful enduser using it currently.
- I understand your concerns as a dealer as well as your wishes to have products within the promised time: I think Sinar has a proven its credibility for having always delivered what was promised, concerning mechanical products/cameras and accessories.
- Prices will be announced as well within August, but expect them to be slightly higher than any "identical" and existing cameras (Arca RM3D, Alpa XY, ...), depending on the countries.
Best regards,
Thierry
thanks for your praises for this new camera. A few remarks and corrections concerning its annoucement et delivery date/availability, as well as prices:
- my announcement can be taken as an official Sinar announcement. We did not yet have time to put it on our homepage, since summer holidays have started in Switzerland, but expect it to be on within August, with all tech specs (although they have been given by me already). Our main goal was to have it a finished product by June 30th, in which we succeeded.
- The camera is FINISHED and will NOT undergo any change: we simply wait for the LAST in-shooting-conditions feedback from Rainer (and one other photographer) to possibly (not necessarily) improve or modify some small details: we expect to have this done by Photokina, september 23rd '08. It is a purely mechanical product, as such no risk of special "surprises" and delays.
- I have said that it will be available for delivery shortly after Photokina: we believe that this can be hold as well. It is a 100% Sinar product, 100% built in our factory in Switzerland, and as such we have full control over its availability.
- Endusers have already used it, since it was developed a 100% WITH an enduser, one among those having the necessary field experience and background. There is another well-known and successful enduser using it currently.
- I understand your concerns as a dealer as well as your wishes to have products within the promised time: I think Sinar has a proven its credibility for having always delivered what was promised, concerning mechanical products/cameras and accessories.
- Prices will be announced as well within August, but expect them to be slightly higher than any "identical" and existing cameras (Arca RM3D, Alpa XY, ...), depending on the countries.
Best regards,
Thierry
Have to agree it is a sexy design and looks very promising. Until it hits the streets it could change several times with input that is being generated now or be priced out of most of the markets reach. We all do not know.
Since this is Sinar it is almost certain it will be price premium but top quality.
So there are those out there that will wait for this system watch its every developmental step (which I am sure Thierry will keep us all up to date, by the minute
Then there are those who will know that there will always be something around the corner, but there are many solutions that are available today at a known price , with known compatibilities and that they can actually enjoy it / make money immediately.
Again its great to see manufacturers Pre-Announce a product that will be announced officially at Photokina , but I am pleading to ALL the manufacturers, surprise us announce and actually deliver something on time for once. Also let the end users who finally receive their gear(months after promised ship date) use it for a while before you go announce a new product, that gives them buyers remorse or make people just wait and push off their decisions.
We the channel bear the brunt of it.
Yes I am excited and it solves problems, but not right now because it is available ??????
On another note any word on that prototype ARCA I saw a few years ago that was a similar type design?
L
Lance Schad
Capture Integration - Miami/Atlanta
305-394-3196 cell | 305-534-5702 office
Capture Integration
My Blog
[email protected]
lance_schad
Workshop Member
Thierry,
Thanks for the clarifications. Again all sounds great on paper. What would be great is to have feedback from a third - party digital back tester since it is all mechanical and then you would be able to assure the community of compatibility.
Any new equipment to solve current problems out there is warmly welcomed by me.
Lance
D
ddk
Guest
Please excuse my ignorance but what's the advantage/difference or disadvantage between this type of camera and a typical view camera with bellows like the Arca F line or Sinar's p2/p3, aside from the size that is?
david
Good question David, some of us have been shooting larger formats for a while and forget some of the basic concepts.
The simple answer is rigidity, alignment and parallelism of the standards. As you go down in format size, the focal length of lenses required to generate a given FoV (Field of View) also get shorter. As focal lengths get shorter, the amount of lens movement to achieve (or maintain) focus gets reduced.
So by way of example, let's say a 180mm lens on 4x5 film has an allowable focus error of +/- 0.5mm to retain a "crisp" appearing image. On MF digital, we would use an 80mm lens to render the same FoV, but the shorter lens maybe only allows for a focus error of +/- 0.2mm. As one can imagine, if the lens cannot be held to within the tighter tolerance, then you won't get a sharp image across the field. Thus the more rigid and precise the camera is to begin with, the better the final result.
So rigidity and parallelism are why for the most part, not many MF digital shooters are embracing the current selection of view cameras -- with a few exceptions, none are really precise or rigid enough to render optimal output with an MF back.
Cheers,
The simple answer is rigidity, alignment and parallelism of the standards. As you go down in format size, the focal length of lenses required to generate a given FoV (Field of View) also get shorter. As focal lengths get shorter, the amount of lens movement to achieve (or maintain) focus gets reduced.
So by way of example, let's say a 180mm lens on 4x5 film has an allowable focus error of +/- 0.5mm to retain a "crisp" appearing image. On MF digital, we would use an 80mm lens to render the same FoV, but the shorter lens maybe only allows for a focus error of +/- 0.2mm. As one can imagine, if the lens cannot be held to within the tighter tolerance, then you won't get a sharp image across the field. Thus the more rigid and precise the camera is to begin with, the better the final result.
So rigidity and parallelism are why for the most part, not many MF digital shooters are embracing the current selection of view cameras -- with a few exceptions, none are really precise or rigid enough to render optimal output with an MF back.
Cheers,
D
ddk
Guest
Thanks for the reply Jack, but I'm still confused, maybe because I have no experience with large format. I'm about to purchase an F line 6x9 Arca Swiss Compact Metric to use with a Leaf 22. I don't shoot any architecture and a little landscape, my main work is portraiture and nudes, I'm mainly interested in manipulating the depth of field and the background in my images. I'm told to buy the same focal length lenses for the view camera that I use for the MF system, I wonder if this is true. The following are the types of images that I shoot, always on location and never in a studio. Any advice would be much appreciated.
david
and some standard stuff like these
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PSon
Active member
Jack, what are some of the exceptions? I invested heavily in the Rollei X-Act 2 system with every components but have not got the chance to use it yet. I wonder how does the Rollei X-Act 2 compare to the new Sinar arTec system?
Thanks,
-Son
Guy Mancuso
Administrator, Instructor
David have you tried a Tilt and Shift lens for that look. Many folks use them with that effect and certainly would save some money plus be more mobile for you. What body are you shooting with. Harbetial (spelling) sells them for several bodies
D
ddk
Guest
I mostly shoot with my Fuji S5 and Zeiss lenses, though upon discovering Dante's Inferno here got myself a Contax 645 and several DBs.
I've been looking Keith Carter's work again recently (http://www.keithcarterphotographs.com/images-2005.html) and been inspired. I know that I can accomplish some of the same effects with PS but its not the same. I already have a couple of Hartblei's both for the Fuji and the Contax but the optics aren't up to the quality that I want, I'm a Zeiss lens junkie. They have a 45mm T/S lens with Zeiss glass but for one thing its not wide enough and talk about cumbersome, its heavy and very difficult to use, besides the small dark finders of dslrs aren't T/S friendly.
I was thinking of a Lensbaby too but I don't know how it will work out on the Contax.
david
Graham Mitchell
New member
What is the typical minimum focus distance with the arTec?
Hank Graber
New member
Small dark finders are a problem for wide angles on MF sized view cameras as well. I'd start with a used cheap view camera there are tons of really good cheap used cameras to be found before committing a lot of money.
Hartblei has a line of Zeiss MF lenses adapted to tilt shift mounts. They even got rid of the ugly hexagons in the Zeiss 120/4 by going to more blades in the aperture. http://www.hartblei.eu/
The image circle is not big enough for your back though. They are geared to 35mm DSLR's.
E
ericstaud
Guest
Hi Graham,
The helical focus mounts are made by the lens manufacturer. In the case of a 35mm Schneider digitar for instance, you have the same focuser weather you buy that lens for an Alpa, Cambo, or other plate camera. The only real difference is the camera manufacturers mounting board. You can get the minimum focus distances for the HR and Digitar lenses off the Alpa site. I will bet the numbers will be the same on the Sinar. Alpa does have some extension tubes, and I would think that Sinar would come out with some eventually too.
D
ddk
Guest
I have seen and handled them, the 45 is the only one that gets close to the fl that I need and its big & heavy, I might have bought it for the dslr if I could see what I was doing in the finder.
I've been looking at view cameras for a little while now, not many make a 6x9 that takes the Contax mount, my first choice was a Technikarden.
david
Hi David:
Yes, you would buy the same or at least similar focal lengths to what you are already using for MF if you are shooting MF on a view camera. THe difference between shoot MF view and 4X5 view is only one of the smaller formats needing more precision for comparable image quality.
Cheers,