Is buying a 55K camera justifiable... in the name of hobby?

[GASC]

Strictly commercially, for commercial, this gear is overpriced. For almost the same amount you can get an Arri Alexa!!! (and quite frankly it's another peice of electronic...)

and Red gear, by margin!

I could get much more money in return (I mean much more) with the Arri investment than with any of these backs, past present and future.

But this is not rational. If you are hobbyist or art photographer and print big for galleries, this is IMO a logical investment.

Go for it. Without hobbyists we would not have MF alternative today.

 

[lowep]

arri alternative

if you don't like Arri here is another option you could go for instead

 

[Jim2]

Go for it. Without hobbyists we would not have MF alternative today.

Well.... a lot of people are saying this... but the problem is that even with the (presumably) 'increased' demands due to the hobbyists, Phase One gear prices aren't getting any cheaper... in fact it seems to get more expensive (IQ180 being more expensive than P65+, although depending on how you look at it... IQ160 is cheaper than P65+ used to be).

 

[Jim2]

Re: arri alternative

if you don't like Arri here is another option you could go for instead

:ROTFL: That's the funniest thing I've seen lately!

I can't imagine hiking up a mountain for 6 hours carrying the Arri in my backpack!

 

[GASC]

Re: arri alternative

:ROTFL: That's the funniest thing I've seen lately!

I can't imagine hiking up a mountain for 6 hours carrying the Arri in my backpack!

That's where you do a wrong calculation Jim.

With the money earned with the Arri, you won't have to carry it, an assistant would do it for you. :toocool:

About the i.phone tele...they really don't know what more silly gadgetery to invent nowdays...

 

[Guy Mancuso]

Well.... a lot of people are saying this... but the problem is that even with the (presumably) 'increased' demands due to the hobbyists, Phase One gear prices aren't getting any cheaper... in fact it seems to get more expensive (IQ180 being more expensive than P65+, although depending on how you look at it... IQ160 is cheaper than P65+ used to be).

I would not expect that to change. Not going to get into details here but talking to dealers and Phase themselves they enjoying very high sales numbers on the IQ and have already surpassed there projected numbers. That will not bring prices down. So no matter what we think is expensive if sales are acting more like these things are sale bargains and having large sales that are going with them than I guess the price is correct for the market. Yea i know does not make it cheaper for us the end users and does not give us any bargain pricing. In the end though we will benefit from a company that keeps moving forward and bringing us new product which they have a lot on there roadmaps. You always want to invest in a healthy financial company. So yes there is some good news in all of this. Obviously Phase can use a new body and more lenses so this gives them the revenue to push forward on all of that. I know that sounds like a marketing tool but not meant to be. It's just reality

 

[GASC]

I would not expect that to change. Not going to get into details here but talking to dealers and Phase themselves they enjoying very high sales numbers on the IQ and have already surpassed there projected numbers. That will not bring prices down. So no matter what we think is expensive if sales are acting more like these things are sale bargains and having large sales that are going with them than I guess the price is correct for the market. Yea i know does not make it cheaper for us the end users and does not give us any bargain pricing. In the end though we will benefit from a company that keeps moving forward and bringing us new product which they have a lot on there roadmaps. You always want to invest in a healthy financial company. So yes there is some good news in all of this. Obviously Phase can use a new body and more lenses so this gives them the revenue to push forward on all of that. I know that sounds like a marketing tool but not meant to be. It's just reality

I think you hit the point Guy. Those are the market price and there is a demand and everybody is cuying.

I understand the MF manufacturers. They had to go chasing the largest format film resolution and I will never complain about more megapixels on the plate. We all benefit from it.

I'm not sure all the chain involved is at the level expected for making those backs really workflow-fast but it will be the case very soon we know it.

As a working tool, it is totally overpriced. Don't get me wrong, for a pro structure it's okay. It's overpriced in the context of what the clients-market needs evolve. I pointed the Arri example because it is unbeleivable that a high-end back is priced the same as the Arri body when we all know that the relation investment-incomes is largely in favor of the Red or Arri kind of gear. If I'm talking about those in the context of MF stills is not a mistake. For most of us it is now part of the equation.

Now, if MF manufacturers are earning money with those backs, and they need incomes, it is a good news, whatever are the target, hobbyists, pros, collectors etc...We want them to be part of the game.

But soon or later, they will have to bring on the table something more than megapixel and top still quality at top price.

 

[Guy Mancuso]

I agree the backs are 1st class. Now lets see a first class body to go with it and I know many Phase shooters want the same thing as i do. That is not a negative comment either it is more to get there checks and balances in place with the complete system package. I did not buy bits and pieces nor did anyone else. We came into buying systems and as a working Pro I don't mind spending the money but I do want precision instruments to help me make money. But irregardless of Pro or Hobbyist we are all searching for the holy grail. It may never ever get there but I would like to be damn close. With the new Schneiders and the new IQ's I say a great start now get us close to the finish line. I have been through so many systems and so much wasted energy, time and money getting here and I may add many others as well that we really want to be blown away on whats next and obtainable. We certainly do NOT need more than 80 mpx tops. Trust me it is amazing the detail and the human eye shooting can't see any of it but the back can but after that we are done. 80 is enough and maybe too much for many so lets move on somewhere else in the technology.

 

[GASC]

We agree Guy. I think that with 80 they reached maturity in terms of resolution and probably pushed to whatever was possible with CCD. It seems that moiré is well under control.

Maybe they will go to 120MP, but indeed, from there we need their engineers now working on different tech. Hope Raw video will show-up and less computer dependence. I'd really love to be able to control those backs with a Marshall monitor in live view. There, they could sell them 60K it would be completly justified because it would be profit-making.

 

[doug]

what is SWMBO?

She Who Must Be Obeyed.

 

[dick]

We certainly do NOT need more than 80 mpx tops. Trust me it is amazing the detail and the human eye shooting can't see any of it but the back can but after that we are done. 80 is enough and maybe too much for many so lets move on somewhere else in the technology.

5 * 4 film was enough for most people most of the time, but there were a few photographers who needed 10 * 8 for more detail... I think that I will make do with 60Mpx or 50 MS... but at the garden center I was at today there were some really awful 8ft * 15ft (garden) photographs that looked awful from 15 feet, and were crying out for a high-res camera.

Maybe the 200Mpx cameras will be expensive, professional, specialist cameras that you might do without?

...but will "they" make anything they cannot sell in volume? ...and what the MF industry calls volume is not the same as what CaNikon calls volume.

 

[Guy Mancuso]

You can stitch 3 shots or so as well with the 180 back. Not sure I want to say that out loud with my computer listening. LOL

 

[dick]

You can stitch 3 shots or so as well with the 180 back. Not sure I want to say that out loud with my computer listening. LOL

What image circle would you need for 3 * 180?

 

[dougpeterson]

What image circle would you need for 3 * 180?

Schneider 43mm XL, 47mm XL or 120mm would fit three horizontal IQ180 frames stacked vertically (for a tall vertical pano strip). It would also fit three vertical IQ180 images stacked horizontally (for a wide landscape pano) but it would require 30mm of movement of shift left/right to do the wide-pano which only a few of the tech cameras have.

Doug Peterson (e-mail Me)
__________________

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[Jim2]

You can stitch 3 shots or so as well with the 180 back. Not sure I want to say that out loud with my computer listening. LOL

LOL time to upgrade your computer Guy! What do you use right now?

6 or 12 core mac pro, 32-64GB RAM, 3xSATA3 (or SAS) RAID0 would probably help there...

 

[dougpeterson]

FYI an IQ180 three-image stitch with 10mm of frame overlap using a Schneider 43mm XL would be the same field of view as a 17mm on a 5DII or other full frame dSLR.

 

[Jim2]

Schneider 43mm XL, 47mm XL or 120mm would fit three horizontal IQ180 frames stacked vertically (for a tall vertical pano strip). It would also fit three vertical IQ180 images stacked horizontally (for a wide landscape pano) but it would require 30mm of movement of shift left/right to do the wide-pano which only a few of the tech cameras have.

Doug, thanks for this diagram! It's great! For landscape photography, scenarios:

- If I were to pick just 2 lenses which would you recommend
- If I were to pick just 3 lenses which would you recommend (this is getting on the heavy side - prefer to get away with just 2 lenses for hiking)

My idea would be:
- for 2 lenses: 43mm xl (if I need wider, I will stitch)
- 120mm (also stitch if needed)

For 3 lens combo:
- 43, 120, 210

Comments?

Oh do you have the data on the weights of these lenses?
I downloaded a pdf of apo-digitar lenses and it doesn't list 43mm - only 47mm which is 300 grams
120mm = 255g
210mm/6.8 = 420g

 

[David Duffin]

You can stitch 3 shots or so as well with the 180 back. Not sure I want to say that out loud with my computer listening. LOL

Guy, from the looks of this Death Valley 5-image "focus stitch" you did, your machine loves to exercise her SDRAM...

 

[dougpeterson]

If you're working with us on your gear selection one of things our salesmen can do is show you how wide each lens would be with a single shot or 2/3/4/9 frame stitching so that you know how many effective focal lengths and what total range of effective lengths you'd have based on that selection. We can also generate custom diagrams like the one you see above for your specific back and lenses, including limitations for any given camera body. These are tools we've invested a lot of time to create, refine, and understand (both in theory and in practice).

My favorite lens is the 47XL or 43XL (being very similar lenses). If I were to pick two lenses it would be the 47mm and a backup 47mm .

In all seriousness the 47XL covers a LOT of needs. A Schneider 120mm or Schneider 90mm would make an excellent companion with a Rodenstock 23mm HR (large but better) or Schneider 24XL being a third lens if needed.

Doug Peterson (e-mail Me)
__________________

Head of Technical Services, Capture Integration
Phase One Partner of the Year
Leaf, Leica, Cambo, Arca Swiss, Canon, Apple, Profoto, Broncolor, Eizo & More

National: 877.217.9870 *| *Cell: 740.707.2183
Newsletter | RSS Feed
Buy Capture One 6 at 10% off

 

[Guy Mancuso]

Guy, from the looks of this Death Valley 5-image "focus stitch" you did, your machine loves to exercise her SDRAM...

Hi David

FYI David was with me last week when I was the instructor at PODAS Death Valley. David shoots with Alpa and currently a P65+ which will change to the IQ 180. He also owns a Arca RM2D but prefers the Alpa more. Anyway not to go to far off topic here but it is important to point out processing the IQ 180 files is not bad at all as C1 has really improved there raw processing speed in the latest version.

Case in point I do NOT have a Mac Pro. Believe it or not my main machine is a 2011 MacBook Pro Quad core 2.3 with two SSD drives one running at Sata 3 speeds and 8gb of ram.

Now this machine is actually twice as fast as the dual core when it comes to C1 and processing. C1 is a core sucking pig. LOL

Seriously it loves cores and the more you can throw at it the better but just getting to Quad Cores is amazingly fast. So I can process a IQ 180 file in about 10 -14 seconds depending on what is applied. Obviously faster with my P40+ but still very good with the big backs. My only real limitation is Ram at 8gb so that will be upgraded to 16gb on a laptop if you can believe it.

Now CS5 needs and loves Ram so that is where more my issues are with the big IQ 180 files pushing them around.

Helicon focus with this 5 shot focus stack with the 180 just blows right through it in less than 2 minutes which is very fast putting that together.

Bottom line here folks you can get by with a good laptop and sure a MacPro will blow through this stuff but it is not as critical as it once was.

Now don't get me wrong a 2011 quad core with a sata 3 SSD and 16gb of ram is not McDonalds pricing at all but it will get the job done. Total to really max out the new MBP quads about 4500-5k. But it is portable. LOL