Kodak 50MP sensor

[fotografz]

Prediction:

Historically, (and I have no inside knowledge this is the case now, just speaking from years of marketing experience) the weakest new product to market usually knows it and tries to offset that by speaking first -- IOW if yours aint the best, get as big a head start as you can... That said, both Phase and Leaf have been inordinately silent in response to the Hassy 50MP announcement, so I suspect to hear something at least equal to and quite probably even more impressive when they do finally speak.

What that is, I have no idea, but I would say the two "biggest" deals in our current MF world would be 1) a "bigger, faster or both" back and 2) a "lower cost or entry level" back...

Cheers,

Does that headstart theory apply to the Phase One/Mamiya camera announced some time ago but only shipping now Jack?

If 50 meg sporting new imaging technology is the weakest news, all I can say is WOW! ... we are in for retina separating acceleration of MF developments.

I think these companies are in a new age of marketing where interest has to be pre-gauged for small scale production purposes due to olympian outside costs.

At this point of MF development I know quite a few shooters that are tapped out ... me being one of them. My lowly 39 meg will have to do for awhile unless the ecomomy picks up and business improves.

 

[Guy Mancuso]

Jack and My Phase body will be here Friday on schedule which initially was announced July for deliveries when it was released to the press.

 

[Uaiomex]

Yes, it could be that there is another larger sensor in the cooking. It could be a 56mm square sensor to fit the Hy6/Afi or just true 645.
If money is no object, I'd prefer a 56 square, but a smaller rectangle would be less expensive.
If someone would ask me and money IS object, I would be fascinated with a 4:5 ratio sensor (of course, within a revolving back). It would be like shooting with a downscaled super hi-tec Mamiya Rz!!!!
Why this format? - Well, in my years of heavy portrait studio shooting, I loved the Hassy 500Cm because the square allowed for some unintented leaning of the sitter. I never had to re-position my V camera. 4:5 ratio would allow generous sitter leaning too. One thing less to worry, now that with digital right focus is a lot more critical.
So, my vote goes for a new 45X56mm sensor. the H system gets screwed. Ho, ho,ho.
Eduardo

Prediction:

Historically, (and I have no inside knowledge this is the case now, just speaking from years of marketing experience) the weakest new product to market usually knows it and tries to offset that by speaking first -- IOW if yours aint the best, get as big a head start as you can... That said, both Phase and Leaf have been inordinately silent in response to the Hassy 50MP announcement, so I suspect to hear something at least equal to and quite probably even more impressive when they do finally speak.

What that is, I have no idea, but I would say the two "biggest" deals in our current MF world would be 1) a "bigger, faster or both" back and 2) a "lower cost or entry level" back...

Cheers,

 

[David Klepacki]

Hi Marc,

Yes, your math is a little off, but your conclusions remain correct.

Your numbers assume that the pixels are the same size in all three cases, which is not correct (and the sensors are not exactly the same in area either).

Your values would be correct if the pixel sizes and sensor sizes were the same value for each of those image sizes. The correction is relatively minor, and if we standardize to the resolution of the 31MP print, the correct values would be:

31MP image: 21.6 x 16.2 (inches)
39MP image: 23.4 x 17.5 (inches)
50MP image: 26.5 x 19.9 (inches)

And for kicks, a hypothetical sensor of size 56mm x 42mm would compare as follows:
For 7.2 micron pixels (45MP): 25.2 x 18.9 (inches)
For 6.8 micron pixels (50MP): 26.7 x 20.0 (inches)
For 6.4 micron pixels (57MP): 28.3 x 21.3 (inches)
For 6.0 micron pixels (65MP): 30.2 x 22.7 (inches)

David

 

[PeterA]

Development shouldnt be confined to megapixel count - this is a dumb game.
Give me better autofocus, image stabilisation and data management thank you.

 

[David K]

Development shouldnt be confined to megapixel count - this is a dumb game.
Give me better autofocus, image stabilisation and data management thank you.

Couldn't agree with you more Peter, and I assure you there's not a drop of sour grapes in my glass. Let me add an item to your list... an LCD that rivals or surpasses that in the Nikon D3. That would be something to crow about. I can understand the megapixel marketing in the prosumer category... a lot of those folks judge cameras simply on that basis. But in the MFDB arena the target market is much more sophisticated as well as both vocal and articulate about the kind of improvements they would like to see... and, IMHO, more megapixels isn't it.

 

[David Klepacki]

I couldn't agree more about the need for better usability features like autofocus and IS. However, if a manufacturer is going to properly support their ultra-wide lenses, then the additional megapixels make sense and are indeed beneficial. The perspective of these ultra-wide lenses "push" things much farther away and so more pixels are needed to resolve those "smaller" objects. For landscape shooters using such lenses, or even architectural photographers who print large enough, it can make the difference between sharp and blurred details.

Personally, I am hoping to see a 56mm wide sensor someday soon, regardless of the number of megapixels, in order to get the wider field of view that my lenses have to offer. I would rather see a 56x42 or even better a 56x45 size sensor rather than the less wide 48x48 square that is being predicted...but David, I understand your point of view....more megapixels is not required for shooting half-naked models

 

[fotografz]

I couldn't agree more about the need for better usability features like autofocus and IS. However, if a manufacturer is going to properly support their ultra-wide lenses, then the additional megapixels make sense and are indeed beneficial. The perspective of these ultra-wide lenses "push" things much farther away and so more pixels are needed to resolve those "smaller" objects. For landscape shooters using such lenses, or even architectural photographers who print large enough, it can make the difference between sharp and blurred details.

Personally, I am hoping to see a 56mm wide sensor someday soon, regardless of the number of megapixels, in order to get the wider field of view that my lenses have to offer. I would rather see a 56x42 or even better a 56x45 size sensor rather than the less wide 48x48 square that is being predicted...but David, I understand your point of view....more megapixels is not required for shooting half-naked models

I tend to agree with this. I'd especially like to see what this new sensor can do on my Rollei Xact2 with the Rodenstock and Schneider Digital lenses. Might be worth renting one once it's available.

There is a decent rumor that Hasselblad has saved the real news for Photokina ... a 56X45 back. If the new Kodak sensor technology is employed it will be more than 50 meg. We'll just have to wait and see.

However, like Peter and others, I could care less about even more megs, or quite frankly even a true 645 sensor. I would be far more interested in multi-point AF and higher ISO performance in a 31 meg H camera to better replace a 35mm DSLR ... if I could do away with the need for a DSLR I could even afford to upgrade to a new 31 meg H3D-III/31

My second unwavering desire is for a H focal plane body. That would seal the deal and complete the H system. I personally am not interested in one ot two leaf shutter lenses, I need all of them to be leaf shutters ... however, being able to use all the same lenses on a focal plane body would further eliminate the need for a DSLR.

Are you listening Hasselbald? If you want to recruit even more sales from DSLR users bring forth the H focal plane camera body. 1/6000th shutter would be nice :thumbup:

(I'm hoping that if I say it enough times and loud enough it'll happen :ROTFL

 

[LJL]

Hey, Marc....I am completely with your wishes on these things. If Hassy could drop a focal plane shutter body into their H3Dxx mix, that would take all the glass, adapters, and backs in that line, it would be closer to nirvana, I think. I am with you on wanting to use one set of glass, rather than have separate or special "leaf shutter" lenses for use on a focal plane body. (In reality, it is not that different, but if one has a Phase/Mamiya body, they might be doubling up on lenses to shoot leaf shutter needs. That is not any different from Hassy putting out a separate focal plane body, but the idea of being able to use their existing leaf shutter lenses on it is the way to go at this point.)

However we get there, let's just get there. And the other things you mentioned....higher ISO, multi-point AF, etc......all higher on MY list of things to start to completely replace the DSLRs. MP are enough already, but the other things are way behind.

LJ

 

[David Klepacki]

Well Marc, I have to get equal time for Sinar. The biggest shortcoming of the Hy6 is also the lack of a focal plane shutter....

Are you listening Sinar? If you want to recruit even more sales from ALL users bring forth a Hy6 focal plane camera body. 1/8000th shutter would also be nice :thumbup:

 

[fotografz]

So, my vote goes for a new 45X56mm sensor. the H system gets screwed. Ho, ho,ho.
Eduardo

... gets screwed. Ho, Ho, Ho. (A post from Santa Claus ????)

Just curious, how would a true 645 digital sensor "screw" a 645 camera system? The HC 28mm would be cropped 1.1X, but all other lenses from 35mm to 300mm are full coverage 645 ... and all the 500 series Zeiss lenses from 30mm to 500mm can be used full 645. The H cameras are true 645. I shoot 120 film with one.

Odd.

 

[Stuart Richardson]

I am just curious as to how much a 56x56mm sensor on a Sinar or Leaf would cost. If the 33mp, sub 645 sensors are circa 36000 (with camera), how much would the 56x56 be? 50,000? 60000? Does that include undercoating and heated leather seats?

 

[PeterA]

I am going to start the anti-megapixel party.

 

[Uaiomex]

Simple, a 45X56 mm sensor won't fit in any 645 camera. 645 cameras can take only 41.5X56 mm sensors or smaller.
Kid, behave
Love
Santa.

Re: Kodak 50MP sensor
Quote:
Originally Posted by Uaiomex
So, my vote goes for a new 45X56mm sensor. the H system gets screwed. Ho, ho,ho.
Eduardo

... gets screwed. Ho, Ho, Ho. (A post from Santa Claus ????)

Just curious, how would a true 645 digital sensor "screw" a 645 camera system? The HC 28mm would be cropped 1.1X, but all other lenses from 35mm to 300mm are full coverage 645 ... and all the 500 series Zeiss lenses from 30mm to 500mm can be used full 645. The H cameras are true 645. I shoot 120 film with one.

Odd.

 

[thsinar]

... am joining as vice-chairman!

Thierry

I am going to start the anti-megapixel party.

 

[yaya]

I am just curious as to how much a 56x56mm sensor on a Sinar or Leaf would cost. If the 33mp, sub 645 sensors are circa 36000 (with camera), how much would the 56x56 be? 50,000? 60000? Does that include undercoating and heated leather seats?

Maybe the bigger question is, if it WAS 60,000 and came with heated leather seats, would YOU BUY ONE?

 

[Natasa Stojsic]

Maybe the bigger question is, if it WAS 60,000 and came with heated leather seats, would YOU BUY ONE?

instead of heated leather seats.... hy6 and set of lenses:thumbup:
Amex/Master Card/Visa/Cash?

 

[woodyspedden]

I tend to agree with this. I'd especially like to see what this new sensor can do on my Rollei Xact2 with the Rodenstock and Schneider Digital lenses. Might be worth renting one once it's available.

There is a decent rumor that Hasselblad has saved the real news for Photokina ... a 56X45 back. If the new Kodak sensor technology is employed it will be more than 50 meg. We'll just have to wait and see.

However, like Peter and others, I could care less about even more megs, or quite frankly even a true 645 sensor. I would be far more interested in multi-point AF and higher ISO performance in a 31 meg H camera to better replace a 35mm DSLR ... if I could do away with the need for a DSLR I could even afford to upgrade to a new 31 meg H3D-III/31

My second unwavering desire is for a H focal plane body. That would seal the deal and complete the H system. I personally am not interested in one ot two leaf shutter lenses, I need all of them to be leaf shutters ... however, being able to use all the same lenses on a focal plane body would further eliminate the need for a DSLR.

Are you listening Hasselbald? If you want to recruit even more sales from DSLR users bring forth the H focal plane camera body. 1/6000th shutter would be nice :thumbup:

(I'm hoping that if I say it enough times and loud enough it'll happen :ROTFL

Marc

As you know I am a newbie to the Hassy system So far so good as the files are incredible. However I am with you on the need for a focal plane shutter H body! I refuse to sell my Hassy 110 2.0 as it is the best portrait lens I have ever owned (and I have a mint copy of the Contax/Zeiss 85 1.2 50 Jahre!) Sad that I cant use that, or any other FE lens on the H3DII body as it depends on the lens having a leaf shutter.

I really feel that having both Leaf capability and Focal Plane capability is a must in today's MF world. Phase/mamiya already have the focal plane capability and keep hinting they will have some leaf shutter lenses soon. When they do they will put Hassy in a competitive disadvantage which Hassy MUST respond to with a Focal Plane body.

I believe Hassy has done a great job providing things like the V to H adapter so that the investment many of their clients had made in V lenses was preserved! Good for you Hassy. Now complete the job and allow FE lenses to be used with H bodies. PLEASE!!!!!

Woody

 

[s.agar]

Just to clarify, the new 50MP Kodak sensor is not 645, it's only 49x37mm. If Dalsa did release a 645 chip (56x42mm), it would be a step up and great news.

I have seen the data sheet that you have referred. Seeing the 6m pixel size makes one think that, in order to fit the 50MP in the 49X37mm area, they had to make the pixels smaller.

Wouldn't it be theoretically possible to use 9m pixels in a true FF (56X42mm) in this 50MP sensor? Higher ISO and theoretically less noise, with same number and design for other data gathering and processing hardware.

Or is there a DX type of preference also in the MF cameras, as once was the case in 35mm? (Nikon simply was not able to make a FF, and had to go tyhat way in real facts).

The other question is: Who would want a 50 MP camera, while even 31MP is good enough for everything. Or isn't it?

I have tested the H3DII-31 this weekend, and still can't believe my eyes. There's so much resolution, that it hurts the eyes. Any size prints can be made (my max is 40X60cm). All other parameters like correct color, good DR, excellent 800 ISO performance are there. Excellent film like results..

That's why I wondered why one should pay twice the money for 50MP? (Note that I'm not professional photographer. I may not be fully awarw,e of professional's requirements, but can't think of any). The other problem may be the lenses, as it seemed to me..

Seyhun

Image from Dalyan/Turkey, to show the correct colors, especially Red's in the flag, and the greens. No retouching at all, except for histogram ajjustment to make DR less. In the background are the ancient tombs in the mountain.

Seyhun

 

[David K]

Well Marc, I have to get equal time for Sinar. The biggest shortcoming of the Hy6 is also the lack of a focal plane shutter....

Are you listening Sinar? If you want to recruit even more sales from ALL users bring forth a Hy6 focal plane camera body. 1/8000th shutter would also be nice :thumbup:

David,
Don't be greedy... just use your Contax 645 body and you've got more than most

Woody,
Agree completely with your assessment of the Hassy 110 f/2 FE (as I'm sure you know). I use mine with the Mam-1 (or Son's) adapter on my Contax 645. One of these days I'll get around to comparing it with the Rollei 110 f/2 to see if there's any noticeable difference between them.