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Torn between Pentax 645d and IQ + RM3di

J

Jim2

Guest
Taking the initial cost out of the equation.... I'm still torn between these two. I like the idea that Pentax 645d is weather sealed and in my mind I'll have more 'freedom' and 'carefree' experience with it, firstly I would not care as much about trashing a 10K camera vs a 40K back, secondly it's designed as weather sealed so I'll have more confidence in using it in harsh environment without worrying about dust / water vapour getting on to the sensor / lens, etc.

On the other hand, I think Phase + rm3di will give me a more 'compact' kit, although I'm not sure about the weight which is also of prime importance.

Last but not least, there's the resolution - 80mp vs 40 - not sure how important that would be.
 

Terry

New member
Well there is an IQ140 back which is same resolution. The two are so different. If weight is a major consideration can you give more details of your planned use? Backpacking? Day trips? Wide or tele? this will help narrow down the lens selection to compare both kits.
 

fotografz

Well-known member
Trashing? Buy Insurance and go make images.

Weather Proofing is nice, but ever wonder how the heck all these outdoor landscapes got shot before weather sealed cameras?

Isn't the IQ fairly well sealed anyway?

Not many newer Pentax lenses, and I doubt the legacy lenses are sealed. Plus, no MFD protects against dusk getting in the front hole when you change lenses ... they are all equal in that way.

40 verses 80? Importance depends on end use ... plus, the 40 is a crop sensor and the 60/80 aren't, so keep that in mind regarding focal length coverage, etc.

The 645D means no tech camera even if you change your mind later. Conversely, if you get an IQ and tech camera, you can add a DSLR later if you want.

-Marc
 

tsjanik

Well-known member
Jim2:

I've had the 645D since December and love the camera. No experience with other MFD, so no comments there. In the 4 months I've had the camera, no dust on the sensor. The 645D has an ultrasonic cleaner that activates each time the camera is turned on. There is also an adhesive strip to collect the dislodged dust. Seems to work. Lens availabilty is an issue, but many used ones are available and new lenses are in stock in Asia and Europe. Lenses range from 600mm to 25mm, very extensive for a MF system. The 645D handles much like a 35mm DSLR and weighs about 6 ounces more than a D3x. The lenses themselves are quite compact (for MF), about the same size as the Canon 35mm counterparts.

Tom
 

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
When you buy a IQ you should also buy the DF and 80 lens as the discount is huge. Also this gives you two systems to work with the DF system and the Alpa/Arca system.

Weather sealing is a BS gimmick sorry. Get a rain jacket for 30 dollars. Count how many landscape Hassy, Phase, Leaf and Sinar shooters are out in the world shooting amazing landscapes. None of them have weather sealing but all of them find a work around to get the job done.

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/602711-REG/Vortex_Media_P_SJ_M_B_Pro_SLR_Storm_Jacket.html

The one issue that NEVER gets addressed here is software. All back OEM's have there software programs extremely fine tuned to there systems. Hassy, Sinar , Leaf and Phase all have programs that get the absolute most out of there software/sensor combination. NOBODY can beat that. People simply do not understand how important this is when you want the most out of your system.

Now 40,60,80. Pick your poison i shoot them all and after 20x30 is about the only time you will see a difference in print. But any Arca/Alpa offers you flat stitching so anytime you need planet size you can turn to that as well. I do it with my P40+ on a pan a lot. That is 3 40 mpx shots which is 120 mpx gross image than stitched down to about 90 mpx. So I can take my lowly P40 sensor and make hay with it.
 

D&A

Well-known member
(Please Note: Text has been revamped and edited)

Hi Jim,

Although I've had some experience shooting with some of the older models of Hasselblads with digital backs, I certainly wouldn't be qualified to make any sort of comprehensive comparison or statement of the relative advantages/disadvantages between the two systems, especially in regards to your particular uses nor comparison of performance. With that said, I have though been intensely working the Pentax 645D and multiple samples (in one problematic case over 10) of almost all of their single focal length FA Af lenses and some of their FA zooms. It's been a case of beg, borrow and ..um...purchase (instead of the proverbial steal) to be able to do a sort of controlled comprehensive testing of these lens samples and also get a feel for the 645D body. If I can just find the time to finish up with some recent samples and also find time in work schedule, I hope to eventually post my observations, which is not meant to be any sort of definitive statement, just my own experiences with all these lenses.

Let me just say the 645D body has been bullet proof in most users hands. I haven't yet heard of a single case of mechanical trouble or glitches, but that's not to say there haven't been. As for dust, as Tom has pointed out, it's remarkable but I havn't noticed any, even in the most recent images taken at f16 and at closest focusing distance. Whatever Pentax employed really works! Some performance characteristics can certainly be improved upon, but one has to keep in mind the price point of this camera. Others have taken it in some "more extreme" weather conditions than I have and one regular contributor here on Getdpi I often talk with, mentioned he with was impressed when using it in cold wet weather, on how his 645D performed. This I believe is in contrast to his previously owned Hassiblad/digial back system, where he had issues with fogging and possibly some other things of concern. I don't want to speak for him or any others (and I'm sure he'll chime in)) and in addition, this is not at a commentary on any other system performance...just an observation.

What I can say, is with the Pentax system of already existing previous released FA lenses, which are all out of production but can be found, that if one plans on shooting at f11-f13 (generally the sweet spot for many lenses), then individual lens sample selection isn't quite as critical. Most perform well at these apertures. If you are though like me, who often has the need or desire to shoot at wider apertures, then the variability observed in some focal length lens samples that the Pentax 645 system offered, can be quite substantial and greatly affect ones decision to go ahead with the system. This of course depends on how much testing of lenses one wants to do, to find a sample that meets expectations and is usable, especially if output to large format prints are desired.

My testing has been restricted to only the FA AF lenses. In one case that I've been made aware of, a particular Pentax "A" manual focus lens, which is the counterpart to a Pentax FA Af lens (both having slightly different optical designs), may actually overcome some of the issues often seen with that particular FA lens. My point is that there are alternatives if using manual focus lenses is also acceptable to the 645D user. When a given lens does perform as expected, the results are exceptional and although all previous FA lenses are not weather sealed, as Marc and Guy have correctly pointed out, good techniques and preparedness is the key to shooting in most any condition...otherwise we wouldn't have a plethera of unbelievable shots during the most extreme conditions and those cameras/lenses surviving for future days of shooting.

Of course with last years release of the WR 55 f2.8 (decent performer for the most part but far from perfect) and the newely released WR 25mm lens, these are water resistant lenses that match the body in terms of weather resistance, and it's nice if if becomes necessary, to be able to quickly take their cameras out for impromptu shooting without much concern for rain/snow etc.type conditions. It's only in these impromptu situations, that having WR is sort of nice, otherwise preparedness is really the key and using any system is possible. I presume it's WR is much like the Leica's S2 system, in that regard. Thanks!

Dave
 
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PeterL

Member
....
On the other hand, I think Phase + rm3di will give me a more 'compact' kit, although I'm not sure about the weight which is also of prime importance.
If weight is of prime importance, think about the Alpa TC and the compact Schneider lenses. The TC with handgrip is 326g and a 35mmXL is 319g, add to that the Phase back at approx. 600g and you're at about 1.2kg. It does not get much lighter or compact.

Cheers, -Peter
 

KeithL

Well-known member
I'm still torn between these two.
You really, really, really - get the idea - need to get your hands on a medium format DSLR and a digital back/tech camera. The two options here are about as different as you could get and the suitability to task is also about as different as you could get.

My gut feeling is that if you can't decide between these two disparate options then you're not ready for either.
 

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
Even the STC to do stitching is still pretty darn compact as well. The RM2DI from Arca is supposed to be as well. Have not seen one yet but I do know someone selling there whole Arca kit including the RM2DI and three lenses. Love to buy it myself to be honest but I need to work on my upgrades or sideways movement on my system first.
 

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
You really, really, really - get the idea - need to get your hands on a medium format DSLR and a digital back/tech camera. The two options here are about as different as you could get and the suitability to task is also about as different as you could get.

My gut feeling is that if you can't decide between these two then you're not ready for either.
Have to agree you really need to get this stuff in your hands and try them. Where are you located BTW if you don't mind me asking.
 

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
If weight is of prime importance, think about the Alpa TC and the compact Schneider lenses. The TC with handgrip is 326g and a 35mmXL is 319g, add to that the Phase back at approx. 600g and you're at about 1.2kg. It does not get much lighter or compact.

Cheers, -Peter
Sweetest little combo there is. Love the TC

I have Terry's sitting here ready to ship back to her but I am procrastinating . LOL
 

kuau

Workshop Member
Time to chime in, face it, most of us who are not "professional photographers" and don't have a huge wallet, The 645D is an excellent value, I jumped into the MF game over a year ago after going on one of Guy and Jacks workshop, I new MF was for me, but I still didn't have the money to go "all in" so I tried a D3x, and all 3 of Nikons PC-E lens, so at least I can have some of the functionality that MF Tech View could bring me.
Well after shooting the D3x, because of it's 24mp sensor unfortunately on the PC-E lenses, only the 85mm was up to the task, the 24mm and 45mm just didn't cut it, not sharp enough for the demanding 24mp FF chip.
At this time I joined DigiLloyd site and learned that if I wanted to stick with the D3x, and get the maximum performance out of it, I would have to give up on my 24 and 45mm PC-E lenses and go Zeiss glass, I actually rented some zeiss glass to confirm this and he was correct, at this exact time, when testing out the zeiss glass, I found a used Hasselblad H3D39 for 6500.00, sure it had a few bumps and bruises, it wasn't the newer H3DII model, but the price was right and for 165.00 I think it was I den the camera into Hasselblad for checkout, It came back with a clean bill of health, I then proceeded to buy some used HC glasss, 28mm, 50mm, 80mm, 150mm lenses all for almost 50% of new ones would have costed me. At the time I was living in Fountain Hills, AZ, I shot this camera down in the warm weather and got great results, and thought at the time I made the right choice, I was able to upgrade from my D3x to MF for very little money.
I was happy.
Well due to my wives new job in Park City, UT, I had no idea what I was getting myself into, to make a long story short, on the first cold weather day 17 degree out, I could not get my H3D to turn on, I had 3 fully charged batteries, no go. I called hasselblad and they told me over the phone, the camera was only rated to work at 32 degrees and above but my milage would very, well apparently I hit that point. At the same time Pentax had just released there 645D in Japan, I was not going to buy this camera until it was available in the USA, in the mean time, I sold my H3D system, actually made a little money on the sale and did my research. I looked at the Phase/Mamiya body with a P25+ back and the Aptus II 5 back, this was before the DF body existed, IMHO I did not like the system, Though I am sure today with the changes to the DF body, my opinion would be different, yet, still the entry cost was very high, so I just sat tight until this January when the 645D started shipping in the USA. For my needs of course no tilt or shift, something that I always wanted but just can't afford, I felt this was a good option, and yes the lens situation is a disgrace IMHO, release a very good body at an excellent price but only have 1 new lens to go with it and worse not a very good performer, What were they thinking? Yet I went through all the testings of different FA and A lenses and ended up with a very workable system that did not cost me an arm and a leg, and as much as I would love to be able to afford a RM3di, and a 39mp back, and 3 schnieder lenses, there is just no way, and I know at the end of the day it would not make me a better photographer. I always go by my "golden rule" 90% photographer 10% equipment.

So in summary, I agree with all the other posts in regards to this thread, all very valid points that Guy, Dave, and Marc make all true, but then they are all professional photographers and some of us are not but want it all at the same time.

Maybe I will win the Lottery one day, oh yeah what looter in Utah :ROTFL:
 

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
Nicely said Steven and yes coming from a Pro's mouth the perspective is slightly different. But we can agree you need to try these things and see what you like and dislike about them.
 

GMB

Active member
Jim2,

I have followed your various posts over the past several weeks with quite some interest, because I went through a similar thought and decision making process for over a year. I posted my first question on MFD here in November 2009 and took the plunge in February 2011, eventually settling for the S2. Actually, I went back to my 2009 post http://forum.getdpi.com/forum/showthread.php?t=11358 and must say that, after having shot the S2, the advice I got was spot on.

During my decision making process, I mentally went through all the various options (Hassi, Phase, Leaf, Arca/Alpa/Cambo, and S2/Pentax). I figured that as regards image quality all of them provide plenty, and probably more than I can handle (I am a hobbyist with limited time as I have a demanding job--how else could I afford this--, a family, and a few other interests than photography). I eventually settled for the S2 because of the versatility, the form factor, the weather sealing, and the fact that it allows sponteneous shooting. I am fully aware that in the right hands, a back with 65 or 80 MP on a tech camera may give more IQ for landscape (which I shoot) or architecture (which I don't shoot). But I am not certain that I would get this out of the camera and that it would show in the prints that I am producing (as opposed to pixel peeping). More importantly, I shoot the S2 on many more occasion than I would shoot a tech camera. I am also extremely happy with the results I am getting, although I am still on a very steep learning cave, despite the fact that I came from 5 years of M shooting (i.e., knew that I had to think before pressing the shutter). Having said that, I feel/fear that, in the true spirit of this sub-forum, one day when I hopefully have more time (and hopefully still the financial resources) I will get a tech camera.

Please note that what I am saying here is very subjective and the last thing I want to do is getting into a discussion what is better. IMHO, all systems are great. You need figure out what's right for you (and whether you really want MFD). Take your time. Shoot the systems for a week or a weekend. Find out whether you prefer something that gives you the versatility of a SLR but can also be put on tripod for more deliberate shooting or the slow and deliberate style of tech camera, knowing that with a wide angel you can almost use it as a point and shoot. It took me over a year, including a trip to Photokina, to decide on that. Things only got better during that time.

BTW, I think the Pentax is a great camera. I just preferred the S2, despite the price difference.

It's an agonizing process, but once you have found the right system, you will be a happy camper. Good luck!

Georg
 
J

Jim2

Guest
Have to agree you really need to get this stuff in your hands and try them. Where are you located BTW if you don't mind me asking.
I'm travelling in the USA right now. I'm on my way to Las Vegas tonight to have dinner with friends, then spend a few days in Zion / Bryce, then fly over to Atlanta for the weekend. I'm going to see Capture Integration on this visit to check out rm3di. After that, I'm heading over to California... Death Valley for a week then fly out of USA.
 
J

Jim2

Guest
Currently I have a 1ds3 - and apart from the occasional use to take photos at friends' weddings, I have NEVER used it to take spontaneous photos. I have my waterproof Olympus tough camera for those snapshots.

I am very much an amateur and just a hobbyist, however I have _always_ used my 1ds3 on top of a tripod, with manual focus and live view. I take deliberate time in composing, as much as I can. I am very very very picky (or try to be) as to what I shoot. On a good day, I can come up with one or two great photos, but most of the time I got none. And if on one visit I can get 2-3 'nice' photos out of it, I'll be very happy.

I wake up 2-3 hours before sunrise, to the same spot, for 4-5 days in a row, or as long as my schedule allows, and I do the same waiting for the sunsets. I bring food to eat while waiting for sunsets because I know, by the time I'm done, restaurants are closed usually :(

I think my shooting style works well with a technical camera, but at the same time a Pentax 645D can work too - I can deal with the difference in handling - after all it's all just a tool to take photos.

My aim is to take the best possible photo that _I_ can. At the same time I want some sort of convenience - not bulky, so I can pack the camera inside my hiking backpack, light weight as possible, ease of focusing (live view would be great), but at the same time I would like to have tilt if possible.

I have thought LOOOOOOOOOOOOONG and HARD about spending 50-60K on IQ180 and rm3di and I've decided that I'm only young once, and I only live once. I do have the money - that's not a problem. My problem was justifying whether it's a wise use of my money because that is ethically important to me.

The question now is that which will be the best for me to use - taking money out of the equation.

I wish I can just 'try' both camera systems for a week(end) on my own without a sales person breathing down my neck but that's probably not possible unless if I know someone who owns either/both systems. I wouldn't mind flying over to you in the USA if you have time to play with me :) I am a tourist in the USA and my visitor's visa runs out soon (I've been here for over two months). I'm due to fly out of USA through LA on the 5th of May.
 
J

Jim2

Guest
Well there is an IQ140 back which is same resolution. The two are so different. If weight is a major consideration can you give more details of your planned use? Backpacking? Day trips? Wide or tele? this will help narrow down the lens selection to compare both kits.
I plan to take it everywhere I travel. I travel a lot - on average 5-6 months - not for work or business. I haven't done a lot of back packing, so mostly just day hike to a spot, take photos, hike back to stay at the motel. But I have a few backpacking trips in mind in the future - hike up a mountain in Taiwan, around Nepal, etc. Whatever may come up in the future.

Because I don't have any specific plan as to what I'll be shooting, it would be nice to be flexible but remain light / compact. I currently just use the Canon 24-105mm lens. It has served me well, but sometimes I needed longer. It would be great if I can just use two primes but I have a feeling I might need 3. In any case I'll start with just 2 and see. I don't want to buy 5 different lenses only to ever use / take 2 with me.
 
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