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Torn between Pentax 645d and IQ + RM3di

J

Jim2

Guest
One thing that I think the Pentax 645d will have an advantage over a tech camera - for example if I'm in the middle of a cultural event, a handheld SLR like camera would be great, but maybe that's why people have an M9 or whatever pocket camera they like.
 
J

Jim2

Guest
If weight is of prime importance, think about the Alpa TC and the compact Schneider lenses. The TC with handgrip is 326g and a 35mmXL is 319g, add to that the Phase back at approx. 600g and you're at about 1.2kg. It does not get much lighter or compact.

Cheers, -Peter
That would be awesome if I can also get tilt / swing. I'm beginning to think that the Cambo compact solution (no shift) with tilt / swing lenses might be a good candidate.
 
J

Jim2

Guest
Well due to my wives new job in Park City, UT, I had no idea what I was getting myself into, to make a long story short, on the first cold weather day 17 degree out, I could not get my H3D to turn on, I had 3 fully charged batteries, no go. I called hasselblad and they told me over the phone, the camera was only rated to work at 32 degrees and above but my milage would very, well apparently I hit that point.
Phase One always claims that they work in extreme conditions... and some people attested to that. However their specifications only say 32F minimum. I don't know what to think about this.

I do not want to climb a mountain all the way for 6hrs or even 5 days only to find that my camera doesn't work.
 

kuau

Workshop Member
Jim, I can tell you yes you can hand hold a 645D, but you have to keep in mind the problem you are going to have is shutter speed, Since most of the FA / A pentad lenses need to be shot at F11 for the best results, you need a lot of light, or high ISO,
This is where the S2 smokes the pentax, because you can actually shoot the thing more towards wide open because the lenses are fantastic, where as the Pentax glass not so great when opened up. So bottom line unless you are using flash or a strobe unit, I would not plan on doing to much hand holding of a 645D IMHO, others may disagree.

Steven
 

Bill Caulfeild-Browne

Well-known member
Phase One always claims that they work in extreme conditions... and some people attested to that. However their specifications only say 32F minimum. I don't know what to think about this.

I do not want to climb a mountain all the way for 6hrs or even 5 days only to find that my camera doesn't work.
FWIW I have used my DF and P65+ in -20C (-4F) with no problem whatsoever. Take a couple of spare batteries though!

Bill
 

johnnygoesdigital

New member
Taking the initial cost out of the equation.... I'm still torn between these two. I like the idea that Pentax 645d is weather sealed and in my mind I'll have more 'freedom' and 'carefree' experience with it, firstly I would not care as much about trashing a 10K camera vs a 40K back, secondly it's designed as weather sealed so I'll have more confidence in using it in harsh environment without worrying about dust / water vapour getting on to the sensor / lens, etc.

On the other hand, I think Phase + rm3di will give me a more 'compact' kit, although I'm not sure about the weight which is also of prime importance.

Last but not least, there's the resolution - 80mp vs 40 - not sure how important that would be.
Jim,

If movements are essential, then a RM3d is a good choice. I too, was concerned with weather sealing, but an inexpensive Kata rain bag (E-702), will mitigate any weather issues. I agree with Guy, that a 645DF with an 80mm is a great deal, and allows the use of 2 types of camera shooting styles, plus you have a focal plane and leaf shutter option.
Also, if movements are not a concern and you want the ultimate portable system, then the Alpa TC, should be considered too. It's the smallest MFD.

This part of your purchase is the most fun, enjoy your quest and keep us posted.
 

johnnygoesdigital

New member
Jim2,

The ambient temp. range seems to be the same for most cameras. Many have used their gear in extreme conditions. Just let any camera acclimate to the ambient temp. of a location before shooting. Sensors and glass can collect moisture from extreme variables in temp. When traveling in humid locations bring those desiccant packs that reduce moisture, throw them in you bag and your good to go!
 

stpf8

New member
I had waited for 5 years for the Pentax 645D, and my lenses were waiting as well. In the meantime, I used film with my 645NII. I also acquired a Hasselblad 501cm and 4 lenses, just to give the square format a try (and I love it). After a recent trip to the southwest, I was scanning film taken with both cameras (or more precisely, both sets of lenses). That was an eye-opening experience. The Zeiss lenses ran circles around those from Pentax. At that moment, I gave up any notion of purchasing the 645D; I felt the current lenses could not deliver like lenses from other manufacturers, and there would be no used lenses of the "new" variety for quite some time. I was also troubled by the less than stellar reviews of the new Pentax 55mm, and the 25mm carries a $5k price tag. If I were to get a Pentax 645D, I'd seriously consider a lens adapter that would enable the use of non-Pentax glass (although that would be much less convenient in actual usage). In the end, I opted for a different system with the lenses made for that particular camera, and the software (emphasized by Guy) that came with the camera (something I didn't fully appreciate at the time of my purchase).
 

D&A

Well-known member
Jim, I can tell you yes you can hand hold a 645D, but you have to keep in mind the problem you are going to have is shutter speed, Since most of the FA / A pentad lenses need to be shot at F11 for the best results, you need a lot of light, or high ISO,
This is where the S2 smokes the pentax, because you can actually shoot the thing more towards wide open because the lenses are fantastic, where as the Pentax glass not so great when opened up. So bottom line unless you are using flash or a strobe unit, I would not plan on doing to much hand holding of a 645D IMHO, others may disagree.

Steven
Steven (Kuau), whom I have a great deal of respect for, especially in regards to his landscape work, (including those with the 645D), often has different priorities in shooting the 645D than I do and we've often talked about this vis-a-vis Pentax 645 lenses. My requirements often have me needing to shoot lenses at wider apertures than he does, sometimes open as much as 0.5 to 1.5 stops closed down from the len's maximum aperture. The reasons are many and this would include the occasional need to hand hold the 645D, so performance of lenses shot wider than f11-13 is why I 1st started testing so many samples of FA lenses. In time I found quite a few lenses (although certainly not all), that were able to make a set of most of the focal lengths I required, which all could be reliably used one stop down from maximum aperture and even a few that were exceptionally good wide open. Of course they are not at their best resolution at these apertures, but with careful selection of ISO and shutter speed, resulting images can be printed very large (with a discerning and critical eye used as part of the criteria for determining what is exceptionally good for at least a 16x24 or 24x36 print in a great many cases and sometimes larger.). Still it all depends on a lot of factors and Steven knows as well as anyone what a person has to go through to both find these "samples" as well as set up the 645D's AF fine tune, in order to be able to get performance as I described. I cannot comment though as to their capabilities when compared to some of the exceptional Zeiss and Hasselblad lenses, and this is where those that have made direct comparisions, possibly on the same body, could evaluate this aspect of comparison.

Except for a few brief minutes of shooting with the Leica S2, I can't really comment on that system, but something tells me (along with my long time experience with many of their fantastic M lenses) that the S2 would be a much easier way to go in purchasing and utilizing lenses at very wide apertures, when compared to the current 645D system of lenses (both the two current Pentax "WR" ones as well as all the recently discontinued FA Af series of lenses). This I would suspect is not only due to the consistancy of lens samples of a given lens but in their optical design with the ability to perform well specifically at more open apertures.

Dave (D&A)
 
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cng

New member
But any Arca/Alpa offers you flat stitching
[cough] Not to mention the Cambo Wide RS. [cough]

You really, really, really - get the idea - need to get your hands on a medium format DSLR and a digital back/tech camera. The two options here are about as different as you could get and the suitability to task is also about as different as you could get.

My gut feeling is that if you can't decide between these two disparate options then you're not ready for either.
+1.

Jim, you have been posting in circles for a short while now, and to jump on the bandwagon: forget looking at the specs lists, the web chatter, the product catalogues, and go and TRY these systems out. :deadhorse:

I think my shooting style works well with a technical camera, but at the same time a Pentax 645D can work too - I can deal with the difference in handling - after all it's all just a tool to take photos.
Using a tripod, getting up at dawn and being picky with what you shoot is one thing. Bear in mind that the ergonomics and user-interface (for want of a better term) of tech cameras are vastly different to 35mm and MF DSLR's. Again, I echo KeithL's comment above. I'm not saying any one system is lesser/more or better/worse. They are all just DIFFERENT.

An analogous example that I have seen many times before are those who lust after an M Leica. If they were friends I always lent them my M6 and they mostly always came back gushing over the quality, but wouldn't buy one because it wasn't what they had expected or were used to. Too quirky, too hard, too different etc. On the face of it the M is 135 format just like a Canon/Nikon, but until you actually pick one up and USE it then you will very quickly discover whether you love it or hate it.

My aim is to take the best possible photo that _I_ can. At the same time I want some sort of convenience - not bulky, so I can pack the camera inside my hiking backpack, light weight as possible, ease of focusing (live view would be great), but at the same time I would like to have tilt if possible.
This is an unbelievably loaded statement. Define convenience, ease of focusing etc. Relative to what? You can't possibly answer these questions until you've spent some time with these systems yourself.

I do have the money - that's not a problem. My problem was justifying whether it's a wise use of my money because that is ethically important to me.

The question now is that which will be the best for me to use - taking money out of the equation.
Despite saying that you have taken money out of the equation, you still seem to be conflicted between having the "best" because you can afford it, but at the same time worried about putting down a significant truckload of cash on something you may end up regretting. To be honest, until you sort out this internal conflict you will most likely not enjoy ANY system you buy because you will always be thinking either that you spent too little or that you spent too much.

I can't tell if you are trying to decide on a new system yourself or whether you are hoping someone on this forum will do it for you.

Do some research on cognitive dissonance and confirmation bias. You may find it interesting.

I wish I can just 'try' both camera systems for a week(end) on my own without a sales person breathing down my neck but that's probably not possible unless if I know someone who owns either/both systems. I wouldn't mind flying over to you in the USA if you have time to play with me :) I am a tourist in the USA and my visitor's visa runs out soon (I've been here for over two months). I'm due to fly out of USA through LA on the 5th of May.
You can rent these systems from a good dealer – so you will not have the salesperson breathing down your neck – and have the rental fee deducted if you decide to purchase from them. Some will even ship the cameras out to you.

Unless I am mistaken, you mentioned in another post that you are Australian? Some of these systems are available for rent from the major Oz dealers. However, last time I checked (which was earlier this year) there was only one Alpa TC for hire/test in Sydney and no Arca-Swiss R-series anywhere in the country.

Options are available to you if you choose to proactively seek them out. You are in a better position than most considering that by your own admission you travel for pleasure half the year and money is no option.

Finally, playing devil's advocate, have you considered that maybe your Canon is what's best for you?
 
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Professional

Active member
Honestly speaking, if i bought that tech camera and DB then i know 100% that i need a DSLR type camera no doubt, but if i have DSLR MF then i know that i am not in rush for tech camera + DB, i always forget that i will not shoot landscape only, when i travel i shoot cityscapes and people and events, in this case tech camera will slow me down more than a DSLR, i have been to USA and unfortunately i never been to NP or landscapes, that time i had my H3D2 using it around in NYC, i am sure i may not able to do much more with tech camera against DSLR, but now i am really ready and willing to get tech camera + DB + Schneider lenses to go with for landscapes and architecture.

I think i started with DSLR and i am shooting with LF helping and etching me how to use tech camera in the future, in fact i bought an adapter to use my Canon DSLR on my LF camera, so it is look like i have a tech camera, but still the resolution is of Canon not of MF, which if they have that adapter for MF to use it on my LF then i may not think about tech camera for longer time until i can get one, now i feel i want that tech camera so badly even its use it a bit different than DSLR, but with practice and patience there is nothing impossible or difficult, and about weight, well, i remember i was hiking around in NYC carrying my Canon DSLR and H3D2 both together at same time and taking photos here and there, and even when i go to shoot football match i take my 2 1-series camera both attached to long lenses heavy and i don't use monopod either [300 is not bad to handhold, if i will have 400 then i must get one], so weight will never make it an issue for me, and for that if i will have any tech camera so lightweight then i will feel that i have a toy camera to carry [due to weight not performance].
 

GrahamWelland

Subscriber & Workshop Member
Jim2:
I also shoot with both a technical camera and a MF DSLR and I'd also recommend that you get your hands on a technical camera for a weekend to see if it's for you or not. If you've never used one before then you're in for a shock because the operation is so different and manual compared to traditional DLSR shooting. It's definitely not for everyone and getting into a system only to find that you can't or don't like using it is an expensive undertaking. From the description of your shooting conditions and style you might be best served by starting out with a MF DSLR system as it'll be like your 1DS III only with better tonality. The 645D might be just that camera and you can be sure that if you try it and want to move to something more ambitious then you'll be able to sell it very very easily.

Now if you were coming into MF digital from a larger format such as 4x5 film then maybe starting out with a technical camera system would be an easier undertaking. It's not that shooting a tech camera is difficult, because it isn't. It's just a slow deliberate process that doesn't lend itself to many facets of general shooting but what it does excel at is raw image quality so long as you shoot it correctly. The Pentax is much closer to your Canon and by comparison you can pretty much use it anywhere anytime.

Good luck! :watch:
 

gazwas

Active member
What I don't understand Jim is what your actually buying this MF/tech camera for?

Is it just some hobbyist urge (no offence meant) to have the best or do you have a specific need for it. It seem to me you are so full of doubt you must be loosing sleep over it and for what.........?

I went MF/View camera because I had a specific need that my Canon couldn't meet and the best solution to all my headaches for my line work. It seems to me you've said you don't print large, have TS-E lenses your happy with, like AF and enjoy using your camera in a methodical way using live view.

I just don't get what dragon your chasing as you seem pretty content with your present gear to me.
 

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
The bottom line a IQ 180 or Aptus 12 with any tech cam with the Schneiders /Rodenstock lenses will be the best you can get. So work back from there on what you are after. The real question remains and I agree with gazwas is where do you really want or need to be on this IQ scale. To me from you questions and answers not sure a tech cam is really the answer but you can have both a tech cam and a DSLR MF system with one back and make a choice when you shoot.

Honestly as much as i like a tech cam i have not pulled the trigger on one. For me it is too slow to work with and more importantly not versatile enough. Look at my images on what lenses I use a lot just doing landscapes. Hint here it is not a normal lens but mostly a 110, 150 and 300. To me those longer lenses are a absolute nightmare to focus on a tech cam. If i did go down tis route I would HAVE to have a IQ back just to confirm focus since it is tough to achieve by the time I did that in the field I most likely would have missed other shots. My main reason for a tech cam would be on the shorter end since this is where most lenses in any MF system are going to have there hardest time against the tech lenses be it Hassy , Phase , Leica, Pentax they are all going to come up ultimately short. Now having said that let me use guy english here it ain't enough to sweat it either and given what i know of the Phase glass not enough to care. Frankly no modesty here my images are not lacking for anything on the IQ side of the house. As long as my technique is good and my raw processing than it will be always really damn close. Yes the Schneiders are awesome and will not deny that but the real question is will you notice it by LARGE margains. I contend you will not and for me not sure it will always be worth it to slow myself down. That for sure is not me is slowing my shooting down.

If your not after a tech cam down the road or now and prefer more DSLR 35mm style than the S2 is a contender here but there are limits here also 37mpx tops and no real upgrade path. Nice system though but again never ever buy for today you always want to buy for down the road that goes with any system that you are thinking about. You have to pick something to compare against right now your just floating over the whole thing and not settling down on a solution. BTW the folks at CI are not salesman to pressure you into buying far from it to be honest, they are there to help just like any other good dealer out there. They also sell S2's as well as leaf backs. Try them all out or at least look at them and see what may fit you. No one here can make up your mind , all we can do is give suggestions on what each system is capable of or not. I get these PM's everyday on what to buy but you need to decide at least what direction you want to go.
 

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
BTW not a downer on Tech cams. I totally love them myself and I totally get why folks love to shoot them.
 

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
LOL I really like tech cams but have a real hard time pulling the trigger on one. At least I would not give up the DF system like some I know. LOL
 
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