For those interested and with very deep pockets.
Luminous Landscape Preview:
For those interested and with very deep pockets.
Luminous Landscape Preview:
$42,000. for a back, camera and lens $$$$$$$$$$???????
That'll separate the men & women from the boys & girls.
But it comes with software.
Actually it's not as expensive as I would have expected. If street price is a bit lower it's not that much higher than Leaf or Sinar, and that's at today's US$ exchange rate.
Time to kick my 18 year old out and sell that part of the house to someone.
Perhaps not everybody will have one now, but in time if you visit this forum next year... I'm sure you'll see many will have one, some may even add a baby P30+ next to it even though there is no need for it.... apparently with P65+ you can switch modes P65+/P30+ and shoot FAST/SLOW/LONG EXPOSURE/EVERYTHING!!!
Of course I am excited about it, but not hungry though
Last edited by Natasa Stojsic; 13th July 2008 at 14:37.
Let's hope that is correct about "variable resolution" as an option, and that they still have 5-6 months to get that long exposure part worked out, as it did not sound like that was a "for sure" part yet. (Not saying MR did not report things accurately, but even he admits that some of his words reflect speculation on his part.)
As for the price...did anybody really expect something like this to come in much below this price tag? However, as Natasa says, buyers will determine if this price sticks or not, as may anything put out there by Sinar, and we still have not heard all from Hassy on their 645 camera. Competition is good, and let's hope the makers compete hard for customers ;-)
To all the real men and women boys and girls out there who need this bigger big boy stuff...I will pay $5K for a P25+ back today - thanks.
yeah I agree - maybe I offered too much...
Actually, what will be most interesting is how this back will compare to a 39 meg Multi-Shot ... if it does so favorably (TBD), then the price isn't so out of wack since Multi-Shot 39 meg backs are right up there price wise ... and in fact would be far more preferable since it wouldn't require a still subject.
Then it will be of much more interest to many professionals looking for that level of image capture once only available with a Multi-Shot ... like me : -)
Doug posted this . I thought I would quote him here on the focal length with FF 645
28mm lens used with a P65+ is the same as an 18mm lens used with full-frame 35mm body (e.g. 1Ds Mark III)
35mm lens used with a P65+ is the same as a 22mm lens used with full-frame 35mm body (e.g. 1Ds Mark III)
That is pretty powerful wide angle coverage
The P45 is has a 1:1 crop, because of this, I have assumed that the 28mm Mamiya would be 19.8mm effective in a 35mm format and the 35mm would be 24.2.
Does that sync with the new size of the P65+? which is 1:0,
The 28mm now Paul is 21mm and the 35mm is 28mm give or take a MM on the P25 and P45. Hope I have that right
If I could afford it without feeling any pain, I'd order it right now and not even care about the trade-in value of my P45+... But I still have three kids to get through University so it may be a while for me...
Which gets straight to the point of do I *need* it? ... Unfortunately I do not. But that doesn't stop me from wanting it anyway
Right now, only two unanswered questions give me pause: The first is, how long of exposure will the new Dalsa sensor allow? I often shoot exposures in the 1 to 2 minute range and traditionally, Dalsa has not had good long-exposure characteristics beyond 30 seconds. The second is what gains will the low-resolution setting allow? (Ha! -- now 30MP is "low" resolution!) Higher frame rates and higher ISO, or only one of those, or none at all except a smaller file?
IF one got faster frame rates and/or higher ISO, then this back becomes a true 2-fer and hence seems to pretty quickly justify its cost of entry. Especially true for those of you who are already shooting a combo of backs like the P30+/H31 with P45+/H39 for the options of both speed/High-ISO and overall image quality...
It'll also be interesting to see what kind of color differences there may be between images taken with the Dalsa sensor compared to those taken with the Kodak sensor in the P+ backs.
Capture Integration Focal Length Equivalency Calculator <-- updated to include the P65.
I'm the tech guy, so I'll just say that all of my conversations with Phase One engineers/technicians indicates that the current performance level (extraordinary and class-leading though it may be) is only the beginning of what Phase can accomplish. I'd look for firmware/software/hardware improvements that will take this back even further ahead of the competition (Phase has always been extremely generous with their trade-in programs).
Yes, I am excited :-). I love product launches! I was up all night keying in our website updates (to go live imminently).
As for pixel-binning and variable resolution I would expect details at Photokina which will end speculation, but that's only a guess and not inside-information. Apart from this specific digital back I can tell you that the advantage of pixel-binning over just plain down-resing is 1) smaller raw file 2) lower noise 3) faster theoretical transfer times. Depending on where in the process they bin the pixels (e.g. before/after the AD conversion) I would expect the noise reduction (especially in shadows) and increase in apparent sharpness at 100% to be hefty. Only time will tell...
Capture Integration, Phase One Dealer
A good dealer or a power-user can use Phase One's Color Editor to generate color profiles to match previous digital backs (or even the color of a specific dSLR) as part of the purchasing process. I've done this for instance for a customer who wanted to match a P45+ to a P25+. This includes skin tone response under your preferred lighting conditions. Hell, I could make a P45+ in incandescent light behave like my Canon point and shoot under moonlight if for some reason that was the look I prefered; it's all in the profile and the per-channel latitude of the raw file (assuming you pick a digital back manufacturer that offers a tool like the Color Editor).
This is also where the concept of "good skin tones" get mixed up with one's personal opinion. If you want olive skin tones or red skin tones (or even if you wanted blue skin tones) the tools provided by Phase One allow for the creation in 10 minutes of a custom profile that matches your tastes. This is not Photoshop; the profile can be applied to all incoming tethered shots the moment they are captured or applied in seconds to hundreds of shots after the fact.
So, yes the color will be accurate. Yes there will be SUBTLE differences (read: technical improvements the usefulness of which will depend on your aesthetics). Yes, we (or any good dealer) can help you establish a color profile that matches your desired aesthetics.
Capture Integration, Phase One Dealer
A lot of this tech sounds promising. Guess it remains to be seen once it is in final form and folks have a chance to see for themselves.
Speaking of seeing....can someone clarify whether the LCD will remain the small, marginal performer it is now, or will it gain some actual higher performance (larger, more pixels, brighter for working outdoors, etc.). While this may not seem as important as the actual sensor details and working, it is an important feature for utility. There seems few credible reasons why these backs do not have larger and higher resolution LCDs at this point, and heat and power seem weak excuses, given how easy it is to place high res color LCDs on everything from an iPhone to inexpensive digicams.
Sorry for the bit of a rant.....the specs look good, but some physical attributes of the back itself remained a bit mired.
Hey Guy and Jack, I have a proposal for you.
Between the two of you you have a P25+ and a P45+. It would be very interesting for you to get together and shoot a common subject as you both also have the new Phase body. The print the results at a size that requires uprezzing of the P25 files and goes native res with the P45+. Now look at the differences and show them to non Phase owners to assure some level of objectivity. (It is very hard to be objective when you have $22K to $31K invested......I know it would be hard for me with My Hassy H3DII-39)
Anyway the point of the exercise is to see how well the P25+ compares to a much higher resolution back. It also shows the worth of the fatter pixels of the P25+ compared to the higher res backs. So you might also want to shoot some higher ISO stuff to test that. Having gone from my CFV back (16Mpx square) to the 39Mpx H3 I am not sure which one I prefer. That CFV back is actually pretty special and I may yet own a new CFVII to go along with my modified 203FE. Then I can personally do some comparisons.
Just a thought
Doug,A good dealer or a power-user can use Phase One's Color Editor to generate color profiles to match previous digital backs (or even the color of a specific dSLR) as part of the purchasing process.
Will the Color Editor be returning in v4 Pro when it finally is released?
Sounds good Woody and when we can get together again soon I hope we will do that. We did test a little in San Juan the straight P25 not the Plus against the P45 plus and there is a detail difference but that may not show up until you hit the 20x30 print size i would guess. The P25 plus though I can uprez in C1 which i do for clients to 125 percent and frankly there is no difference that I can tell uprezing it, handles very well the files.
I admit the P65+ is very interesting if it can do leaf + focal plane shutters, T/S lenses, high resolution, fast captures, and "lower" resolution with higher ISOs in one system. The only drawback is that I still need to keep a backup.
Note that we have run this exact test: http://www.captureintegration.com/tests/phase-one/ (see the 2nd test)
I ran the comparison myself.
Capture Integration, Phase One Dealer
Thanks DougNew and improved Color Editor is indeed a lock for 4.2 Pro.
You have a great set-up to cover most needs. The P30+ will handle the lower light and focal plane needs for shooting, and your H3DII-39 can manage anything you may run into needing more res or higher flash syncs. Not sure what else you could need.
The P65+ will have more pixels, but we have yet to see it perform, or even in the wild yet, so no rush there. If you were thinking of it, you most likely could just sell your P30+, as that would be covered (IF they get the ISO up, and IF you could live without longer exposures), as then you would have the higher and lower resolutions covered, and your H39 would fall in the middle and still never be a slouch, plus still serving as outstanding primary or back-up for most things you might need to shoot. Really does not sound like a bad problem to have.
As for all the other wishes in your list.....I think there are many, myself included, that would like to see those come to pass. IF Phase/Mamiya are able to get decent leaf shutter lenses out to work on their camera for both leaf and focal plane needs, that could be the single system ticket. That remains to be seen, and it is a bit surprising how quiet pre-Photokina announcements are for those lenses. The 80 they have promised, or that will be shipping, is nice, but very overlapped with everything for most folks. Would be nice to get a good wide and couple of short-med teles out real soon so that the camera actually becomes a flexible system for those needing it. Otherwise, the kit you have still seems like an outstanding answer to covering most bases. Just my thinking.
I really think we have some exciting products coming out from Sinar , Hassy and Phase right now with the few announcements that have been made. I'm sure they may have even more for the big show.
Some simple geometry solves for focal length adjustments betwen different sized chips/film - remember your high school geometry : a^2 + b^2 = c^2 that gives you the ratios to play with to your heart's content
LOLOL! But one also needs to know what that diagonal signifies Many may not be aware it is how the "normal" focal length for any given format is determined. Ironic perhapas too that I just this morning put together an Excel spreadsheet that did all the calcs for me. I was actually a bit surprised at how little additional diagonal there was to the bigger frame -- just a skosh, about a 10% reduction in effective overall focal length...
I forgot my high school math but based on my very limited understanding of quantum mechanics it seems none of it applies any more. All I know is that my photography related expenditures have created a black hole in my bank account
LOL Woody and Jack...
Full 645 @ 60 Meg !!!
Not only is this a potential assult on my bank account ... not having one makes my wanker feel smaller ...
Would love to see Leaf hit one out of the park. Yair, they may be appetizers but they ain't cheap.
Please, if you could, explain a bit more about your comment, as I am not understanding what you are inferring. By "cheap" are you suggesting that the prices are very low (hardly seems the case with some of these 50-60MP backs, Hartblei lenses, etc., being discussed)? or that the quality is poor compared to the price? or that the offerings are repurposed gear with marginal updates or changes? or that the devices are afterthoughts, rather than good design?
Not trying to make a debate, just trying to understand your comment about the "cheap appetizers". If that suggests that Leaf has some new line-up of things that overtops everything else out there, that would be very interesting to learn about at this point.
They may have liked the old car but they would normally want a new one with some creature comforts in it, safety features and so on...Especially when paying a premium for it...
Sure we have some new stuff coming though no point in talking about it this early
I have to say that what I really want SOOOOO MUUUCCCCHHHH MORE than a new sensor and back, is a body with better auto focus, image stabilization, less mirror slap, brighter view finder, a good LCD for image review on the back, faster shooting, dual CF cards, etc..... (IN OTHER WORDS, PLEASE GIVE ME A NIKON D3 TYPE BODY FOR MEDIUM FORMAT!!!!!!!!!)
How do we get this message across to the medium format companies??????
Probably the only way to really get this message across is to stop buying what they are currently selling (especially at these prices) and talk long and hard to your dealer so he gets the message to Hassy, Sinar Phase et al.
The only thing in the favor of the MF body makers is that their body itself is cheaper than say a D3 (of course the D3 sensor is included in the price.) Or perhaps a better comparison would be to the Canon 1DsMkIII. Then you have a 35mm FF sensor at 22 Mpx and it sells for $7900. You can get a Hassy 16Mpx anniversary package including the 503, 40 CFE IF and the CFV back for $12,995. Deduct the $5800 which is the list price of the 40 CFE IF and you have $7200 for the equivalent price to the Canon. Pretty darned competitive I would say.
However this doesn't dispute your point about features needed to make the MF bodies more competitive. Sadly none of these MF bodies (and most of the lenses) are rugged enough, weather proofed enough etc to be view truly as a field camera. And since I bought my H3DII-39 to do primarily landscapes this is a problem! I would like to have all the features you describe very much but I can usually work around them. I can do a mirror up or reset the shutter delay to get rid of vibration from the honkin slap of that big gorilla. But if it is raining, I am out of luck unless I want to take high risk with a $31K back! LOL
So I am with you and will make sure I talk to Steve hendrix about our concerns so he gets the messages to Hasselblad. Personally my number one priority after weather sealing is a focal plane shutter body for the H series. That would give me access to a bunch of lenses that i now can't use e.g. the wonderful Hassy 110 2.0. I use this lens on my Nikons with a novoflex adapter and man it may be the best portrait lens ever. Right up there with the C/Y 85 1.2, the Leica 180 2.0 etc.
Just my thoughts
Agreed on all points.
Your last point about the focal plane shutter is why I have two systems now. One Phase/Mamiya and one Hassy.