Mp, sensorsize and shooting hand held - S2 vs D?x

[D&A]

Work around when in doubt. Monopod

In situations outside the tripod and hairly on handheld the mono can save the day. It's so overlooked by many.

Guy "nailed it" regarding use the monopod, when that extra support over handheld is necessary. Often when I can't use the tripod, I have one of those Bogan Monopod's with the optional "pull out" three tiny legs at its base. Those legs have sometimes given me considerable stability greater than a regular monopod, but of course nowheres near the stability of a tripod. Some like this particular model monopod, some don't. I've found it handy with certain camera/lens combinations, when a tripod's use is impractical for a given situation.

You're welcome GPA. It's sometimes a matter of practicing and trying things out in order to improve the chances of getting the desired results (at least before one pulls out whatever hair they have left on their head

Dave (D&A)

 

[HCHeyerdahl]

Hmmm.
The pixel size of the P65+, Leica S2 and Nikon D3x is almoat identical (6 micron).

Now, if I understand the argument above, they should theoretically all be approx equally demanding to shoot hand held.

A number of people report sucessfully using a D3x hand held. Some are reporting the same for the S2. Now many claim that P65+ and similar high res bodies need to be on a tripod. Is this simply because the D3x and S2 can use higher ISO & shutterspeeds? Or are perhaps the P65+ and other digital backs just plain difficult to opperate hand held compared to a DSLR-type camera body?

Sincerely,

Chris

 

[dick]

Hmmm.
The pixel size of the P65+, Leica S2 and Nikon D3x is almoat identical (6 micron).

Now, if I understand the argument above, they should theoretically all be approx equally demanding to shoot hand held.

Only if the focal length and distance to subject were the same, which they would not be for the same composition, as the sensor sizes are different.

A number of people report sucessfully using a D3x hand held. Some are reporting the same for the S2. Now many claim that P65+ and similar high res bodies need to be on a tripod. Is this simply because the D3x and S2 can use higher ISO & shutterspeeds? Or are perhaps the P65+ and other digital backs just plain difficult to opperate hand held compared to a DSLR-type camera body?

Sincerely,

Chris

A heavier bigger camera may be more difficult to hold, and tiring to hold all day, but my big and heavy Hasselblad 50-110 zoom would be theoretically less prone to camera shake than a prime at the same focal length. The bigger lens also serves as a handle for steadier holding.

With a GF2/GH2 you get the opposite effect - camera too small to get your hands round, but short lenses, large apertures (e.g. f 1.7) and high ISO help to avoid camera shake, and the Anti-Aliasing filter and lower pixel quality make it harder to spot camera shake.

 

[Ebe]

Calculator results, just to see some numbers!

0.000009*100/0.10
9 micron at 100m with 100mm lens (Canon 5D)
effective sample resolution = 0.009

0.000006*100/0.1
6 micron at 100m with 100mm lens (Aka Nikon D3x)
effective sample resolution = 0.006

0.000006*100/0.12
6 micron at 100m with 120mm lens ( S2/P40/Pentax )
effective sample resolution = 0.005

0.0000055*100/0.15
5.5 micron at 100m with 150mm lens (Full MFD-- IQ180/Leaf12)
effective sample resolution = 0.0036

0.000006*100/0.15
6 micron at 100m with 150mm lens (full MFD -- P65/Etc)
effective sample resolution = 0.004

0.000009*100/0.15 (full MFD -- P25/Etc)
9 micron at 100m with 150mm lens
effective sample resolution = 0.006

 

[MaxKißler]

If pixel density has such a huge impact on blur caused by camera shake, shouldn't Sensor+ mode eliminate this to a certain extend since the density gets multiplied by four'? Or wouldn't it make a difference as the image gets downsampled later while it's being processed?

 

[GrahamWelland]

Oh by the way Graham, are you sure your diagram wasn't originally used as an illustration of ICBM's during the cold war era?

Dave (D&A)

My lips are sealed.

If pixel density has such a huge impact on blur caused by camera shake, shouldn't Sensor+ mode eliminate this to a certain extend since the density gets multiplied by four'? Or wouldn't it make a difference as the image gets downsampled later while it's being processed?

Generally, yes. Down sampling will do this for you anyway.

 

[HCHeyerdahl]

Thanks guys this has been really helpfull!

Reegarding my initial question, I conclude that there will be some differense between a D3x and a S2 regarding the ability to be used hand held - but fare less than the diffence between a D3x and a D700.

To get the same composition, and assuming a lens equivalent ratio of roughly 1:1.2, I would have to use a 100mm and 120mm on the D3x and S2 respectively and get effective sample resolutions 0.006 vs 0.005 at 100 meters (0.0084 on a D700/D3s).

Furthermore, to compensate for difference in dof I would roughly have to decrease aperture approx 1 step and thus loose half the shutter speed on the S2.

I also conclude that if future D4x and S3 increase resolution the pixel pitch may become so small that the cameras become very demanding to use hand held unless the ISO abilities catch up allowing use of higher shutter speeds.

Chris

 

[GrahamWelland]

I also conclude that if future D4x and S3 increase resolution the pixel pitch may become so small that the cameras become very demanding to use hand held unless the ISO abilities catch up allowing use of higher shutter speeds.

Chris

This would seem a very reasonable conclusion.

The quest for greater and greater resolution from the same size sensor results in more challenges for lenses, imaging workflow and technique. Add in ever reducing DoF and also earlier onset of diffraction requiring even more limited & wider usable aperture settings, and you can see where things are leading. Basically, it gets harder to shoot well as you increase the resolution/decrease sensor pitch and impeccable technique & support becomes even more essential than it already is.

 

[GMB]

Work around when in doubt. Monopod

In situations outside the tripod and hairly on handheld the mono can save the day. It's so overlooked by many.

As a MFDB newbie, I cannot underscore this enough. Never used a monopod with my M8 or M9 but got a Bembo shortly after I bought the S2. I tested it at home and was able to get a sharp immage with 180mm lens at 1/25th. I think that for long lenses, a monopod can easily add 3-4 stops for handheld shooting. On a recent trip to Sicily it proved the most important accessory, You can easily carry it and use it at many places where a tripod would be impractical or inappropriate.

 

[Paratom]

In the end I would say there are three factors (with pixel pitch):
1) motion blur (from the subject) as discussed (not to be avoided by a tripod)
2) blur from the cameranot being stable/mirror shale etc.
3) the more pixel on same or smaller sensor size the more demanding regarding the glass.

What I can say for sure is that the S2 can be used in a lot of situations handheld. I usually set my autoiso to max 1/250 and max 640 ISO and that works for me in many situations pretty good.

I have handhold some images at 1/30 and 1/60 with the 70mm lens on the S2 with really acceptable results.

 

[SergeiR]

Generally, yes. Down sampling will do this for you anyway.

yup. Think contact printing

 

[Geoff]

for cameras with leaf shutters, MLU is pretty good too. Sometimes with a long lens (>150 mm), brace the camera, lock up the mirror, and grab 3-4 quick shots... one will probably be sharp. This technique has worked with handheld 300 mm hand at 1/125, and 40 mm down to 1/30....

 

[SergeiR]

As a MFDB newbie, I cannot underscore this enough. Never used a monopod with my M8 or M9 but got a Bembo shortly after I bought the S2. I tested it at home and was able to get a sharp immage with 180mm lens at 1/25th. I think that for long lenses, a monopod can easily add 3-4 stops for handheld shooting. On a recent trip to Sicily it proved the most important accessory, You can easily carry it and use it at many places where a tripod would be impractical or inappropriate.

Also monopod is self-defense thingy that you can carry around places, unlike baseball club

 

[Guy Mancuso]

Not to go to far OT but I highly recommend this head. This one I actually put my Arca Flip lever clamp on. They have a few models but really nice head for any monopod.

http://reallyrightstuff.com/Product...q=&desc=MH-01-Hi-Capacity-Monopod-Head&key=it

 

[djonesii]

While I don't have a S2 or a D3X, I do have a D7000 and a ZD, and under strobes, I can seem to hand hold just fine at 1/125, no matter what lens I'm using. The ZD w/ 150mm should be just at the edge based on all that I'm reading here, but I seem to be getting pretty good sharpness. Same goes for the D7000/D300 80-200 lens. This is all at f9-11, moving to natural light and lower f stop numbers, there is noticeable loss of sharpness.

I will be getting a P30+ soon, and hope to get the same type sharpness on the crop sensor without resorting to a tripod in the studio, with strobes, but reading this thread does not give me a lot of hope in this respect. Am I missing something here?

Dave

 

[docmoore]

Also monopod is self-defense thingy that you can carry around places, unlike baseball club

Stick with aluminum for travel just for this purpose...carbon fiber does not hold up well to abuse.

However, I wonder if I could mount a RRS Monopod Head on a Louisville Slugger? :ROTFL:

Bob

 

[doug]

.. I think that for long lenses, a monopod can easily add 3-4 stops for handheld shooting..

I typically combine a shoulder stock & monopod and have occasionally gotten sharp photos at 1/15 sec with a 35mm camera & 280mm lens when leaning against a car.

 

[SergeiR]

Stick with aluminum for travel just for this purpose...carbon fiber does not hold up well to abuse.

Hmm.. my first CF tripod, bought in 2006 travelled across the pond and back quite a few times, being through offroading trips and mountainboarding accidents.. Still kicking, still well.. Only time when it went down was when dude in Washington's (DC) airport decided to disassemble it "just in case" and kindly forgot to put in all parts.. But trip to local ACE hardware shop in Phoenix , week after that, before shoot supplied me with all the missing washers and parts.

 

[SergeiR]

While I don't have a S2 or a D3X, I do have a D7000 and a ZD, and under strobes, I can seem to hand hold just fine at 1/125, no matter what lens I'm using. The ZD w/ 150mm should be just at the edge based on all that I'm reading here, but I seem to be getting pretty good sharpness. Same goes for the D7000/D300 80-200 lens. This is all at f9-11, moving to natural light and lower f stop numbers, there is noticeable loss of sharpness.

I will be getting a P30+ soon, and hope to get the same type sharpness on the crop sensor without resorting to a tripod in the studio, with strobes, but reading this thread does not give me a lot of hope in this respect. Am I missing something here?

Dave

If you shoot in dark enough studio setting, with fast enough shutter speed and low iso - you essentually shooting at 1/(whatever discharge speed is for your strobes), not just 1/125 or whatnot. So for good strobes you getting 1/1000 which is fairly well working handheld on most occasions , if you actually focused ok and aint doing diving/leaning when pushing button, after refocusing.

Still will work same with P30+, unless you got some really bad glass.

Also "sharpness" is somewhat "visual" judgement of contrast on edges. If you luck that contrast, even if actual focus and resolution is there - shot will look "soft". Add contrast - suddenly there is sharpness popping up.

"Edge of Darkness" is great book on sharpness and details, btw

 

[lowep]

"Instead of approximating a partial-diff, we can simply plug-and-chug numbers of assumed human motion velocities. Multiply the shutter interval by your approximated motion. If this number is greater than your GSD, your image will not be critically sharp. It's that easy."

OK, I understand everything up to "Instead of"

Can anyone who actually does understand this PLEASE give me a ballpark guesstimate of whether it is humanly possible for an ordinary coffee-drinking mortal to get an acceptably sharp shot of a person standing still about 3-5 meters way out of a 33MP eMotion75 back with an 80mm lens on a Contax 645 or similar camera?

If yes then what is the slowest shutter speed you would recommend I risk I dropping my Contax 645 down to if I want to be fairly sure the eyes of the person will look not like porridge?

By "acceptably sharp" I mean that if I print the image at 300dpi edges of eyes, hairs and contours of lips are more like lines than blobs.

And to complicate matters even further, what is the minimum shutter speed you would suggest if the person is moving at a walking pace across the frame at a constant distance from the camera?

Maybe like most others reading this even I can figure this out with film but have more trouble doing same with digital.

The reason that I am asking is part of my ongoing quixotic quest to find out if I really should with practice be able to hand hold this beast with this MFDB that I have not managed to do so far or if I need to invest (which I really don't want to do) in a lower rez DSLR to take over when I want to go off tripod.

Maybe a Louisville slugger could be a better solution.:deadhorse: