Hey Kit... if you're going to Arizona better keep your visa with you (hope this translates for non-US citizens)
Best of luck with your gear selection journeyThe GetDPI Photography Forum
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I really hesitate to post this query... but here goes:
- Thread starter kit laughlin
- Start date
Best of luck with your gear selection journey
Guy Mancuso
Administrator, Instructor
You come to AZ you best be calling me. LOL
Yes, assuming you have respectable copies of both, they will hold up to the P45+ sensor.
Guy Mancuso
Administrator, Instructor
I would start with a good back . Couple suggestions for used and with tech cam in mind. P45+, P40+,P65+ and if you wanted to get into a older 9 micron the P25+. Than there is Leaf and some can suggest those units as well and this is keeping the C1 preference you hope to stay in. Pricing for used this is a good time for Phase and Leaf as the new backs start hitting the streets next week there will be a lot of upgrades going on so many dealers will have plenty to sell. Nice thing is with any of these backs you can go in two directions via the Body system and/or the Tech cam. So you have plenty of options here and plenty of tech cams to choose from. Biggest feature you will want is at least rise and fall than stitching of course. Each back will have it's pluses and minuses. First the P40+ and P65+ are identical sensors only the crop is the difference here . The P45+ is a older Kodak sensor with 1 hour exposure times capable but also limited to ISO which after ISO 200 i would not go there but the 40 and 65 can do a excellent ISO 400 and also ISO 800 with a little noise work in full resolution. We can certainly get into all those details and see what maybe YOUR best solution.
Don Libby
Well-known member
Interesting question and responses so far...
Working from the back out I'd ask these questions.
Do you regularly need to shoot long or semi-long exposures lasting longer than say 120 seconds? If so I recommend the P45+, if not either the IQ160 or IQ180. This has been my dilemma as I often find myself in dark/shady spots (old cliff dwellings, slot canyons etc) where I occasionally need a longer exposure. Right now I'm happy with the P45+ but have lust in my heart for either the IQ160 or 180. The rational side says the 160 will be more sufficient but the lust says go big or go home.
Just noticed Guy jumped in with back suggestions so I'll move on...
Most any of the backs would be very good for either a MFDSLR or tech cam. When speaking of tech cams I'd suggest the Cambo for a couple reasons - I use one and know it's capabilities and have full trust in it. The other aspect is the cost. While there are less expensive and much more expensive tech cams outs there I feel the Cambo sitting right in the middle gives you the most bang for the buck. Then there's the Mamiya/Phase glass for the Phase DF.
Getting into either or both systems will give you the all around systems you'd need. The slow going use of a tech camera and the faster shooting of a DSLR with AF and speeds up to 1/4000.
Working from the back out I'd ask these questions.
Do you regularly need to shoot long or semi-long exposures lasting longer than say 120 seconds? If so I recommend the P45+, if not either the IQ160 or IQ180. This has been my dilemma as I often find myself in dark/shady spots (old cliff dwellings, slot canyons etc) where I occasionally need a longer exposure. Right now I'm happy with the P45+ but have lust in my heart for either the IQ160 or 180. The rational side says the 160 will be more sufficient but the lust says go big or go home.
Just noticed Guy jumped in with back suggestions so I'll move on...
Most any of the backs would be very good for either a MFDSLR or tech cam. When speaking of tech cams I'd suggest the Cambo for a couple reasons - I use one and know it's capabilities and have full trust in it. The other aspect is the cost. While there are less expensive and much more expensive tech cams outs there I feel the Cambo sitting right in the middle gives you the most bang for the buck. Then there's the Mamiya/Phase glass for the Phase DF.
Getting into either or both systems will give you the all around systems you'd need. The slow going use of a tech camera and the faster shooting of a DSLR with AF and speeds up to 1/4000.
dchew
Well-known member
I was going to recommend the P45+ too, because of Kit's desire to "keep the wides wide" and stated MP desires. Kit also mentions architecture. Without knowing more about how important that is, I would certainly consider a technical camera and I think Don's Cambo analysis is a good one. You gotta try a technical camera first though. And different brands as well; even if it is only for an hour at a shop, or with someone else who owns one.
Personally I think they are wonderful, but there are significant sacrifices and
trade-offs.
Dave
Personally I think they are wonderful, but there are significant sacrifices and
trade-offs.
Dave
Don Libby
Well-known member
I really don't think there's a "wrong" tech camera especially with all the recent technical advances by the various companies. You have such a range of sizes and cost however the technical advantages over one another are getting small with each version.
The main consideration should be the digital back. While there's little to nothing out there that can beat a 60 minute exposure of a P45+ the image files of an IQ180 or IQ160 should knock yours socks off.
Dave brings up a valid point on tech cameras in general; they are a different way of shooting. Nothing is quick with a tech camera and you need to be a lot more deliberate in your setup. The rewards of using a tech camera is astounding.
Don
The main consideration should be the digital back. While there's little to nothing out there that can beat a 60 minute exposure of a P45+ the image files of an IQ180 or IQ160 should knock yours socks off.
Dave brings up a valid point on tech cameras in general; they are a different way of shooting. Nothing is quick with a tech camera and you need to be a lot more deliberate in your setup. The rewards of using a tech camera is astounding.
Don
I am sure that there is not a right one - or not one that is ideal for every application and occasion.
kit laughlin
Subscriber Member
What a learning curve!
To begin, I cannot afford one of the new IQ backs. Pity, but I need to be realistic here.
So, we are talking one of the older backs, and if I am going to make the jump to MF, I want to be able to shoot tethered, and check focus etc. on a big screen. My new quad-core MacBook Pro will be perfect for this.
This means one of the P+ series, right? I have read the Wikipedia entry on these backs, too.
So far in all my work so far (and talking architecture here) I have not needed more than 10" exposure time—but that is Nikon/Sony sensors, and lenses that usually I do not stop down more than ƒ8-11. I know that I will need longer exposure times if I am using a MF back and MF lenses, but let's say no longer than 30".
I am inclining to putting the major spending into the back itself. The way I am thinking now is that I can fit that back to the Phase DF body. Jack's lens suggestions make perfect sense.
So, let me get this straight: the P40+ is a newer, 1.25 crop factor, up to ISO 800, and the P45+ is a older sensor with a 1.15 crop factor, and good long exposure times but limited to ISO 200. If I were to get the P40+, and fit it to a DF body with the 28 lens Jack mentioned, what are the stitching options when interior wide angles are necessary? If I have this right, that 28 will behave like a 35, and I definitely need wider than that, regularly? Or would I need a tech cam body for that work?
And the old P25+ is a better crop factor than the P40+, if I have read the descriptions properly, and I assume people will be practically giving those away because they are only 25MP! Realistically, 25MP is sufficient for all of the paid work I do.
And in my net travels, I came across a Leaf AFi7 review. Any perspectives here on that body? Or is the Phase DF body a big improvement on that one, handling-wise?
Last points: I will definitely call you, Guy and Don, and we can arrange that later (mid-September is the first Arizona gig). I will read up on the Cambo bodies, too. I think getting the most flexible back first will be the best way to go. I will definitely need the option of ISO 800 for most of the work I do, so I think that means no to the P45+. And to Guy: I have been a monopod user forever (RRS clamp, L-bracket, and same setup on the heavy tripod). Thanks to all, and keep the suggestions coming! Cheers, KL
To begin, I cannot afford one of the new IQ backs. Pity, but I need to be realistic here.
So, we are talking one of the older backs, and if I am going to make the jump to MF, I want to be able to shoot tethered, and check focus etc. on a big screen. My new quad-core MacBook Pro will be perfect for this.
This means one of the P+ series, right? I have read the Wikipedia entry on these backs, too.
So far in all my work so far (and talking architecture here) I have not needed more than 10" exposure time—but that is Nikon/Sony sensors, and lenses that usually I do not stop down more than ƒ8-11. I know that I will need longer exposure times if I am using a MF back and MF lenses, but let's say no longer than 30".
I am inclining to putting the major spending into the back itself. The way I am thinking now is that I can fit that back to the Phase DF body. Jack's lens suggestions make perfect sense.
So, let me get this straight: the P40+ is a newer, 1.25 crop factor, up to ISO 800, and the P45+ is a older sensor with a 1.15 crop factor, and good long exposure times but limited to ISO 200. If I were to get the P40+, and fit it to a DF body with the 28 lens Jack mentioned, what are the stitching options when interior wide angles are necessary? If I have this right, that 28 will behave like a 35, and I definitely need wider than that, regularly? Or would I need a tech cam body for that work?
And the old P25+ is a better crop factor than the P40+, if I have read the descriptions properly, and I assume people will be practically giving those away because they are only 25MP! Realistically, 25MP is sufficient for all of the paid work I do.
And in my net travels, I came across a Leaf AFi7 review. Any perspectives here on that body? Or is the Phase DF body a big improvement on that one, handling-wise?
Last points: I will definitely call you, Guy and Don, and we can arrange that later (mid-September is the first Arizona gig). I will read up on the Cambo bodies, too. I think getting the most flexible back first will be the best way to go. I will definitely need the option of ISO 800 for most of the work I do, so I think that means no to the P45+. And to Guy: I have been a monopod user forever (RRS clamp, L-bracket, and same setup on the heavy tripod). Thanks to all, and keep the suggestions coming! Cheers, KL
Guy Mancuso
Administrator, Instructor
Kit p40 with a 28 mm is a effective 22mm lens in 35 land . Same lens on a p45 or p25 would like a 20mm. Personally I would go p40 you get a minute exposure but you get much better ISO up to a great 400 full res and I like the color better than the Kodak plus I would say a little more DR plus a 6 micron sensor and some nice added features. 6 micron will be a little better with moire which you may hit with interior work. Downside a little more of a crop. Go to Phase one site and see formats or I think Doug has them posted on Capture integration site.
PeterA
Well-known member
On ISO: 800 ISO is a big ask for any MF back from any maker sure you can use it - just like you can use low octane fuel in a Ferrari and then watch a VW Golf blast by and listen to your engine slowly seize up.
It would be a really good idea to test 800 ISO for the type of shooting YOU intend and then compare the actual files against 35mm cameras like the D3 if 800 ISO is as important as you say for your work - this alone might save you a lot of expense.
On use of wides on a tech camera: Depends on what you wish to shoot and why as well as the back. Alpa have made simple horisontal or vertical shift very easy now - this may be enough for you to deliver a stitched view with wider and better and easieer to post process merged image than the expense of an uber wide like Schneiders 24 or Rodenstocks 23mm. Avoid any micro lensed backs if you wish to go tech camera -even without tilt and swing - the wider lenses will deliver you unworkable colour shift.
Leaving aside the 800 ISO issue and given your preference for Capture One - you sound like a perfect candidate for a P45/P45+ back mated to a Mamiya camera body and perhaps their 28 and new 110 for portraits.
It is a good time to consider adding MF to your kit as the new IQ backs hit the market and people sell both older Phase One and other brands. The user interface will draw a lot of people into the IQ series.
Dont hesitate to consider an 'older Leaf 75 or 75s - which can probably be found for significantly less than P45's - you will love the out of the box colour from Leaf
If I were buying new - I think Phase One is the industry 'safe' bet today.
Good Luck and enjoy the ride.
It would be a really good idea to test 800 ISO for the type of shooting YOU intend and then compare the actual files against 35mm cameras like the D3 if 800 ISO is as important as you say for your work - this alone might save you a lot of expense.
On use of wides on a tech camera: Depends on what you wish to shoot and why as well as the back. Alpa have made simple horisontal or vertical shift very easy now - this may be enough for you to deliver a stitched view with wider and better and easieer to post process merged image than the expense of an uber wide like Schneiders 24 or Rodenstocks 23mm. Avoid any micro lensed backs if you wish to go tech camera -even without tilt and swing - the wider lenses will deliver you unworkable colour shift.
Leaving aside the 800 ISO issue and given your preference for Capture One - you sound like a perfect candidate for a P45/P45+ back mated to a Mamiya camera body and perhaps their 28 and new 110 for portraits.
It is a good time to consider adding MF to your kit as the new IQ backs hit the market and people sell both older Phase One and other brands. The user interface will draw a lot of people into the IQ series.
Dont hesitate to consider an 'older Leaf 75 or 75s - which can probably be found for significantly less than P45's - you will love the out of the box colour from Leaf
If I were buying new - I think Phase One is the industry 'safe' bet today.
Good Luck and enjoy the ride.
kit laughlin
Subscriber Member
Guy: thank you for that. And there is not a huge difference between 20 and 22.
PeterA: which Alpa body were you thinking of? From what I have seen, any body with this name on it is going to be out of my price range! And I was mentioning ISO 800 as the top sensitivity I have used in the last year for outdoor work (forests can get dark!).
I am inclining to a P40+ on a Mamiya body and just three lenses (including the 80 with the leaf shutter that Jack mentioned above).
regards to all, KL
PeterA: which Alpa body were you thinking of? From what I have seen, any body with this name on it is going to be out of my price range! And I was mentioning ISO 800 as the top sensitivity I have used in the last year for outdoor work (forests can get dark!).
I am inclining to a P40+ on a Mamiya body and just three lenses (including the 80 with the leaf shutter that Jack mentioned above).
regards to all, KL
PeterA
Well-known member
Kit - I was thinking of the 12STC - there are numerous threads on this new body in the forum do a search . If you merely wish to increase IQ versus 35mm - then your Phase One back choice mated to the lenses you mention would work for sure - and then you can always have the back mated to a tech camera down the track if that is what you need.
I think it is very important that you try the ergonomics of MF before you buy. Irrespective of how good any of the makers IQ is - the fact of the matter is that all the makers bodies do not give you the ergomic experience you may be used to with 35mm DSLR. A tripod /monopod in the field I think is mandatory unles you have the fattest of light - you will see this very quickly as you trial the systems.
In the studio with strobe/flash etc these systems are at their best.
I have been fortunate in being able to afford the luxury of owning/testing pretty much all the makers offerings - but a hobbyist has different imperatives to a working pro - and I would imagine a more rational approach to capital expenditure. Phase presents the most flexibility and the best software for MF professionals and this is a great reason to consider their backs despite the limitations of their current camera bodies.
I have ended up with my working/travel kit comprising M9/Alpa/S2.
As an aside- I dont really have any interest in MF legacy systems any more - and my Sinar / Hasselblad / Mamiya RZ / Contax systems are pretty much sitting there gathering dust. The S2 and its lenses is just a far easier system to use in the real world for me if I need 40 megapixels...
The lenses that Leica brings out are just better when mated to the ergonomics of their S2 body - it is such pleasure to use that really I doubt that the utility of my M system is required for anything other than its extreme portability - something which you probably dont need to concern yourself with.
Everything is somewhat of a compromise and nothing out there does it all - you will be able to get set for probably less than 1/3rd of what you had to pay 2-3 years ago.
I think it is very important that you try the ergonomics of MF before you buy. Irrespective of how good any of the makers IQ is - the fact of the matter is that all the makers bodies do not give you the ergomic experience you may be used to with 35mm DSLR. A tripod /monopod in the field I think is mandatory unles you have the fattest of light - you will see this very quickly as you trial the systems.
In the studio with strobe/flash etc these systems are at their best.
I have been fortunate in being able to afford the luxury of owning/testing pretty much all the makers offerings - but a hobbyist has different imperatives to a working pro - and I would imagine a more rational approach to capital expenditure. Phase presents the most flexibility and the best software for MF professionals and this is a great reason to consider their backs despite the limitations of their current camera bodies.
I have ended up with my working/travel kit comprising M9/Alpa/S2.
As an aside- I dont really have any interest in MF legacy systems any more - and my Sinar / Hasselblad / Mamiya RZ / Contax systems are pretty much sitting there gathering dust. The S2 and its lenses is just a far easier system to use in the real world for me if I need 40 megapixels...
The lenses that Leica brings out are just better when mated to the ergonomics of their S2 body - it is such pleasure to use that really I doubt that the utility of my M system is required for anything other than its extreme portability - something which you probably dont need to concern yourself with.
Everything is somewhat of a compromise and nothing out there does it all - you will be able to get set for probably less than 1/3rd of what you had to pay 2-3 years ago.
kit laughlin
Subscriber Member
Peter, thanks for that thoughtful reply. Much to read, and digest, and I will follow up on all the references in this thread so far.
I have a workshop to run in Italy (Piacenza); off June 2 and away for three weeks, and not sure of the quality of the internet there (last time I worked there, I had to sit on the steps outside my apartment to get any signal at all!). If my x100 arrives in time, I might have an image or two to post! Cheers to all, Kit
I have a workshop to run in Italy (Piacenza); off June 2 and away for three weeks, and not sure of the quality of the internet there (last time I worked there, I had to sit on the steps outside my apartment to get any signal at all!). If my x100 arrives in time, I might have an image or two to post! Cheers to all, Kit
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mediumcool
Active member
Kit, here is a shot from my old-ish 35mm Mamiya N on a 645AFD, first full frame, second a 100% crop (both screenshots from C1). I have recently built up a kit with 7 lenses + AFD + back for $7K AU (before the dollar went up!).
1/180 f3.5 Aptus 22 back @ 100 sensitivity.
Focusing is surprisingly easy with this lens.
kit laughlin
Subscriber Member
medium cool: very cool! If I may ask, how did you manage to find that back and body at such a great price? and is the body model "Mamiya 645AFD"? I will look this up, too.
Further, I am assuming that this back will produce files at least as good as the Sony A850 I am using in the studio; if anyone reading has impressions on this comparison, I will be grateful.
Thank you!
Further, I am assuming that this back will produce files at least as good as the Sony A850 I am using in the studio; if anyone reading has impressions on this comparison, I will be grateful.
Thank you!
mediumcool
Active member
Got the 645AFD on eBay from Japan for $581 (later models are quicker but I find it quite useable). The Leaf back was through LuLa from NYC (just under $5K). 35mm ($146), 50mm shift ($499) 70mm LS ($118) and 145 SF ($184) from US eBay, 45mm and 150mm from AU eBay years ago, 80mm macro from UK eBay ($189), and the 110mm 2.8 from B+H for about $150 (crap bokeh!). Took about two years to get it all together.
Understand the A850 is very good, but the Aptus has a creaminess combined with a crispness that I don’t see in 35 cameras (36 x 48 sensor, high bit depth @ 16 bits/colour and no AA filter all contribute). But not as sensitive as smaller cameras.
Mamiya 645D with 35mm N
"why the Leaf back?"
Hope this comes through. Its landscape work with a tele.... not quite what one would have thought with a long lens, but the back just allows you to shoot very delicate subjects. Leaf AFI 7II, Rollei 300 APO, 100 ISO.
Full size and 100% crop (PP in Silver Effects). In the larger file, the spider webs are sharp.
Hope this comes through. Its landscape work with a tele.... not quite what one would have thought with a long lens, but the back just allows you to shoot very delicate subjects. Leaf AFI 7II, Rollei 300 APO, 100 ISO.
Full size and 100% crop (PP in Silver Effects). In the larger file, the spider webs are sharp.
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mediumcool
Active member
Touch *snappy* for my taste, but delicacy is certainly in evidence.